Apr 10 2006
Immigrants Divided On Immigration
A new poll actually reflects old news regarding the divide within the immigrant community regarding the various aspects of the immigration issue:
Contrary to scenes of hundreds of thousands of united Latinos marching across the country in support of immigration reform, a sizable number of the ethnic group opposes the marches and strongly objects to illegal immigration.
But their voices have largely been muffled by the massive protests, which will continue Monday as tens of thousands of demonstrators are expected to take to the streets of Tucson, Phoenix and other cities nationwide.
They are voicing their support of a Senate bill that would give an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants living in the country a chance for U.S. citizenship.
“That’s the objective of the marches — to give the impression that all Latinos are for allowing the illegals to become citizens,” said Phoenix resident Lionel De La Rosa. “Well, I’m not.”
The 71-year-old Texas native and Vietnam veteran said he favors punitive measures more in line with the immigration bill passed by the U.S. House in December that would have made it a felony to be in the United States illegally.
Just like the country overall, there is no consensus in the population, except that we have a problem that must be addressed. The mass protests are backfiring big time. Last thing you want to do is yell at your hosts for not providing enough handouts when you were never invited in the first place.
The reason there is no consensus is our leaders have not really provided much leadership, they are following the mob mentality from the left or right or middle and not leading. And the media is incapable of fostering debate of ideas since they are agenda driven from the left. The immigration reform must accomplish the following:
(1) Document foreigners working here in the US and have a background check on all who work here.
(2) Control the borders by building the wall to stop the undocumented flow. We can have open borders without them being uncontrolled.
(3) Make the guest worker program dynamic to fit the economic need and stop pretending Congressman know what the magic number of guest workers are each year in each industry. During times like now where unemployment is so low we should be able to absorb more workers. But at the same time (seeing the state of affairs here in West Virginia) we need programs that bring jobs to those pockets where there are still massive problems.
(4) Support the phased transition to documented workers based on time here EMPLOYED (not time here getting hand outs).
(5) Deport any non citizen who commits a violent crime (here or elsewhere) and block them from ever returning to our country.
(6) Proide a central database of registered foreign workers do companies do not have anymore excuses about hiring undocumented workers, opening them up to serious fines.
(7) Establish a health insurance pool for immigrants subsidized, if necessary, by their taxes – not ours! We need to stop the use of our emergency rooms as their health plan.
(8) Eliminate the constitutional clause making anyone born here a US citizen.
(9) All immigrants documented under the new system cannot become citizens of this country ahead of anyone currently in the process, except through service in the US armed forces.
(10) Establish a program for assimilating (teaching English) immigrants on the way in and streamlining their departure (selling real estate, etc) so that we ease the process in and out, making it a process that works as we want it. Again, the only subsidizing of this can come from the taxes paid by the aliens (and probably by the companies who utilize this cheap labor – they should pay for the cost benefits to some degree).
Those are my ten key features for a successful immigration policy.
Addendum: John McIntyre has laid out his views on what must be done at RCP. I don’t think the damage he alludes to is the fault of Republican leaders. The new Hispanic conservatives were going to clash with the nationalistic isolationists in the party. We conservatives have always been playing with fire with the likes of Pat Buchanan and Michael Savage. It is Neanderthals like Savage who we should dump while embracing the middle class, religious, hard working Latinos.
Walls work both ways. They not only can keep people out, but they can also keep people in. I don’t like that notion at all. Better idea is to increase the Border Patrol and to add more surveillance technology.
This could be an open invitation to France-esque problems. This clause is important – if only to ensure that children of immigrants have a stake here. If they don’t, if they are born into some permanent underclass, like those in France, then we could easily get the Balkanization we are trying to prevent.
Thanks for the comments Harold. We must agree to disagree on these. I am not worried our borders will become a prison. In fact I was pointing to the ‘open borders’ we have now for visitors and guest workers and our ability to travel at will. But we need to have people ‘check in’ when they come here.
11,12 , or however many millions come in to American illegally.
Anyone have any data on how many (other than the very high %
of illegal immigrants we have in our jails) are being held here and can’t leave?
People in Cuba routinely steal boats to attempt to come to America. I watch the news closely, for reports of boats being stolen in America, so that people who claim Castro is so great, can make their way to Cuba. 40 some years later, I have seen no report of stolen boats making their way to Cuba. Did I miss any reports?
Build the wall Now
I agree about Savage and Buchanan. I think one of the things that has disturbed me, even disillusioned me to some extent has been the political oppurtunism and demagoguery assoicated with this issue.
For instance the bill that failed would have allowed some illegals to become citizens after they paid fines and back taxes and had background checks and after they spent over a decade in other programs monitored by the government. But so many Republicans and people on the right said this was just an amnesty program which gauranteed citizenship in short order. I thought that the lefties were the ones who lied or colored the truth or stretched things to make a point. But a good deal of the rhetoric I have heard on the right has been completely hysterical. Amnesty seems to be anything other than mass roundups and people in cattle cars or buses.
If we say these people are just criminals, nothing more or less then we have to give them due process and lawyers and trials, what is more we have to explain why it is if they are just criminals like bank robbers or child molestors that we have failed to enforce the laws for all these years.
Obviously it is not that simple. We need to secure the border, and offer some means to get these people legal and accounted for and paying taxes. And of course, any violent people should be shippped back home pronto.
We do not have to give them due process any more than terrorists.
They are crimimals stop playing word games.
They may not all be murderers but they have broken our laws.
If they do not follow our laws why should we.
I don’t want to get them legal, I want them out.
We need immigration on an as needed basis.
If we stop allowing them to artificially interfere with wages after time it will stabilize.
Then we can see where there is a need and then fix it.
But until we seal the borders all our speech is moot both yours and mine.
Mexico has no right due to proximity to flood our country. It is pure discirmination to allow them to break our quotas. Without that this will just go on until we fracture.
We are no longer a melting pot, one only has to look at the crowds.
Their phrase is “Si Se Puede” right?
How hard is that to say in english?
They have no desire to assimilate and never will.
Bloody:
I am not playing word games. Of course we have to give them due process if they are criminals. That is what the Constitution says, remember it?
If we catch people crossing the border we can detain them and turn them back but some of these people have been here for years. How do we even know who they all are or where they are? Are you just going to kick down doors and drag millions of men, women and children off to the cattle cars? How many will you have to shoot? Or do you get a perverse joy thinking of mowing down wetbacks? Do you have any ideas the numbers of lawyers who are salivating at the thought of it?
We could have enforced these laws and we did not, in fact we did the opposite. I agree with AJ to a large extent but some of the hateful, mean spirited and spiteful stuff I am hearing out of the right makes me glad I remained an Independent and did not register Republican. I was going to, but this kind of rhetoric changes my mind.
BTW, the Mexican government supplies a good deal of the water for the southwest, the deal was signed during the Truman administration. Right now a leftist [who has the support of Chavez] is running against Fox’s party which is thought to be too far to the middle for them.. If the left wins, Chavez and his commie friend in Mexico will control almost a third of the oil coming into the US along iwth a lot of that water.
We are neighbors, like it or not and while I think we need far better border security and an updated rational immigration policy all this hate mongering and Mexcian bashing can backfire in a lot of ways.
Bloody:
BTW a number of those people you despise have died in Iraq wearing the uniform of the US military… and I knew several of those people you say have no desire to assmilate who served in Viet Nam as well.
A full third of the population of California is hispanic and many of those people have been in this country longer than my family has. And obvioulsy most of them assimilated. You are playing judge, jury and executioner for an entire race of people based on some backward kind of racial stereotyoping.
What they lack, is grace – or should I say, gratitude? I was much more sympathetic, before the outrageous display of corrupt character, in the protests. Heres’ what I said at first:
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2006/03/not-against-pro-illegal-immigration.html
Since then, I’ve just gotten disgusted.
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2006/04/10-of-population-of-mexico-is-in-us.html
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2006/03/bad-tactics.html
And so on.
Here’s the point. Remember when you were a kid, and someone took cuts? Remember that sense of outrage, at selfishness and unfairness? Remember how you hated liars who tried to make themselves sound right? Those feelings were correct, and pure.
And now they want to vote.
Jack H
There are a lot of pictures of today’s protests. I see signs saying” vote
Democrat in 2006¨¨–How can illegal immigrants be voting?
But then I notice; in Georgia, a major Democratic effort is to insure that no one has to show a legal ID card to vote. However, if you don’t show a legal ID card, you will not be allowed to buy beer in Georgia. Why are we
enforcing laws concerning who can buy beer, but not laws on who
is allowed in the United States, or who can vote in the United States.
I see that Sen Kennedy is speaking at a immigration rally. What can a US senator say to illegal immigrants? Why were Democrats so eager to send Elian
Gonzalez back to Cuba, (after his mother died trying to get him to freedom), yet want these 11, 12 million (or probably double those figures now ) illegal immigrants here. Could it be that without valid
ID for voters, no one knows who voted. Does anyone really believe
that people who live illegally in a country think voting illegally in that country is a serious crime. Does anyone really believe that any other
country would let millions of people, who were in that country illegally, stay in that country-let along talk about making them citizens. Millions of immigrants have come to this country legally,
allowing those who don’t to stay makes a mockery of every single person who followed the rules. But even worse, allowing more illegals
to come makes a mockery of every single person who gave their life to defend America against our enemies. Who will defend America when there are no more Americans?
Who does your Senator represent, citizens or illegal aliens?
Si no podemos (or, don’t mess with Dobbs)…
Governor, were you talking about me …? If so, be a man, Governor, use names……
Agree with you TerryE. There is no better proof that one has assimilated than their decision to serve with our armed forces.
Terrye
Please stop with this they have joined our army.
That is about as useful as me stating many more have joined our prison culture.
I despise people who will not fight for their own country and then come here complain and demand we change ours.
There are differences in these immigrants today and yesteryear.
Oh I do despise traiterous democrats and their pandering for illegal votes.
As a matter of fact they are guilty of treason and few see it.
But there is always that clause in the Declaration of Independence!
BE WEll AND SAFE ALL
AJ,
Your thoughts on Policy of immigration are fine.
But First Second and third
Secure the Border.
Determine a true need of workers.
Then execute it based on need not wants.
I have voted for Bush twice and would do so again over Kerry the traitor.
Better the Devil you know.
But he is wrong on the work no one else will do.
Let the market decide the wage.
I have said it before, how is signing a trade agreement and the senate ratifying it a free market.
If there is a need then fill it legally.
I do not doubt there is but I want it filled using logic not an emotional mob.
The Immigrant Song…
Two views on immigration from good friends of this blog; David Smith at Contrarian Views looks at the economics of illegal immigration:
I keep reading and hearing about how big business benefits from illegal immigration and is therefore against any ty…