May 17 2006
Olive Branches Springing Up Everywhere
Seems the fevered tempest over immigration may finally be abating on the right. There are too many posts to link to so I will just link to the latest one I read concerning the new perspective. It seems the over the top anger by some has finally forged a coalition of common sense. Rick Moran has a great piece up describing a path forward.
Is it possible to find a middle ground on the right in the immigration debate that can unite both sides and forestall the eventuality of schism and holy war that would lead to disaster at the polls in November for Republicans?
Perhaps. If people were to get off their haunches and sit down like the friendly, rational, adults that we truly are, it may not be too late to salvage something from this mess. Let’s examine what we have in common before looking at where we part company.
My only quibble (and it is only a quibble) is he (and Tony Blankley who he references) attempt to imply there needs to be an order. Do this ‘first’ kind of talk. My suggestion is to jettison that concept right away. We need to pass a comprehensive package and get it all started.
Each plank in the plan will have things that need to be accomplished and they need to be done in parallel. Each will take time. I would guess we could build the fence and barriers along the border before we can get the guest worker program up and the 12 million undocumented workers checked and documented. But don’t kid yourselves. All of this will take years to do. President Bush will definitely leave office with all these efforts in progress. Don’t worry about the order, get them all started so we can get them done as soon as possible.
And no Terry this isn’t an internet rumor, unless all the U. S. Senators who were debating itin the Senate & who passed the ammendment to lower the numbers are all so silly as to debate an internet rumor. News programs, anyone?
Crosspatch, if this ammendment with the full figures is not covered on your news programs, I highly recommend watching CSPAN’s live coverage of the Senate debates. I am a news/ history junkie. I don’t rely on “news” when I can actually see for myself what each & every House & Senate member really said, & how they actually vote. I won’t be able to participate in any discussion here tomorrow, as my hubby will be having surgery. I will however be watching CSPAN in the hospital room & will be back here soon.
Terrye, the populations of Mexico, Canada, & Cuba are irrelevent to the discussion we are having. These numbers are legal immigration quotas pertaining to legal guestworkers/immigrants from all over the world.
Senate OKs Border Fence, Mulls Citizenship – David Espo, AP…
And there was much rejoicing!
Olive Branches Springing Up Everywhere – A.J. Strata, the Strata-Sphere
Sessions Amendment Passes – John Hinderaker, Power Line
83 to 16 – Hugh Hewitt
……
Gran:
They are not irrelevant. If the idea is that nothing short of loading up all the hispanics and sending them back to Mexico is going to solve this and I have to listen to conspiracy theories about Mexico trying to invade and take over the southwest, then obviously the population of Mexico is a factor. After all you are the one who brought up numbers in the first place.
As was mentioned above a significant number of people who are undocumented did not sneak across a border. It is estimated by the INS that about 33% came in legally and did not leave. And many of them came from Asia and other countries. But they are not the ones the hardliners do most of their ranting about.
Terrye, why do you call anyone who doesn’t agree with the President on his amnesty plan a “hardliner”?
You want me to give the President’s plan a chance. And if it creates havoc, more so than we already have, then what? Another amnesty? Ballots in seven languages? Bi-lingual teachers for Chinese, French, Italian, Spanish, Cantonese, German? How far do you want to take this?
You are still operating on the assumption that all those who were marching for immigration reform want to become citizens. When are you going to wake up and realize that is not what they want. If they wanted so desparately to become Americans they would have come here legally to begin with. Are you even aware of the organizations who promoted the marches? Try International ANSWER, a Marxist based organization who wants a one world order and no nation states. How about the Communist Party of America? Did you notice them at the marches?
You say that seasonal workers will go home. Tell that to the citizens of Pennslyvania who now have hoards of illegals that came to pick fruit and never left. Tell that to the towns in New Mexico and the Texas valley that had illegals come to work the fields and now have student populations that are 50% illegal.
Where do you live, Terrye? Do you even know how much it is costing you in taxes to educate illegals? I can tell you what my state pays: we have 4,000,000 students in Texas. Twelve of every hundred students in Texas is illegal or the child of an illegal. Multiply that by an average of $6,800 per student for education and you get a whopping THREE BILLION DOLLAR BILL to educate those who should not even be here. That is per year.
If someone wants to become an American citizen, great. Come on. But do it legally. Go back to where you came from, get in line like everyone else who wants to come here and show us your good faith.
If that is being a “hardliner” then I guess I fit the bill. And perhaps I can send you my tax bill that pays for the education, incarceration, medical care and social welfare for illegals in my state.
Nowhere in any Senate document does it mention 200 million. I am asking where that number came from and so far I have not gotten a straight answer out of anyone. In my past experiance, it usually means it is a number pulled out of thin air. It is actually quite a silly number as was pointed out here. Even if the entire population of Mexico came here, as was pointed out in a previous post, it would only amount to half the 200 million number.
The 300,000 number in guest workers is a fairly small number compared to how many visas we issue annually. People need to put those numbers into perspective. People talk like immigration and increasing the number of visas is a bad thing. It isn’t. We are going to NEED more immigrants. Legal ones.
Terrye, try using some logic in your arguments. You don’t seem to be able to grasp what anyone else is saying, I replied to a question re: the 200,million number that someone asked about. I did not bring it up. I was simply letting the questioner know what the # was & where it came from. It is obvious that all your arguments are accusations of what other peoples motives are. The numbers we were discussing had nothing to do with the number of illegal immigrants, they were regarding legal immigration. It probably would be wise for you to arm yourself with some facts & a lot more logic if you wish to engage in a battle of ideas. Your arguments seem to consist of accusing “hardliners” of “ranting” I think you would feel right at home with the moonbats, who use the same terminology as weapons in their struggle to define deviancy down. Please, if you find watching the news too much strain,maybe you should remember the old saying- “it is better to keep quiet & be thought a fool, than to open your mouth & remove all doubt. I did not & never have said to round all the mexicans up & send them back.I never said the mexicans were trying to take over the southwest states. I also never said that all the illegals in the country sneaked across the mexican border. I don’t care where the illegals came from, to me that is irrelevent. What is relevent is that they are illegal regardless of where they came from. The conspiracy theories you speak of are all in your own mind apparently because I don’t think you intentionally lied about what I said. I take no responsibility for you having to listen to what is only in your head!
If you don’t stop the flow, everything else congress does will have to be done again, and again…
I doubt if anyone cares which method is used to stop the flow as long as the flow stops…..
Crosspatch, you are right that we need LEGAL immigrants. Second there is no Senate document, because the Senate Immigration Bill is still being debated. As I said earlier in answer to a question, one item being debated today was the number of legal immigrats we need to have come in per year to maintain our immigration priorities. The current # is around 226thousand. the subject for debate today was whether to increase that yearly # to 325,000 with a 20% increase per year for the next twenty years. The ammendment to decrease the # to 200,000 per year w/ no 20% increase is the one that passed. Unless all the news reports & the actual debate in the Senate were figments of my imagination, these numbers were not pulled out of thin air. If you know your Senator’s web address, you can go there,where I am sure they will have a way for you to find information on pending legislative debates. That way you can verify what is happening for yourself.
Gran:
Logic?
I don’t even need to read your post to know what you say. I have heard it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
I don’t consider the plan amnesty. Illegal entry is not first degree murder. for heaven’s sake. Talk about a lack of logic. To the hardliners anything short mass deportation is amnesty.
I wish people would get this through their heads: they can have a plan that has more border security and earned citizenship or temporary worker or they can have zip. That is it. And letting the same Democrats who would kill your plan win insures even more defeat. It would seem to me that if people really are that worried about it all they would get the best plan they can rather than demanding the impossible and getting nothing.
And btw, we are at war and if people abandon Bush because he failed to do their bidding the Democrats will surrender. So much for loyalty.
Gran:
If you want someone to read your post learn about periods and commas and paragraphs.
Terrye, I guess for you, compromise is fine. And I see that you chose not to answer my question: how much per year does it cost you to educate illegals in your state? If you don’t know, I can direct you to a web site that will give you that information.
Another question: if it currently costs every American family $800 in taxes to support illegals, are you willing to have those taxes increase to $2,000 per year? Because that is what is going to happen.
OK, so we won’t call it amnesty. Call it a pig in lipstick. I don’t care. But if I rob a bank and then I am given a pass on that crime and allowed to keep the money, what would you call it?
These illegals broke our laws. They will be allowed to stay, allowed to keep their jobs, allowed to continue to drain our economic base in social welfare. No jail time, no having to go back to prove good faith, nada. So it will take them 11 years to gain amnesty. So what? There are people in the Phillipines that have waited 28 years to gain entry to the U.S. Tell me this is not putting the current batch of law breakers ahead of the line.
Oh, yeah, they have to pay a $2,000 fine and reimburse the government for all back taxes. I know that is going to happen.
When that pig in lipstick flies.
“The current # is around 226thousand.”
Current number of what is around 226 thousand? Currently the US takes in about a million immigrants a year and many times that in non-immigrant visas including student and work visas.
Guest workers would be here on a work visa that expires after some period of time. They won’t be getting a green card or permanent resident status. *Some* will be given a *chance* to apply for citizenship. For example: If you have been in the US for 20 years and your child is serving in the US armed forces, chances are good you will be given a *chance* to apply but there is no guarantee your application would be accepted. The vast majority of aliens in this country do not have a green card (permanent resident), most are here on temporary visas, some as long as 5 years.
Of those 11 million illegals supposedly in this country (that number seems large to me, you would need three cities the size of Los Angeles to hold that many people, I don’t know where that number came from either) I would guess *maybe* a million or two would qualify to try for citizenship.
What I *did* find was this which explains things a little better and what was proposed would have allowed 103 million people over the course of 20 years.
And this interesting tidbit:
Now keep in mind that “amnesty” doesn’t mean citizenship or even a chance to get citizenship, it is just a change in status to legal visitor. You get a work visa, not citizenship or even residency.
Also keep in mind that the number of people on Social Security is going to go from 40 million to 80 million in that same 20 year period, an increase of 40 million. So an increase of 106 million workers is about right (actually a little low) what is needed to support 40 million additional people on Social Security and keep the system solvent.
This whole thing is really designed to increase the number of taxpayers so that the federal government doesn’t go broke when the boomers retire. This is really the price you pay for not touching the Social Security system. You have three choices: cut benefits (third rail!), increase taxes (third rail!), increase workers paying taxes (EUREKA!, I have found it!). You can’t increase workers biologically because A: it is already too late (kids conceived today won’t be through college and into the workforce until 25 years from now) and B: the US fertility rate is falling.
Jacking the hell out of immigration is the only way we are going to fund boomer retirement.
retire:
Talking to you people is like talking to a wall.
How much does it costs to take care of the poor and elderly? How much does it take to help take care of the working poor who do not make enough money on their minimum wage jobs to even afford health care for themselves or their children?That is the cost of poverty.
The whole point here is reform. That is what it is about. Trying to reform the policies and build a wall and increase border security to deal with this on a long term basis.
Most of these people came here to work. Do you know what food would cost if there were not migrants working the fields? Do you want food shortages? Higher prices? Labor shortages? Inflation?
The problem with people like you is that you just complain. You do not fix things, you make impossible demands, assume anyone who does not do everything you want them to do has no desire to deal with the problem at all and in the end you don’t accomplish anything. You say they broke the law as if they were mass murderers. Driving on a expired license is against the law, but we don’t shoot people for it. We let them pay the penalty and get on with their lives. We do not brand them for life.
Accomplishing things requires compromise and cooperation. It has nothing to do with what I do or don’t like, it is life.
Terrye, There you go again, listening to the little voices in your head. Again, why not try arguing the points I made,instead of jumping to conclusions. Did I say illegal immigration is akin to first degree murder? Yes, you do show a lack of logic on that point, glad you realize it. I always read posts before I reply to them, instead of jumping to the conclusion,[ do you have ESP,by chance?] that Ihave heard it over & over & over…. Oh, so surrender to the dems in order to keep them from killing the bill. Surrender saves us from even greater defeat, now I see. Great logic! And btw Bush will be President until Jan.’09 no matter what the outcome of the immigration issue. So much for loyalty to ones principles too.While I keep an eye on my punctuation, would it also help you out if I only use one syllable words?
We have been having this discussion for 100 years or more in America…it just continues…
Boundaries are a tough issue in every sense of the word.
God bless America and God bless our President. My prayers go out to both. And God bless all the people who want to live in America. We are honored. For those who can’t stay or get here at all, may your countries be changed and become a place you will enjoy living.
Just found some additional information:
So there you have it. You have to keep a job for 11 years. Your social security number disappears off the withholding rolls for more than some short period of time and it’s back to wherever you came from. Keep working for 11 years, learn english, and pay your money and you get a shot at citizenship. Go off the employment rolls or land in jail and it’s all over.
Honestly I don’t have a problem with that and I will tell you why. If we decided today to completely seal the border and deport every single illegal, we would still never find more than some small percentage of them because we couldn’t process more than some small percentage. They will end up staying here forever anyway so what difference does it make if they live their lives and die here with an illegal or a legal status? They are still here. Out of 10 or 11 million (or who the hell knows the actual number anyway since they are undocumented) you might get a million of them processed and sent back within 20 years. If you give them a way to legal up you get several benefits: A. you know how many people you are dealing with. B. the ones that end up in jail or unemployed can be sent back C. you keep the “good ones”; the law abiding people that show up to work every day. I have no problem with them being citizens.
It also discourages them from working “under the table” because they need that W2 or 1099 to prove they have a job, one of the conditions of staying.
Terrye, talking to me is like talking to a wall? At least I have a mind of my own, and don’t walk lockstep to the President when I know he is wrong. I am my own person and will always be. Unlike those of you sheeple who follow the wrong path because you think that is what is demanded of your loyality.
Do I know the cost of taking care of the poor, the elderly and the poverty stricken? If they are illegals in American, the answer is yes. 68 BILLION A YEAR TO THE TAX PAYER. And we are creating a whole new segment of our society that is poverty level. Sure, they will pay taxes. And they will pay into the Social Security Fund. So what? When it comes time for them to collect Social Security, they will drain the fund of more dollars than they have paid into it. So while you work 30 years to collect a check, they will be fully vested in only 10 years and eligible for reduced benefits in just five years.
You think most came here to work. Then explain to me why there has been such a sharp increase in the crime rate in the border states where there is a high illegal population. Please, I will be waiting for your answer on that. But since you never answer any other questions, I doubt that I will get one.
I don’t fix things? What the hell have you fixed?
I was a delegate to the Texas Republican convention and was on the Plank Committee (do you even know what that is?) in 2004 and I will be there again this year. And since I felt that the Tejano vote was important, I worked hard with the Tejano community and helped get G.W. elected. And I can tell you that the Hispanic community that are law abiding citizens do not want this amnesty.
http://www.dontspeakforme.org
No we don’t shoot people for driving without a license. And we don’t shoot illegals either. That was just more of your kneejerk reactionary rhetoric. And no one is suggesting that we brand them for life. I am suggesting that if they are sincere about wanting to be citizens, they can go back to their country of origin and come here the right way.
Get your head out of the sand, Terrye. You are beginning to sound like a George Bush parrot. And while I do agree that he has done some good things as President (Alito, TWOT, NG on the border, tax cuts) I am still an independent thinker. And I can tell you, we do not need Kool-Aid drinkers in the Republican party. There is too much at stake.
You really need to educate yourself about what it is you are arguing about. So far I have seen no evidence of that.
So here is your challange:
how much does it cost each family in your state for benefits for illegals?
how many illegals are in your schools? What is the legal-illegal student ratio?
what do you think of the U.S.-Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement?
what percentage of your prison population are illegals?
Let’s see if you have the cajones to answer my questions.