Sep 22 2009

When Do We Use Water Boarding On Najibullah Zazi?

Major Update 8:15 AM, 9/23/09: Damn, I was hoping I might not be right on the multiple, independent cell strategy I outlines below, and why it will take time to actually stop all the attackers. But some news out today confirms my fears:

The investigation indicated that three distinct teams of men may have been organized in connection with the alleged terror plot and federal officials worry that plot may still be active.

I’ll ask again, when does it become time to use procedures we have used before (even on our own military personnel as part of their training)? Many more updates below! - end update

Some people may think I am cruel or sick, but considering the fact water boarding is done on our military personal to get them prepared to resist breaking under capture, and I have heard of college hazing rituals that are worse, I think this nation better consider the use of water boarding on the suspected terrorist under custody. Or else this nation is about to face a harsh lesson in reality.

I do not think it was coincidence that the Democrats were trying to declare defeat in Iraq just as the tide was turning on al Qaeda with the shift of Sunni allegiance away from the terrorists to the new Iraqi government. Liberal timing just sucks.

Al Gore goes to a global warming conference and the place gets hit with a blizzard. A liberal president is elected and the economy tanks, making a takeover of health care impossible and raising taxes political suicide.

How about the fact the liberals get in power after an unforeseen decade of global cooling due to a reduction in solar activity. What are the odds of that one? Hint, hint .. nudge, nudge.

I mean, the universe is trying to send these fools a message and they are just not paying attention. Heck, there has been global warming discovered on Mars and some of the moons of Jupiter. Universe to Earth – is there anyone at home?!

But all kidding aside, the fact is the arrest of three suspects in what could be a repeat of the London and Madrid al Qaeda attacks (not to mention Mumbai, India) has not apparently rolled up all the terrorists:

Authorities investigating a suspected al Qaeda plot to set off bombs in the U.S. are warning local law enforcement agencies that hotels, stadiums and entertainment complexes remain attractive targets for attacks.

Two bulletins from the FBI and the Homeland Security Department were sent to local law enforcement agencies Monday, the same day three men were arraigned on charges of lying to the FBI in connection with the bureau’s investigation of the purported plot. The bulletins did not mention the recent arrests.

The scope of the suspected scheme remains unclear. Authorities have said the investigation centers on “several people” in the United States and Pakistan who wanted to detonate improvised explosive devices in the U.S.

This has got a bunch of people spooked,” said a Homeland Security official who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the investigation. “They don’t believe they got them all; they are trying to track down the rest of the guys who are operating in the cell.”

Boy, if there ever was a moment to go to the enhanced interrogation techniques that broke the 9-11 terrorist master minds and stopped previous attacks, it is now. When you have people willing to commit suicide to execute mass murder of innocents, the liberal fantasy about dainty little rules for being polite and respectful when questioning suspects is laughable.

When President Obama’s Attorney General announced to the world he was going on his little witch hunt against the interrogators (who were following orders, and guidance reviewed and authorized by a team of government lawyers) he sent a very important signal to al Qaeda as well. It was not just the CIA interrogators and FBI field agents who got the message to tread lightly or else go to jail. al Qaeda detected an opening.

al Qaeda knows it will lose personnel on the next attack if it is going to get some attackers through. On 9-11 (and at the WTC I bombings in 1993 under Clinton), al Qaeda knew liberal foolishness and paranoia about conservatives in the government monitoring their kooky conversations had left huge blind spots in our defenses.

Many Bush era intelligence leaders in the US admitted that 9-11 was able to happen because the terrorists, once in the US, were free of the kind of law enforcement scrutiny they had to evade outside the US. The US always monitors our dangerous enemies. The difference was prior to 9-11, once terrorists were in America,we tied our hands and did not allow the NSA or CIA to tip off the FBI to some potentially dangerous people amongst us. When we detected the 9-11 highjackers in Hamburg we could (and did) alert the German Polizei and intelligence forces. When those terrorists flew into the US we could not tell the FBI and we lost the trail. It was the clearest case of liberal paranoia leading to insanely dangerous policies ever seen in this country.

al Qaeda knows our guard has been up since 9-11, and that we keep a close eye on all sorts of things (people, money, etc). On 9-11 all but one of their operatives got through and the attacks went off with devastating results. This time, they know they will need to throw a lot of cells at us in a coordinated manner, knowing they will lose some or most – but they only need a few to get through.

As the law of terrorism goes: the terrorists only have to get lucky once, we have to be right 100% of the time.

When the Obama administration announced to the world it was – in essence – going to put back up some blinders, this gave al Qaeda a window where they had a better chance to get some attackers through our defenses. If Najibullah Zazi is playing for time and not cooperating, he is doing his part to buy time for the other attackers to get past our law enforcement nets.

At some point we need to know what is coming. At some point we need to push Zazi to expose the others. At some point we need to do what it takes to safe guard our people.  And each in turn the terrorists will play the game of delay to buy more time. No one person in the US will know all the players. If al Qaeda is planning a large scale attack on soft targets, it will be independently run cells, all waiting for a signal to begin the countdown clock.

Something like a speech from al Qaeda’s number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, predicting the fall of President Obama. Who just coincidentally happens to be in New York with world leaders.

If bombs go off, AG Holder and the POTUS will have a lot to answer for.

My previous post on Holder’s reckless witch hunt is here

Update: This is why trying to stop attacks of this nature while in progress will not work – screening will not work:

A quart-sized container of homemade explosives is cheap, deadly and difficult to detect — and that is exactly why the type of chemical bomb feared to be at the heart of an ongoing terror investigation worries law enforcement so much.

The same chemical components were allegedly at the heart of a failed plot to blow up commercial passenger jets leaving England for America. That plot was based, according to court evidence, on amounts of chemicals small enough to fit into soda or water bottles.

In a laboratory setting, a quart of the material exploding can destroy the entire lab, said Watts.

“They don’t blow the walls down, but everything in the lab can be ruined,” he said.

Nothing over 4 ounces – recall your airport screening requirements. Think water bottles, camel-back water systems for runners and bikers, sodas, groceries, coolers, …

The reason we cannot carry a 12 ounce bottle of water on a plane is because of what it can do to the plane. Think of what 30 people with these things could do in a 30 minute window one morning during rush hour, or at high school football games on a Friday night. We can’t sit around and hope they expose themselves if they are here.

Update: This mess was caused by someone in the NYPD attempting to use the New York Imam Afzali to gain information on targets clearly already under surveillance:

A decision to enlist a Queens imam in an effort to develop information about the man at the center of a long-running cross-country terrorism investigation backfired earlier this month.

Several law enforcement officials have said the imam’s disclosures went a long way toward forcing their hand in an extremely sensitive investigation of a possible Qaeda plot. The situation left them scrambling to conduct raids and arrest the suspect sooner than they might have otherwise, a development that they said could make it harder to identify others involved and develop evidence against them.

Several officials — all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because much of the investigation is classified — have said that the inquiry, which had been under way for months, could well have continued, tracking the communications, meetings, plans and associates of the suspect, Najibullah Zazi, 24.

And one official said that the public nature of the new phase of the inquiry would probably require more work and more resources to accomplish its goal: to determine whether a bomb plot was far along and to identify its target and the operatives involved.

This is really disturbing. I’m not convinced the Imam did anything but try to awkwardly help the NYPD, but he did tip off the suspect. The problem now, as admitted by all these sources, is to find the rest of the iceberg ASAP. This is not the time for being hesitant.

Anyway, look at all the dots out here folks

Update 8:20 AM, 9/23/09: Some more frightening details here:

The alleged Al Qaeda terror thugs involved in the plot to bomb the city tried to rent a ‘Jumbo Sized Super Mover’ U-Haul truck in St. Albans, Queens.

Detectives were combing Queens storage facilities on Monday for stockpiled explosive chemicals that Al Qaeda terror thugs planned to use to bomb New York, sources said.

At the same time, the Daily News has learned that prime terror suspect Najibullah Zazi has confessed he was a jihadist hell-bent on murderous mayhem, the sources said.

“Operation Nexus” took on an extra urgency after raids on Queens apartments Zazi visited turned up knapsacks and cell phones.

This is not going too smoothly here.

20 responses so far

20 Responses to “When Do We Use Water Boarding On Najibullah Zazi?”

  1. Redteam says:

    I’d go along with the waterboarding thing.

  2. crosspatch says:

    This is not good.

    US troops to retreat from Taliban strongholds

    A top US military officer in Afghanistan has ordered his commanders to pull troops out of areas where NATO fought bloody battles with the Taliban over the past months.

    Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal said the move was because of the realization that the areas were not going to be brought under government control anytime soon, CBS News reported on Tuesday.

  3. crosspatch says:

    OOps, must have blown the link tag. Try this.

  4. Frogg1 says:

    This article was from earlier this month:

    Is Another 9/11 Set to Unfold
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/print/705328180/Is-another-911-set-to-unfold.html

    Information as the New Arms Race An official report last week reveals weaknesses in our effort to prevent another 9/11.
    The report admits the pre-9/11 problems of gathering and sharing data continue.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574424811724030976.html

  5. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by AJ Strata. AJ Strata said: new: When Do We Use Water Boarding On Najibullah Zazi? http://bit.ly/alVmm [...]

  6. crosspatch says:

    Forget my link above. That is an Iranian site. It is probably bogus.

  7. SallyVee says:

    You’re not cruel or sick AJ, you are merciful, perfectly healthy and of sound mind.

    Only in the addled brains of America-hating, uber Leftists do the “rights of terrorists” exist.

  8. WWS says:

    I have a strong suspicion that under Obama, Najibullah will be given the comfy chair:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY

  9. colin says:

    AJ,

    What, exactly, do you mean by “independent” cells? Usually, “independent”, in this context, is referring to “unconnected to the global network” and I do not think that is the case in this situation. “Dispersed” or “decentralized” cells probably is a more accurate discription, but I still think it’s too early to even go that far. There may be a “mastermind” behind this plot. All the plots of this type in the past, the 3/11 attack, the 7/7 attack, the attack on the transit system in Mumbai, even the aborted Heathrow plot, all were planned by a single “mastermind” somewhere in the global network (in the case of 7/7 and Heathrow, Rashid Rauf is thought to be the main player), so I think that term “independent” can be a little misleading. It makes this sound like another “lone-wolf” style attack, or a “wanna-be” plot. This sounds much more serious.

    I don’t think you were trying to imply that, but that’s just what “independent” has come to mean anymore when talking about terrorist attacks.

    Still, it would show a frightening degree of sophistication if the cells were to operate separately within this country, based upon a pre-approved plan of action, without knowledge of each other. That would show a degree of operational security at al Qaeda has not, to this point, exhibited. It would also mean that our traditional intelligence gathering methods domestically may be ineffectual in the future.

  10. Mike M. says:

    There’s another fact that AJ has not mentioned.

    You don’t need suicidal jihadis for a bottle-bomb attack. Just plant them and leave.

    It makes recruiting a lot easier.

  11. penguin2 says:

    No, I suspect we are not ever going to be able to “roll up all the terrorists.” The Obama administration is trying to put America back to sleep. Seems like only the nightmare of an actual attack will awaken the people again. The memories of our people seem to be short-lived. It is the Clinton years all over again. The naivete of some and the willful disregard of others, will bring us another 9/11 and worse. AJ, you are clearly pointing this out, this is not people’s wild imaginations or lunatic conspiracy theories.

    Do you think there are some (in this country), that actually want another attack on this country? Does our current government not see the writing on the wall? World events clearly show us that the writing will not stop.

  12. AJStrata says:

    Colin,

    When I used ‘independent;’ I meant they have no knowledge of each other’s members or plans. They cannot rat each other out.

  13. kathie says:

    I appreciated a little levity, as things seem so dark in so many areas of our National policy as well as domestic policy. It feels overwhelming most of the time. A big laugh was good. Thank you.

    Seems that with the opening ceremonies of the UN, people got in front of themselves and acted sooner then they wanted. I guess there was alot of pressure to button this thing down before the Iranians and Libyans started to arrive.

    I hated everything about Obama’s speech at the United Nations today. What a jerk, he is so full of himself he treats our history as if it began 9 months ago, and his history is so supper that all will love us under his leadership, his new, wonderful, pious, idealistic, shining Country that he now presides over. What crap, what audacity, what sanctimony. Is the guy not tall enough to stand on his own, or must he stand on the body of a former President that he stomps to the ground, in front of the world body. The guy is a disgrace.

  14. [...] When Do We Use Water Boarding On Najibullah Zazi? Sphere It Share and Enjoy: [...]

  15. Toes192 says:

    May [my wife] waterboarded me twice [I am not a liar] I can report that it’s really the s**ts! …
    Here’s what happened…
    .
    Laid down in the bathtub…
    May soaked & rung out so it was somewhat wet… a thin washrag… put it over my face…
    .
    I IMMEDIATELY … reflexively… closed the airway through my nostrils… just intolerable…
    .
    I laid very still… quiet… it was possible to breath through my mouth… probably indefinitely… as I [slowly and deliberately] inhaled the misty water along with air…
    .
    Then… my sweet lovey Thai [hating every moment] sprayed water onto the washrag to soak it …
    .
    Her macho… tough… Marine … husband … lasted 20 +/- seconds [Yes, we stop-watch timed it ]
    .
    You are gonna talk…
    Will you lie? As the dopey argument goes… you will say anything so as not to get waterboarded again… Do those peeps think interrogators are morons? Whew… They will confirm… verify… find 2nd sources to back-up whatever is said… and…
    .
    Ahem… Mr. Toes192… since you lied to us… you are going to be waterboarded again…
    .
    Toes192 opines that truthful statements and information of everything the subject knows will be forthcoming in very short order…
    .
    Everyone knows that … everyone if they are honest with themselves…
    .
    So we did it again to see if I could improve my time… Nope… Every bit as cruddy the 2nd time as the first… [Opinion alert]… I do not see how one could train to resist …
    .
    Is it torture? You have to be kidding me… I sleep fine… no flashbacks… no nightmares… nada… However, I… don’t… want… to… do… that … again!
    .
    Disclaimer and advice to all… DO NOT ANYTHING LIKE WHAT I DESCRIBE TO YOURSELF OR ANYONE ELSE… Youngsters… adults… DO NOT DO IT ! I have described my anecdotal experiment for your education only and you should NEVER attempt [EMPHASIZE] ANYTHING like this at home or anywhere else… This was only my personal experience… YOU could seriously injure your mind and/or body so don’t do it !!!!

  16. Mike M. says:

    We don’t need to waterboard anyone.

    All that is needed is exposure to the Barney the Dinosaur theme music.

    After a couple of hours, the subject will confess to anything. :-)

    Seriously, I would bet that the laptops will prove more useful sources of information.

  17. Toes192 says:

    Mike M… I wouldn’t even dispute that laptops would/might be more useful sources of info…
    .
    If that is your premise, however…It does NOT follow logically … that waterboarding would not ALSO be useful…
    .
    btw… Looking forward to reference that all terrorists we have captured have had laptops that we obtained info from…
    .
    and… that all the info they knew was on those laptops…

  18. Frogg1 says:

    I don’t think waterboarding will do any good now that all that stuff is out there in hte open (no state secrets for us). In fact, I bet they all just got back from taking “How to Survive Waterboarding 101″ class.

  19. [...] the potential danger of a new al Qaeda cell in the USA and a planned coordinated bombing attack, which I outlined in depth here, was not so far fetched after all. Zazi has been indicted on charges of attempting to carry out a [...]

  20. Toes192 says:

    One more small note on waterboarding myself… I had the luxury of knowing that all I had to do was lift the washrag off my face… I can only imagine a mindset if it were for real…
    .