Apr 07 2012
Good For NBC
In what should be a normal occurrence when any news organization evidence of misinformation in a story (see RaThergAte), we are now living in a day and age when we find the rooting out of liars a rare and special event. With so much bias and filtered news out there (filtered to hide the full story, or all sides of the debate, or miss the fact pronouncements of ‘truth’ are standing on foundations of massive scientific uncertainty, etc – all lies of omission) it truly is a spectacle to behold when a fraud is canned in today’s news business:
NBC News has fired a producer who was involved in the production of a misleading segment about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida.
…
The segment in question was shown on the “Today” show on March 27. It included audio of Mr. Zimmerman saying, “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”
…
This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” Then the dispatcher asked, “O.K., and this guy — is he white, black or Hispanic?” Only then did Mr. Zimmerman say, “He looks black.”
If there is positive evidence for George Zimmerman in any this mess it is this segment of the 9-11 tapes. He does not appear (as of yet) to even know if Trayvon is black or not. The ‘looks’ caveat in his off-the-cuff response indicates uncertainty. Hit does not sound or appear to be laced with anger (yet – that does come later in the call when he starts to chase Trayvon down).
I applaud NBC for its quick and decisive action. One wonders, then, how buffoons like this keep getting paid millions of dollars to spout similar misinformation:
The news media has a long road back to ‘respectable’.
The Story Unravels: New Questions about Trayvon Martin’s Final Hour
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/the_story_unravels_new_questions_about_trayvon_martins_final_hour.html
[…] As I noted over the weekend, kudos to NBC for firing a producer who lied through omission. The person was fired for snipping out audio that totally changed the story line. A quote was transformed from a response to question on the race of somebody seen to the person apparently being obsessed with blacks. It was a propaganda trick that probably had Joseph Goebbels smiling from Hell. […]
a good timeline, complete with maps, that indicates that Trayvon went to his townhome (either going inside and coming back out, or just waiting in front of it) and then doubled back to go find Zimmerman. The only explanation for doubling back is that Trayon intended to initiate a confrontation.
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back
This is the kind of exhibit that would be used in court to establish a need for self defense by Zimmermann. Or to put it more simply, this is why he’ll never be convicted for anything connected to this, and probably never charged.
It’s a slamdunk for the defense.
WWS,
“indicates that Trayvon went to his townhome (either going inside and coming back out, or just waiting in front of it) and then doubled back to go find Zimmerman.”
That is the silliest fictional argument I have ever heard. You do know Trayvon was walking from the Club house home.
Which means it was ZIMMMERMAN who doubled back and went down between the buildings after his phone call to find Trayvon.
Zimmerman went from C (truck) to E, then back to F.
Geesh, making stuff up now …
I don’t think it is a slamdunk, WWS. It is just a theory. Trayvon could have also rounded the corner and hid behind one of those partial barriers to hide because he was afraid. That’s the problem…..no one knows.
Trayvon Martin case won’t go to grand jury; investigation continues
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/9/trayvon_martin_grand/
If I remember correctly, you only need a grand jury if the charge will be “murder”. The DA can charge a lesser crime on her own. My guess is that they are trying to find a lesser crime to charge him with so that the evidence can be heard.
from the time Martin entered the community til the confrontation started was a little over 6 minutes. the distance from the gate to the apartment was approx a 2 minute walk. I wonder why it took Martin 6 minutes, in the rain to cover that distance. Well actually he was only approx 2/3 of the distance from the gate to the apartment. Just a very slow walker, I’d guess.
Redteam, he could have also just hid once he got out of site and then came out again once he saw Zimmerman on foot. No one knows.
Via The Miami Herald:
In Florida, the decision on whether to indict someone in capital cases must be made by a grand jury. In all lesser cases the decision to file charges are routinely made by prosecutors. ]But in highly controversial or difficult cases, prosecutors often defer to a grand jury, leaving the politically charged decision to a panel of citizens
Corey’s office pointed out that the decision not to take the case to a grand jury should not be taken as an indication of which way she’s going to decide.
“The decision should not be considered a factor in the final determination of the case,” her office said in a release.
http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/04/no-grand-jury-in-trayvon-martin-case/
AJ, there is a serious timeline problem with this incident – I didn’t see it until I started looking seriously at it. There is some very good work out there – you are a man who appreciates hard evidence, look at the timeline and see what kind of story can be plausibly drawn from it.
Here’s the time problem: Trayvon’s destination, Brandy Green’s townhome, is maybe a minute or two away from the clubhouse, and yet the shooting took place several minutes after he left that area. What happened during that missing time? Frogg is right – maybe he just stayed behind some bushes, we don’t know where he went – but if he had just wanted to get away from Zimmermann, he easily had the time to do that. Since Zimmerman had lost track of him, and since Trayvon could have easily reached the townhome during that period, AND since Zimmermann was *behind* him at the time, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Trayvon doubled back and initiated a confrontation with Zimmerman.
here’s a good rundown of the timeline, confirmed by cell phone records and several witnessess, including calls to Trayvon’s girlfriend, DeeDee: (go to the site for independent corroboration of every timestamp claim this author makes)
from: http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/the-missing-230-and-deedees-testimony
“Media outlets have been reporting on a “missing minute” in the Trayvon Martin case, between when George Zimmerman’s original phone call to police ends and when 911 calls from Zimmerman and Martin fighting start coming in.
There’s actually considerably more than a minute missing during that time.
This is due to widespread confusion about when Zimmerman placed his original call to police. Many write-ups claim his call began at 7:11, which is incorrect.
At 7:11 p.m., Zimmerman, who was in his truck, spotted Trayvon. There had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood attributed to young black men, and Zimmerman was wary of someone he did not recognize walking along the path that goes through the back of the townhouses, his father later told a local TV station.
7:11:12 is the time that the ticket notes were first saved at the dispatching center, but Zimmerman’s call connected at 7:09:34, two minutes earlier.
With a review of notes saved further down, we can confirm a 7:09 contact time for Zimmerman’s call to police.
At 7:11:59, the dispatcher writes an update that the subject is running away. This event wasn’t reported by Zimmerman until more than two minutes into his call. The dispatcher could not have saved that update after only forty-seven seconds.
Using the proper connection time for Zimmerman’s call, we see that note being saved two and a half minutes in, exactly when we would expect it to be there.
As I’ve written about previously, Trayvon Martin had plenty of time to make it back to his temporary residence, Brandy Green’s townhouse, if he had wanted to.
Position [F], where Martin’s shooting occurred, is only 35 yards from where Zimmerman’s truck was parked [C], and only 70 yards from Brandy Green’s townhouse [D]. It would only take Trayvon around 30 seconds to jog that distance, less if he actually ran.
Until now, it has been somewhat of a mystery why Martin never made it back to Brandy Green’s townhouse when he was so close, and how he and Zimmerman ended up at position [F], so close to Zimmerman’s truck.
Had Martin jogged straight to Brandy Green’s when George Zimmerman first reported him running at 7:11:42, he would have been there by 7:12:12. Consideraly before Zimmerman could even finish giving police directions to the complex.
This has baffled the police investigating the case as well. They couldn’t figure out why Trayvon didn’t simply go to Brandy Green’s if he felt threatened, especially when he was so close. All reports had indicated he was heading that direction.
7:12:30
At a safe distance from Zimmerman, near the rear entrance of the complex, Trayvon receives a call from his girlfriend DeeDee.
Most cellular providers round down the seconds at the start of a call. We see a phone call from DeeDee that began at 7:12pm, but it could have began anytime between 7:12:00 – 7:12:59.
Rather than simply going inside Brandy Green’s townhouse, talking to DeeDee seems to have given Trayvon some motivation to double back and confront George Zimmerman.
We’ve seen several pictures now of Trayvon on social media that would lead us to believe he wanted to look tough. It may not be much of a stretch to think he wanted to look tough for his girlfriend as well.
7:13:30
Zimmerman is wrapping up his suspicious person call and walking back towards his truck from position [E].
Trayvon is heading toward Zimmerman’s truck as well, from somewhere around position [D]. He’s still talking to DeeDee on the phone, walking quickly.
7:13:41
Zimmerman hangs up his call to police.
This marks the beginning of the “missing” two minutes and thirty seconds between the end of Zimmerman’s call to police, and the first 911 call at 7:16:11.
While we don’t know all the details of what happened during this time, we do have some information that we can reconstruct the major events with.
The first bit that helps us is from a Reuters article published yesterday.
Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: “He told me Zimmerman’s story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?’ Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I’m not following you.’ He rolls his car windows up.
At first take, this sounds like Martin and Zimmerman had a prior confrontation before Zimmerman’s call to police, while Zimmerman was still in his truck. But it’s pretty clear by listening to that call, Zimmerman had not yet spoken to Trayvon.
That implies Zimmerman and Martin didn’t just have one confrontation over the upcoming minutes, they had two. The first one occurring at Zimmerman’s truck at position [C]. The second one at position [F].
7:14:30
Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.
“Why are you following me?”
“I’m not.”
Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings. He heads towards position [F], in the backyards between the complexes, cutting south of Townhouse G to get there.
Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight. He had already lost visual on him once. He leaves his vehicle once more and also heads towards [F], most likely via the sidewalk above [G].
Both Zimmerman’s and DeeDee’s statements seem to agree on that.
DeeDee’s account:
“Trayvon got nervous and he said he gonna run around from the back, so he ran from the back and said he had lost him,” said Dee Dee, but Martin said that, just a few seconds later, Zimmerman was behind him again.
Zimmerman’s account:
“Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building.
7:15:30
Zimmerman and Martin run into each other at position [F].
From Zimmerman’s perspective, Trayvon is waiting for him. From Trayvon’s perspective, Zimmerman had just told Trayvon that he wasn’t following him and now here he is, doing it a second time. Trayvon is likely getting fed up with it.
DeeDee’s account:
“When he saw the man behind him again he said this man is going to do something to him. And then he said this man is still behind him and I said run.”
Zimmerman’s account:
Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, ‘What’s your problem, homes?’ Zimmerman says ‘I don’t have a problem.’
7:15:40
Within ten seconds the fight has begun. DeeDee gets hung up on.
DeeDee’s account:
“Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn’t answer the phone.”
Zimmerman’s account:
Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman’s mouth and tells him to “Shut the fuck up,” and continues to pound on him.
7:16:11
The first 911 call comes in. There’s loud screaming in the background.
7:16:56
One shot is fired, after approximately a minute and fifteen seconds of fighting and screaming.
Six additional neighbors call 911.
Conclusions
The possibility that there was not just one, but two confrontations does help explain several things.
For one, why DeeDee’s testimony has seemed so confusing at times — she’s not relaying just one interaction Martin had with Zimmerman like most of us assumed, she’s bringing up two separate encounters she listened to, spaced only around a minute apart.
This description of events seems to be exactly what Zimmerman has been telling police since the beginning, since it’s essentially how the police described the incident to Tracy Martin the next day.
Trayvon still seems to have doubled back towards Zimmerman after he first started running at 7:11, but he went on to initially confront Zimmerman at his truck, rather than point [F].
None of this can tell us for sure how the fight began or who initiated physical contact.
Since it seems like Zimmerman’s main goal was to stay in touch the with police throughout the evening, it still seems unlikely that he would intentionally start any physical altercation knowing that they were on their way.
That being said, Zimmerman definitely missed an opportunity to identify himself at his truck, which potentially could have helped to de-escalate the situation.
I do appreciate timelines, I don’t appreciate filling them with speculation.
So let’s look at Trayvon objectively again (something everyone is unable to do). His parents are divorced or divorcing, his Mom has moved him from his long time HS. He is staying at his Dad’s girlfriend’s house. Having lots of friends whose parents were going through divorces while we were in HS I know what this is like.
Trayvon is on the phone to his girlfriend – the entire time! Get an idea what he is doing? He’s hanging out away from the house talking to his girlfriend. He is wandering around, but basically talking.
You can make crap up all day long, but his girlfriend and the phone log is clear. He is talking and walking and not wanting to go home!
And that is not worth being killed for. You assume he needed to get in doors quickly. What if he just wanted to stay outside and talk?
Trivial data correction — Trayvon’s parents were never married.
Second: Talking on the phone is not worth getting killed over. But, even if the reason he was out walking around was because of having a phone conversation with a girl, none of this was something Zimmerman was aware of. All he saw was a kid aimlessly wondering around — loitering, if your will, in the aftermath of a swath of robberies that had taken place.
Fear and suspicion is ratched up in any neigborhood, in the midst of bad things going on. Just look at the recent random shootings/killings in the black OK neighborhood. People were on edge there, moving outside items around in such a way they would never have their back to the street. So, you have to consider that the neigborhood Trayvon was walking around in was on a similar edge because of the recent crime wave happening, that hadn’t been solved.
o Maybe Martin headed for the townhouse and then doubled back.
o Maybe Martin was just hanging out (in the rain) to keep up the conversation with his girlfriend.
o Maybe he was afraid and hiding. And then the adrenaline got into him.
o Maybe he was trying to be a badass.
Botton line: We don’t know. How about we let the investigation run it course and see what FACTS come out.
I’m amazed at mankind’s penchant for mental mast*rb*t**n.
Sounds like a tremendous amount of reasonable doubt, I can understand the special prosecutor not wanting to be wrong and if her expectation is clearly that the jury will say not guilty, she won’t look very good. Walking around in the rain talking on a cell phone is not too smart, I’ve known of more than one cell phone dying from being caught in the rain.
AJ, I don’t think his mother took him out of school, I think the school suspended him for 10 days for something involving Mary J Wana. He was just visiting at his Dad’s girlfriends place.
I feel for the special prosecutor. She is in a very tight spot. I think she punts to the DOJ.
With Obama’s DOJ, Zimmerman could land in the Supreme Court.
Yes, Redteam, Trayvon was suspended for smoking the weed.
This Martin/Zimmerman incident has become a mess, pure and simple. It’s doubtful there will be any winners in the outcome. Zimmerman’s life is ruined. And, Martin is dead.
no one thinks that talking on the phone was worth being killed over, and it also it’s clear that this should never have happened. But then that’s true for almost all killings that come out of some confrontation – no one wanted it, but it happened.
The key to any future prosecution is who actually initiated the first *physical* contact. If Zimmermann cut ahead of Trayvon and initiated a confrontation, then it looks bad for him, but if Trayvon doubled back and jumped Zimmermann, then his claims of self defense, even with deadly force, should stand up. (And I think it’s been made clear by now that Trayvon was not some “little kid”, and physically was easily capable of beating Zimm, as he claims)
So that’s why mapping out just who was where and when is so vitally important to what happens next. Everything hangs on that.
(not to be flippant, but at this point it’s kind of like a Columbo story – just how do all these pieces of evidence fit together?)
I missed this Victor Davis Hanson commentary, dealing with “10 Things We Have Learned about the Trayvon Martin Tragedy.” Even though it was originally published March 29th, it’s relevance remains the same, as this incident continues to push it’s way through the justice system, as well as the public consciousness.
#3 on his list, hits a chord of truth with me:
Stunning isn’t it!
#4 also shows the double standand applied to the races, which, in a color blind society, should not be the case:
Why does one demographic have to be so careful in it’s jocular or casual conversations, while another is given a free pass?
Then you have the following Gainsville, FL incident that just happened. How will this be reported and construed by authorities, media and public?
RT: Huh? “Sounds like a tremendous amount of reasonable doubt, I can understand the special prosecutor not wanting to be wrong and if her expectation is clearly that the jury will say not guilty, she won’t look very good.”
A Grand Jury doesn’t proclain Guilty or Not Guilty. They decide whether or not to return an indictment. Ever heard the phrase, “You can get a Grand Jury to idict a ham sandwich if you’re any good as a prosecutor.”
There’s a simple reason for cancelling the Grand Jury hearing. You only need a grand jury (in Florida) to indict if you are going for capital murder, i.e. murder one with the death penalty. In all other cases the prosecutor can bring charges. Enough info has come out to remove premeditation from the “crime” – unless you are a member of Congress who believes Trayvon was “hunted down and killed like a dog”.
Likely we’ll eventaully see a charge of manslaughter, maybe even wreckless endangerment.. A good prosecutor might have a chance to get a conviction on these charges. Anything else and (I agree) there will be plenty of reasonable doubt.
Layman, you’re guilty, of not reading my sentence. the word ‘grand’ is not in it. I was referring to the jury that would decide guilt or not.
It really doesn’t matter if the charge ends up being manslaughter or criminal negligence or whatever, unless more evidence comes out that we haven’t heard of so far, the ham sandwich won’t be eaten. IMO most evidence favors Zimmerman and the only eye witness is in that category, so I see little chance of conviction, regardless of guilt or not.