Apr 10 2007
Guest Worker Program Preferred
The idea of pulling the 12+ million illegal workers (not criminals – those are a different story) out of the underground market and into the open is key to this nation’s security and health. Basically it is key to our existence. It is not surprising so many people understand the limitations we face in undoing decades of poor policies on immigrant workers. The policies in place today are basically this: some fool in DC pulls a number out of their grand posterior and determines that is how many workers we will give permits to. The rest will not get permits despite their history here, whether they kept their noses clean, whether they are an anchor to the community, whether they fill a niche without workers, etc. The number is arbritrary and devoid of any thought.
And based on this fantasy number some people are called ‘illegal’ and others not. Which is like saying we will hand out only so many licenses and if you didn’t get one you are a criminal if you drive to feed your family. It is insane to determine motives and intent based on this kind of test. America understands a better way to deal with this is to register workers who can stay employed and keep their noses clean. Violent criminal acts – just one – should get you booted and time in the jail of your native country (cheaper than us holding them). You pay taxes, you learn english, you do well. If you were illegal you pay back taxes with interest due and fines. It is simple and most Americans are behind the comprehensive Guest worker program:
More than four in five California voters support giving legal residence to illegal immigrants, according to a statewide public opinion poll to be released today.
By wide margins, the state’s voters also favor creating a temporary worker program to allow future immigrants to enter legally, increasing the border patrol and imposing stiff penalties on employers who hire unauthorized immigrants, the Field Poll found.
Those proposals are elements of a plan outlined by President Bush in the border city of Yuma, Ariz., on Monday, as he revived his call for comprehensive immigration overhaul.
Note the preference is a work permit – not amnesty or citizenship. 4 to 1 is a landslide in anyone’s book and this is coming from CA – a state swimming in immigrant problems and costs. The point is we either get the immigrants to carry their weight or we pay for them (either to stay or be rounded up, the cost to us is about the same). Look at the shift towards the Guest Worker program and realize this issue is over:
Support among California voters for legalizing undocumented immigrants rose to 83 percent from 75 percent last April, while 67 percent of respondents backed a guest worker plan, up from 60 percent a year ago.
The far/hard right lost this issue. They can either get on board or remain the minority. 83-17 is a route. 67-23 is not even close. And CA just is not THAT far away from the American mainstream. The shift is to move away from the far/hard right. They lost the Congress on this issue and it is clear America is moving away from them. Their candidates won’t even register in the Presidential races. Not with these numbers. They best rethink their positions, lest they find themselves as popular nationally as Dennis Kucinich.
AJ, I counted nine questions from you as your response to my questions. Answering a question with a question is NOT answering a question.
Oh, I see, your response of (besides of the obvious fact that if they have been here ten years we have records) is meant to be the end all to beat all of answers.
You are betting the farm that 80% of Americans think like you; want immigration reform with no answers to the problems that will come from a change in the rules. You are dead wrong. Americans want answers. They want the ability to make an informed decision and what you are proposing is like throwing speghetti against the wall and seeing if it will stick.
You and I have been down this road before and usually you wind up being so insulting that I swear I will never read your blog again. But you are informed on other subjects that interest me so I try again.
You think you, and the 80% you claim to belong to, are willing to tolerate amnesty (Amnesty: general pardon – Webster’s Dictionary). Is that why John McCain just changed his stand on illegal immigration. Is that why McCain has stated that at every whistle stop he makes, illegal immigration is the one thing that people want stopped?
You are wrong, AJ. I would hope that you would be honest enough to admit that even though your batting average is pretty good, you are striking out on this one.
Americans are tired of paying for illegal immigration and the excuse for an amnesty bill is to bring them out of the shadows is just that, an excuse. The Republicans are pandering for cheap labor on the backs of the American taxpayer and the Democrats are pandering for a whole new voting block. The illegals who are here to hurt us will remain in the shadows and if you really cared about these people, you would be more interested in their nations doing something for them.
We can’t send 747s to pick up all the poor people of the world.
05,
There are unanswered questions with a “secure the border” only solution. At least a guest worker program addresses some of them.
Effectively disqualifying the illegals is a non-starter towards any workable solution.
“Pandering to” underclass resentment “on the backs of the” American economy won’t gain enough votes to win a general election either.
Macker, no one is pandering to “underclass resentment”. If that were the case, how come so many Tejanos are against any legalization of “illegals”?
I can tell you why. They are already the underclass in a lot of communities. For a lot of them, an education was not a priority of their parents. Keeping body and soul together was. Now, this generation, and their children are becoming educated after being Americans for generations. But there is still a substantial number of Hispanics who are in their 30’s, 40’s and 50’s that are not educated because their parents were migrant workers and they are the ones who are being affected by the diminishing wages caused by illegal immigration.
Example: a friend, let’s call him Juan (not his real name) never got out of high school because his family were migrant workers and he changed schools every year. At age 16, he went to work to help support his family. A smart guy, who was struggling to support his own family by driving a dump truck hauling road gravel. He was, time after time, put out of work by illegals with Carolina driver’s licenses. I helped him get information from a community college that offered GED classes and he took them and passed with flying colors. Now he is working in Iraq for KBR, earning more money than he ever thought possible. But his story is not rare and there are just so many jobs to go around. As long as we are willing to support employers who break the law, the situation will never change.
So we make all the 12 million legal. Currently they are earning substandard wages. What do you think will happen? They will be replaced by more illegals who are willling to work for substandard wages and we will have the current ones now on welfare and being an even greater drain on the social structure. Or do you really think that employers who now hire illegals for cheap wages will suddenly get a heart and decide to pay them an honest wage since they are all now legal?
Make 12 million legal and you can sit back and watch the stampede as more will come just waiting for the next amnesty.
and your 20% minority
I’m not in the minority, I’m one of the ones that wants laws enforced and borders secure. That’s about 90% of American citizens.
If the presidents proposals at Yuma had even a 1% chance of being passed and enforced it would be nice, but I give it no chance at all when all the other things come to light, Americans won’t stand for them.
It baffles me why so many seem to be willing to let the immigration laws slide, but want others enforced. Some people don’t care if the illegals are here as long as they live in somebody else’s neighborhood and all the crime takes place ‘somewhere’ else.
macker, you said “There are unanswered questions with a “secure the border†only solution.”
and what would they be? I know of no one that advocates a ‘secure the border’ only. Does the fence around the White House work or not? I think it could be demonstrated that it keeps the casual traffic down quite significantly.
.
FE,
I suspect we are more in agreement than not.
By reducing the demand with a guest worker plan, we would take pressure off the border.
By accomodating the law-abiding workers, we would enlist their help and make them taxpayers. By giving employers adequate tools, employers would favor legals over illegals.
The White House fence has law enforcement on both sides.
I agree with you, and I know the Mexican side has no law enforcement.
I am very much for the guest worker program for all law abiding people.(and I’m not including illegally crossing the border as being a crime, tho it is, but it’s not their fault). As I’ve already said, the guest worker deal as proposed by Pres Bush would be great, but we’ll never see it. I will support it anyhow. The only thing I am opposed to is amnesty and citizenship. The citizenship is okay as long as they get in the same line as everyone else and complies with all laws about becoming a citizen. The only people that should be excluded are known felons or records that we know would clearly disqualify them.
The only problem is, I don’t see how anyone can ever process all the paperwork that 12+million illegals will encompass, without taking shortcuts, and if we are taking shortcuts, we’re not complying with laws.
The Pres’ proposal as stated in Yuma would prohibit any Social security benefits having been earned while illegal. That’s the first time that’s been stated. That’s great. The tamper proof ID cards would have to be obtained at the illegal’ s expense. Lot’s of good things, but I suspect the devil’s gonna be in the details.
Let’s wait and see what is in it when it’s actually introduced and hope it’ll be something to make the country proud.
.
If you haven’t figured it out FE, let me clue you in. AJ is hispanic, Terrye is Hispanic, Geraldo Rivera is hispanic. Odd co-incidence, all of these people have the same view of allowing unlimited mexican immigration into the U.S. Hmmmm, what is that all about? But if we even bring it up, we are RACISTS! You know, whenever someone tries to tell you the argument is already over, that is because they don’t have a leg to stand on and they are trying to get out of the fight before that becomes obvious.
I have two words to say about this immigration bill, BORDER FENCE! Remember last year president Bush signing that border fence bill? I believe there were many of us who said that it was total crap, it would never be built, and the only reason he signed it was because he knew they would never fund it and it was to placate us who were against his amenesty plan. Who was right about that? NOT AJ!
Let me demonstrate how AJ lies about this subject, first, he sets up the false premise that those people who don’t agree with him are for deporting 12 million people. We all know that would be an impossible and unneccesary mess. There are many of these people we are happy to have. It is an argument where there is no dissagreement. But hey, that makes us look bad so what the hell. Second, put up some selective statistics to show that everyone pretty much agrees with him. Pretty easy to do. If you take a poll in some parts of CALI, you’re actually going to end up polling a vast majority of ILLEGAL ALIENS! You aren’t going to hear a GOD D*MN thing from the people who are watching the Mexican flag raised above the U.S. flag in front of post offices and school buildings in LA. Insert officer Barbrady, “Nothing to see here, move along, move along.” Next, he lauds the fallacies of immigration reform. I believe he said:
“If we get immigrants to pay taxes they carry their weight…. Duh.”
This is a shining example of what a gullible idiot he is. THEY DON’T WANT TO HAVE THE PRIVELEGE OF PAYING PAYROLL TAXES,…… AND CAR INSURANCE,…..AND VEHICLE REGISTRATION,……..AND EDUCATION COSTS,…..AND HEALTH CARE COSTS,…..AND FULL RENT ON AN APARTMENT, ETC, ETC, ETC!!!! They would rather get subsidized by the American taxpayer for all of this and still not run the risk of having a identity that could put them behind bars when they get caught breaking the law. They LIKE BEING ILLEGAL AND UNIDENTIFIABLE! There is great profit and advantage in that. What are the benefits of legalization? Then they could get all these benefits in their real name! Tough choice.
The fact is that AJ and his minions are looking at this problem like a bunch of emotional assholes! This is a situation that has to be dealt with in a rational reasonable way. When MILLIONS of people start walking into your backyard and squatting, you have a choice, you can either submit to them and live their way, or you can fight them and end up getting slaughtered. This has been the lesson of history for thousands of years and yet some feeble minded idiots still don’t get it. Any nation that does not control its borders is not a nation.
It’s obvious to me that none of you have ever had to move your family from one area to another because the fixed income of your relatives only permitted them to live somewhere that was over run by violent mexicans and they had to get out. I’ve had to do that twice in the last six years and it looks like I’m going to have to do it again very soon. Why, because mexicans hate our damned guts! They come up here believing they really do own the place and get snotty as hell when they don’t get their way. When I read some of the moronic naive crap that some of you post on this site, it makes my blood boil! If it was your kid, and your mom, you wouldn’t put up with this shit for a New York second! But because it’s on the other side of the country and most of you only see the cheap labor side of it, you hypocritically act like you’re doing someone a favor when what you’re really doing is benefiting from slave labor. Oh how damned proud you should be!
I think the problem is that too many people are looking for easy and perfect solutions and there are not any. The hardliners think they can nit pick any plan, even the current one in which the president has moved in their direction, without answering any questions of their own.
Their answer is either enforce the laws or secure the borders. Well those little sound bites might look good on a Tshirt but they are not going to do a thing to deal with the problem in a realistic fashion. Nothing.
It is like saying Just Say No to drugs. It is like saying we can deal with drug addiction and prostitution and domestic violence by just enforcing the laws. obviously not.
I read that in the last year there has been a big increase in arrests, and more border patrol people are on the border than ever before. But none of that deals with the people already here and if the hardliners insists on hysterically following a course that is not acceptable to most people and is doomed to failure, they will just lose what influence they have left.
And bikderken I got as far as you calling me hispanic and I quit reading. I am not hispanic. I had ancestors who fought in the American Revolution named Wilson, I had ancestors who hopped a boat from Ireland to escape the Great Hunger, I had ancestors who walked the Trail of Tears, I had ancestors who escaped political persecution in Germany and I have had relatives who served in every war….including the one in Iraq and the Civil War and I don’t need you telling me what I am.
I will tell you this, if Republicans keep saying stuff like that they can kiss the White House good bye. Hispanics, and I mean American citizens who pay taxes, go to work, work in law enforcement and the military deserve to be treated with respect and if you can not manage that then you will lose their votes the same way Goldwater lost the votes of blacks and that will be the end of the majority status of Republicans.
And you know something? There is violence everywhere and no one is saying criminals should be allowed to go free to harass people. I don’t care if it is an inner city where the gangs run or rural areas where meth has turned white teenagers into felons…crime is crime.
Bikerken:
I wrote a nice long post that has disappeard, but I want to make something plain to you: the fact that I prefer a humane and intelligent immigration policy does not mean I am hispanic. I am not. Not a bit. However, I am part Indian, Cherokee to be exact…so when are you going to give me my land back?
Bikerken,
Try losing on an issue with some decorum and class. One more bout of name calling and you are outta here.
Sorry Terrye, but the Cherokees didn’t protect their land and their rights and got overrun by the immigrants, kinda like what’s going on now. The Americans are not protecting their land and their rights and are being overrun by the immigrants.
You’ll never get your land back, The Americans ???
“if the hardliners insists on hysterically following a course “
Why do you insist on calling people that want to protect America, hardliners? Isn’t America worth protecting? Isn’t that a ‘middle of the road’ value? When did protecting the country become something only ‘hardliners’ want? I want my ‘rights’ as an American citizen. If the illegal aliens want the same rights I have, let them become an American in the manner prescribed by law. This country has always been a nation of laws, why circumvent those laws to accomodate a bunch of illegal aliens?
“Their answer is either enforce the laws or secure the borders. “
Why not both?
“The hardliners think they can nit pick any plan, even the current one in which the president has moved in their direction, without answering any questions of their own.”
Nit pick? Don’t they deserve some answers to their questions?
Since when did wanting to know ‘the details’ become ‘nitpicking’
When you enter into a contract, don’t you want to know the details?
Look, if the alternative to giving the country away is to remain in the minority, then I would rather be in the minority than in a majority that gave the country away. My rights would be the same either way, but one way would have a better standard of life, and it is not the way without the country as we know it.
be in minority, no rights
overrun by illegals, no rights
what’s the difference? How about enforcing the laws, securing the border and maintain our standard of living. Sounds good to me.
So the solution to regaining the majority status is give the country away and make all illegals, legal? Count me in the permanent minority, if I have to sell out and compromise my principles to gain a status that wouldn’t be worth having.
Hardliner? no, middle of the road, plain old still proud to be an American.
So…how’s the wall coming along, guys? Think it’ll get built before the current flood of immigrants shrinks to a trickle?
So enforcing the law is a sound byte for a T-shirt!?! This is why there is no confidence in the presidents plan. For six years now he hasn’t done a damn thing to enforce the border, he’s even had his justice department prosecute those who have. We know he is just jerking our chain with these recent crackdown activities to get everyone to go along with his new plan. But the fact is that when the new law goes into effect, and it will, it will be ignored too and we ALL know that. IT”S A FARCE!
Strata, you can declare all day that the argument is over, and kick anyone out that disagrees with you, but it ain’t over by a long shot. I’ll tell you this, when this idiotic bill is passed and we have a new flood of illegals come across the border not paying attention to the new law either, it will definitely ratchet up the agrument again.
Who was it that once defined insanity as “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”? This is exactly what we are doing here!
You people are hopeless. Not even close to reality. No one is saying the laws should be ignored, but you have to show some common sense.
No, it is not just about a Tshirt. It is about whether or not it is physically possible to round up 12 million people and deport them..what would that entail and what would it cost and even if you did build your wall, what then?
it is about answering some hard questions with policy decisions, not just saying something like enforce the laws like it was a mantra that would magically get the deed done.
Let me get this straight, if you want to break the law, just get enough people to do it with you so that it would make it difficult to enforce then no one would care? Well, that’s a novel idea. Wonder if I could get 12 million people to refuse to pay income taxes? If I could, it would be insurmountable to ’round them all up’ so they would get away with it.
Just ‘common sense’ all righty……………