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	<title>Comments on: A Day Of Thanks (Not Moaning &amp; Whining)</title>
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	<description>High Flying Political Debate</description>
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		<title>By: The Anchoress â€” A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-473772</link>
		<dc:creator>The Anchoress â€” A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-473772</guid>
		<description>[...] Strat is taking a moment to thank President Bush for the good stuff he&#8217;s done. Point Five Blog has a satirical idea on how to win in &#8216;08 by losing in &#8216;06 complete [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Strat is taking a moment to thank President Bush for the good stuff he&#8217;s done. Point Five Blog has a satirical idea on how to win in &#8216;08 by losing in &#8216;06 complete [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chickenhawk Express</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6712</link>
		<dc:creator>Chickenhawk Express</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 22:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6712</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;National Review Attempts to Stir Up Conservative I...&lt;/strong&gt;

The people who once said how refreshing it was to have a President with moral integrity and who did not &quot;rule by the polls&quot; are demanding that the President do just the opposite. It is ridiculous and childish....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>National Review Attempts to Stir Up Conservative I&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>The people who once said how refreshing it was to have a President with moral integrity and who did not &#8220;rule by the polls&#8221; are demanding that the President do just the opposite. It is ridiculous and childish&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: granmary</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6702</link>
		<dc:creator>granmary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 18:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6702</guid>
		<description>AJ, feel free to come by my house  anytime &amp; check to see if I have broken the law.  I just had  new hardwood floors installed &amp; will be glad to show you my receipts &amp; cancelled check for the payment, as well as putting you in touch with the person who installed them. I can assure that there are  millions of us who would never consider breaking any law. I have had one citation in my life [ letting my auto tag expire by one day- simple forgetfulness on my part] I did not even contemplate going to court to try to get out of the fine. I forgot,which was my responsibility, &amp; so I paid the ticket. Apparently you think everyone is a lawbreaker or you would not have mentioned &quot; which laws you are breaking&quot;  rather than &quot;if you have broken the law&quot; That says a lot about you, that you assume everyone [ like you, maybe?] routinely breaks the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AJ, feel free to come by my house  anytime &amp; check to see if I have broken the law.  I just had  new hardwood floors installed &amp; will be glad to show you my receipts &amp; cancelled check for the payment, as well as putting you in touch with the person who installed them. I can assure that there are  millions of us who would never consider breaking any law. I have had one citation in my life [ letting my auto tag expire by one day- simple forgetfulness on my part] I did not even contemplate going to court to try to get out of the fine. I forgot,which was my responsibility, &amp; so I paid the ticket. Apparently you think everyone is a lawbreaker or you would not have mentioned &#8221; which laws you are breaking&#8221;  rather than &#8220;if you have broken the law&#8221; That says a lot about you, that you assume everyone [ like you, maybe?] routinely breaks the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Right Wing Nut House</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6698</link>
		<dc:creator>Right Wing Nut House</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 17:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6698</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;MY OBLIGATORY RESPONSE TO THE PRESIDENT&#8217;S IMMIGRATION SPEECH...&lt;/strong&gt;

	I didn&#8217;t really feel like writing about the President&#8217;s speech because, quite simply, I didn&#8217;t feel that I had anything useful to add to either side of the debate. The President struck all the right notes but he did it in a desultory...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>MY OBLIGATORY RESPONSE TO THE PRESIDENT&#8217;S IMMIGRATION SPEECH&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>	I didn&#8217;t really feel like writing about the President&#8217;s speech because, quite simply, I didn&#8217;t feel that I had anything useful to add to either side of the debate. The President struck all the right notes but he did it in a desultory&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6695</link>
		<dc:creator>crosspatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 16:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6695</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Eliminate the government-supplied (i.e., taxpayer funded) freebies for non-citizens â€” ALL of the freebies, including â€œemergencyâ€ medical, education, food stamps, SSI (thatâ€™s one that I do resent) and any form of welfare. Move this financial burden to the responsibility of the activist organizations demanding rights for â€œundocumented immigrantsâ€ (thatâ€™s an oxymoron, by the way).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree with the sentiment of this but in practice, I am not sure.  The reason I am not sure is that I am thinking of children.  It isn&#039;t their fault that their parents came here illegally.  When you start denying things like this you begin to hurt innocent people who didn&#039;t do anything wrong.  I would agree with not qualifying for SSI but what do you do?  Ship Daddy back to Mexico?  What happens to the wife and kids left behind here? 

Economically we are going to need those workers.   When the boomers start to retire, we will have more people leaving the workforce and collecting benefits than we have entering the workforce and paying taxes to pay those benefits.  While Social Security claims the trust fund won&#039;t run out for several years, what they aren&#039;t telling people is that there is no trust fund.  The trust fund is in government bonds.  Social security lent the money to the government who spent it and they hold IOUs.  When it comes time to start dipping into that trust fund, the federal government is going to have to start covering those bonds which means that money will drop right into the federal budget deficit.  In other words, for every Social Security trust fund bond cashed, we are going to need to find someone else to buy a bond to cover it.

One measure to head that off is to create a guest worker system and get these illegals paying taxes into the Social Security system.  Those guest workers might actually save Social Security.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Eliminate the government-supplied (i.e., taxpayer funded) freebies for non-citizens â€” ALL of the freebies, including â€œemergencyâ€ medical, education, food stamps, SSI (thatâ€™s one that I do resent) and any form of welfare. Move this financial burden to the responsibility of the activist organizations demanding rights for â€œundocumented immigrantsâ€ (thatâ€™s an oxymoron, by the way).
</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree with the sentiment of this but in practice, I am not sure.  The reason I am not sure is that I am thinking of children.  It isn&#8217;t their fault that their parents came here illegally.  When you start denying things like this you begin to hurt innocent people who didn&#8217;t do anything wrong.  I would agree with not qualifying for SSI but what do you do?  Ship Daddy back to Mexico?  What happens to the wife and kids left behind here? </p>
<p>Economically we are going to need those workers.   When the boomers start to retire, we will have more people leaving the workforce and collecting benefits than we have entering the workforce and paying taxes to pay those benefits.  While Social Security claims the trust fund won&#8217;t run out for several years, what they aren&#8217;t telling people is that there is no trust fund.  The trust fund is in government bonds.  Social security lent the money to the government who spent it and they hold IOUs.  When it comes time to start dipping into that trust fund, the federal government is going to have to start covering those bonds which means that money will drop right into the federal budget deficit.  In other words, for every Social Security trust fund bond cashed, we are going to need to find someone else to buy a bond to cover it.</p>
<p>One measure to head that off is to create a guest worker system and get these illegals paying taxes into the Social Security system.  Those guest workers might actually save Social Security.</p>
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		<title>By: az redneck</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6693</link>
		<dc:creator>az redneck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 16:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6693</guid>
		<description>Been with you from your beginning, AJ.  You continue to say things well.  I agree with most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Been with you from your beginning, AJ.  You continue to say things well.  I agree with most.</p>
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		<title>By: Dadmanly</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6687</link>
		<dc:creator>Dadmanly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 15:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6687</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The President on Immigration...&lt;/strong&gt;

The President gave his speech on immigration last night, and effectively charted out what is being widely described as the Â“middle ground.Â”...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The President on Immigration&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>The President gave his speech on immigration last night, and effectively charted out what is being widely described as the Â“middle ground.Â”&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: chez Diva</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6682</link>
		<dc:creator>chez Diva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 14:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6682</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Moonbats Can Now Be Relieved&#8230;...&lt;/strong&gt;

of their duties. The reinforcements have arrived. The battle against the big bad evil Presidente Jorge Arbusto will now be handled by the righties against amnesty for illegal immigrants. You heard me moonies, grab your tie dyed t-shirts, your stinky bi...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Moonbats Can Now Be Relieved&#8230;&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>of their duties. The reinforcements have arrived. The battle against the big bad evil Presidente Jorge Arbusto will now be handled by the righties against amnesty for illegal immigrants. You heard me moonies, grab your tie dyed t-shirts, your stinky bi&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MerryJ1</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6677</link>
		<dc:creator>MerryJ1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6677</guid>
		<description>Two solution suggestions:

(1) Pass The Fair Tax Act, which abolishes the Internal Revenue Service, eliminates the present federal income tax -- including the approximate 22% embedded tax on every product we buy (taxes imposed on producers and added to the item price before it gets to market) and the double taxation of American business (foreign businesses pay US taxes only on product sold here; American corporations have to pay US taxes on their product sold here and abroad, as well as paying taxes to the foreign government(s) involved -- that, as much as lower labor costs, is the reason many businesses have moved their corporate headquarters to foreign ports).

The Fair Tax, a sales tax, brings the entire underground economy into the taxpaying body -- not just illegal aliens but also crooks, con-men and scam artists, drug dealers, hookers, bookmakers, even counterfeiters. Plus, with elimination of punitive taxes, billions of dollars now playing hide-and-seek from the IRS in offshore and Swiss accounts, will be put to work in investments which fund business growth and expansion, create jobs and new opportunities for everyone.

(2) Eliminate the government-supplied (i.e., taxpayer funded) freebies for non-citizens --- ALL of the freebies, including &quot;emergency&quot; medical, education, food stamps, SSI (that&#039;s one that I do resent) and any form of welfare. Move this financial burden to the responsibility of the activist organizations demanding rights for  &quot;undocumented immigrants&quot; (that&#039;s an oxymoron, by the way).

Let these organizations do private fund-raising to pay for temporary needs of illegals -- Americans are extremely generous about voluntary donations to help those in any kind of need; but removing the governmental buraucracies will lead to weeding out those who come in merely to beat the system or, worse, the drug smugglers and other crooks and creeps.  In short, force these podium-pounding activists to put their OWN effort and money where their mouths are.

It&#039;s their cause. They should be willing to raise the revenue to pay for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two solution suggestions:</p>
<p>(1) Pass The Fair Tax Act, which abolishes the Internal Revenue Service, eliminates the present federal income tax &#8212; including the approximate 22% embedded tax on every product we buy (taxes imposed on producers and added to the item price before it gets to market) and the double taxation of American business (foreign businesses pay US taxes only on product sold here; American corporations have to pay US taxes on their product sold here and abroad, as well as paying taxes to the foreign government(s) involved &#8212; that, as much as lower labor costs, is the reason many businesses have moved their corporate headquarters to foreign ports).</p>
<p>The Fair Tax, a sales tax, brings the entire underground economy into the taxpaying body &#8212; not just illegal aliens but also crooks, con-men and scam artists, drug dealers, hookers, bookmakers, even counterfeiters. Plus, with elimination of punitive taxes, billions of dollars now playing hide-and-seek from the IRS in offshore and Swiss accounts, will be put to work in investments which fund business growth and expansion, create jobs and new opportunities for everyone.</p>
<p>(2) Eliminate the government-supplied (i.e., taxpayer funded) freebies for non-citizens &#8212; ALL of the freebies, including &#8220;emergency&#8221; medical, education, food stamps, SSI (that&#8217;s one that I do resent) and any form of welfare. Move this financial burden to the responsibility of the activist organizations demanding rights for  &#8220;undocumented immigrants&#8221; (that&#8217;s an oxymoron, by the way).</p>
<p>Let these organizations do private fund-raising to pay for temporary needs of illegals &#8212; Americans are extremely generous about voluntary donations to help those in any kind of need; but removing the governmental buraucracies will lead to weeding out those who come in merely to beat the system or, worse, the drug smugglers and other crooks and creeps.  In short, force these podium-pounding activists to put their OWN effort and money where their mouths are.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s their cause. They should be willing to raise the revenue to pay for it.</p>
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		<title>By: The Zero Point</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6671</link>
		<dc:creator>The Zero Point</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 11:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6671</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Border Derangement Syndrome...&lt;/strong&gt;

It&#039;s quite astounding really, how so many conservatives are flat out embarrassing themselves with petulant whining and their nonstop attacks on the President over immigration.This isn&#039;t even about disagreement.&#160; We regularly disagree with fellow...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Border Derangement Syndrome&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>It&#8217;s quite astounding really, how so many conservatives are flat out embarrassing themselves with petulant whining and their nonstop attacks on the President over immigration.This isn&#8217;t even about disagreement.&nbsp; We regularly disagree with fellow&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6668</link>
		<dc:creator>crosspatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 07:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6668</guid>
		<description>My gut says Bush&#039;s speech tonite helps improve his numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My gut says Bush&#8217;s speech tonite helps improve his numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-3#comment-6663</link>
		<dc:creator>crosspatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 05:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6663</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
What about the ag workers? Some of these people have been coming over for years to work and there are farms and vineyards that would go bellyup without them. But they tend to be migrants, and so it is hard to track them. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes and in the area where I grew up they were a major part of the workforce but it was seasonal.  We are seeing something different now.  We are seeing builders putting up developments with illegal labor.  Look at the kitchen staff of most restaurants.  

Traditionally they were ag employees, but not anymore.  They are in all service industries and chances are good they are working &quot;under the table&quot; for cash.  One way to even the playing field would be a national sales tax.   Imagine if there was a 3% national sales tax and a 2% decrease in income tax.  It would just about be a wash for legal workers (because that extra 1% would be accounted for in deductiona and other adjustments to income) but it would be a direct 3% hit on the cost of living of illegals and anyone else making undocumented money.  The result would be that &quot;under the table&quot; workers would need a raise to maintain their quality of life while legal wokers would see no impact.   At the same time we would start collecting tax revenue from illegal workers, hookers, drug dealers, under the table workers of all sorts.  The impact would be a lot larger than documents would suggest because it would tax an undocumented economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
What about the ag workers? Some of these people have been coming over for years to work and there are farms and vineyards that would go bellyup without them. But they tend to be migrants, and so it is hard to track them.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes and in the area where I grew up they were a major part of the workforce but it was seasonal.  We are seeing something different now.  We are seeing builders putting up developments with illegal labor.  Look at the kitchen staff of most restaurants.  </p>
<p>Traditionally they were ag employees, but not anymore.  They are in all service industries and chances are good they are working &#8220;under the table&#8221; for cash.  One way to even the playing field would be a national sales tax.   Imagine if there was a 3% national sales tax and a 2% decrease in income tax.  It would just about be a wash for legal workers (because that extra 1% would be accounted for in deductiona and other adjustments to income) but it would be a direct 3% hit on the cost of living of illegals and anyone else making undocumented money.  The result would be that &#8220;under the table&#8221; workers would need a raise to maintain their quality of life while legal wokers would see no impact.   At the same time we would start collecting tax revenue from illegal workers, hookers, drug dealers, under the table workers of all sorts.  The impact would be a lot larger than documents would suggest because it would tax an undocumented economy.</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-2#comment-6662</link>
		<dc:creator>crosspatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 05:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6662</guid>
		<description>Maybe I could put it another way.  Imagine a person who is very strong in the areas of individual responsibility, smaller government,  anti-nanny state but is also strong in the area of social tolerance.  That person is perfectly willing to accept gay marriage and legal abortion but also wants lower taxes and workfare rather than welfare.  That is the position of many in the middle.  Many of the Republical ideals concerning government and defense appeals to them but the social agenda turns them off.  They don&#039;t have a home with the Republicans or the Democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I could put it another way.  Imagine a person who is very strong in the areas of individual responsibility, smaller government,  anti-nanny state but is also strong in the area of social tolerance.  That person is perfectly willing to accept gay marriage and legal abortion but also wants lower taxes and workfare rather than welfare.  That is the position of many in the middle.  Many of the Republical ideals concerning government and defense appeals to them but the social agenda turns them off.  They don&#8217;t have a home with the Republicans or the Democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: Terrye</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-2#comment-6661</link>
		<dc:creator>Terrye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 05:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6661</guid>
		<description>crosspatch:

What about the ag workers? Some of these people have been coming over for years to work and there are farms and vineyards that would go bellyup without them. But they tend to be migrants, and so it is hard to track them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>crosspatch:</p>
<p>What about the ag workers? Some of these people have been coming over for years to work and there are farms and vineyards that would go bellyup without them. But they tend to be migrants, and so it is hard to track them.</p>
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		<title>By: crosspatch</title>
		<link>http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812/comment-page-2#comment-6660</link>
		<dc:creator>crosspatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 05:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1812#comment-6660</guid>
		<description>Oh, I know the independents are more conservative, but they tend not to be rabidly attached to the issues that the religious right wing of the party is so attached to.   I simply have a hunch that a candidate that doesn&#039;t appear to be married to Falwell&#039;s might appeal to those who have registered Independent.  Otherwise they would have registered Republican. 

If I were a Democrat, the pro-choice or gay rights issues wouldn&#039;t have caused me to leave the party over the past say, 5 years.  Those have been Democratic Party issues for a long time.  It would be the Democrat&#039;s great leftward swing over the past several years and their blame America first crap that would cause me to leave.  

Look at it this way ... a non-religious woman who is pro-choice but strong defense ... what party does she sign up for?  What about a gay hawk?    What about an older conservative Democrat?  A Rudy could win those over at the expense of possibly losing the support of the most hardcore of the religious right.  The trade might be worth it in numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I know the independents are more conservative, but they tend not to be rabidly attached to the issues that the religious right wing of the party is so attached to.   I simply have a hunch that a candidate that doesn&#8217;t appear to be married to Falwell&#8217;s might appeal to those who have registered Independent.  Otherwise they would have registered Republican. </p>
<p>If I were a Democrat, the pro-choice or gay rights issues wouldn&#8217;t have caused me to leave the party over the past say, 5 years.  Those have been Democratic Party issues for a long time.  It would be the Democrat&#8217;s great leftward swing over the past several years and their blame America first crap that would cause me to leave.  </p>
<p>Look at it this way &#8230; a non-religious woman who is pro-choice but strong defense &#8230; what party does she sign up for?  What about a gay hawk?    What about an older conservative Democrat?  A Rudy could win those over at the expense of possibly losing the support of the most hardcore of the religious right.  The trade might be worth it in numbers.</p>
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