May 29 2012

Zimmerman’s Snap Alibi Comes Back To Bite Him

Published by at 10:03 am under All General Discussions,Trayvon Martin Case

More news is out on the Trayvon Martin case, and it will be a test for all those ‘open minds’ who have decided Zimmerman is innocent in his killing of an unarmed 17 year old boy who was simply out walking and talking to his girlfriend. The news confirms my suspicions that Zimmerman was the aggressor (not someone defending himself) and is guilty of at least manslaughter (if not 2nd degree murder).

Zimmerman’s past includes well documented incidents of his hot temper and his desire to be  Enforcer of The Law (which sets him apart from those who look to law enforcement as a profession – versus the ego trip). Zimmerman has all the signs of wanting to be better than others and prove his superiority. His gun is not protection, but a crutch to his ego. I have seen his type too many times not to notice all the parallels. Age and experience do count at times.

Zimmerman is also an easy liar – as he did in court when he apologized to the Martin family and claimed he thought Trayvon was much older (hinting he thought Trayvon was in his mid 20’s). Of course Zimmerman forgot he told the 911 dispatcher he had made Martin to be in his late teens when he went stalking the kid – supposedly because he looked ‘suspicious’. That ability to spew a falsehood to save his skin is an indicator, something not to be dismissed or overlooked. If that is part of his core nature, a lot of good people have probably put their faith in someone who does not deserve it.

After the incident it was clear no one immediately knew of witnesses nearby and the ear-witness on the phone with Martin (listening up to seconds before his death). George Zimmerman was especially ignorant of these people who could easily challenge a quickly concocted alibi.

As I noted before, Zimmerman’s statements are inconsistent. He claims to get out of his truck to find street names or house numbers, but then finds himself behind buildings where there are neither. He acknowledges being told to stay away from Martin until police arrive, but then somehow gets to a point behind buildings where he is ‘jumped’. Except the ear-witness on the phone hears Zimmerman talking to Martin. Clearly he was not ‘jumped’ once a dialogue is engaged.

All this led me to predict the case would be built around the ear-witness and holes in Zimmerman’s statements to police which will prove him to be untruthful (at best). Now the prosecution has confirmed my prediction:

“Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses,” the prosecutors said in their court filing.

They said the statements by Zimmerman were admissible in court and “in conjunction with other statements and evidence help to establish defendant’s guilt in this case.”

Emphasis mine. Note how both testimony of witnesses AND physical evidence combine to prove Zimmerman lied in his statements to police about what happened. And why would Zimmerman lie? Because he knew he went beyond the bounds of lawful activity in stalking, confronting and killing Martin. He believed with all his twisted mind he had found a burglar in his community, and he was going to make sure this one did not ‘get away’. He was wrong.  Plain and simple. No racial issues, no gun rights issues. Just one person who was probably the wrong person to be armed and playing sheriff.

The evidence must be pretty damn good, or else the prosecutors would not want to keep out of the public square. The defense will not have a chance to try this part of the case in the news media. And in fact, the defense is already starting to cede ground:

In a separate court filing on Thursday, Zimmerman’s lawyer Mark O’Mara joined in the motion to keep his client’s statements out of the public eye for the time being.

There is the possibility that these statements may be subject to motions to suppress, if there is a potentially involuntary statement elicited from Mr. Zimmerman,” O’Mara said.

Clearly the defense has realized some of Zimmerman’s own words are going to convict him, so now they have to try and keep those words out of court. Not likely to happen, but not surprising when your case is in this kind of hole.

So all those open minds who have acquitted Zimmerman based on partial information are challenged to prove they can learn as more information becomes available.  Here is a challenge to show how justice must work, even when our first impressions are wrong. Actually, the hardest part is making the change when our first impressions are wrong. But that is the sign of wisdom and fairness.

158 responses so far

158 Responses to “Zimmerman’s Snap Alibi Comes Back To Bite Him”

  1. Mata says:

    I can’t speak for TM, RT. I can only say what I would do if I were in his shoes. If a strange man was overtly watching me, then following me thru a neighborhood where I was living (even temporarily), the last thing I’d do is lead him to where I resided. I don’t even do that on the roads if I think someone is following me.

    Nor did TM have any obligation to run to the house. He was already “retreating” to avoid any confrontation with GZ, but that “retreat” has no obligation for a specific destination. So I always find it odd that people put this more stringent onus on TM, judging his already obvious retreat attempts as inadequate.

    We don’t know TM’s path that night. I’ve always entertained the possibility, based on the time elapsed, that TM may have gone “the back way” (as the girl mentioned) by cutting east on the north leg of Retreat View Circle, then south on the loop, then back west on the cut thru. That is one explanation of how Zimmerman lost sight of him. But who knows for sure?

    The other option is that he walked right past Zimmerman in his car… who didn’t roll down his window from the safety of his car to query TM while he was on the phone. Yet, if media reports are to be believed, supposedly there was one such conversation that happened (perhaps prior to his call to the dispatcher?) Another thing we don’t know because we’ve not seen GZ’s multiple statements.

    If TM passed the SUV, and turned right down the tee in his retreat attempt, GZ got out of his car not long after he “passed”. So if that were me, I’d hide temporarily to make sure that person wasn’t still on my tail before I came out in plain site. This way the stranger wouldn’t see me go into a specific building. That’s even more important if I the only one home, or with another younger kid, without adults.

    We also don’t know if TM could get in the back door, or would have to enter the condo thru the front door off the eastern Retreat View Circle/carport entry. Lots of questions about his path, and GZ’s, that night. None of us know for sure.

    Obviously, were GZ were walking back and forth on that cut thru between Twin Trees Lane and where it intersects with the eastern leg of Retreat View Circle… or paused right near the tree to finish his phone call… I most definitely wouldn’t come out in to sight.

    But when GZ hung up, he didn’t return to his truck. The movement away from the truck while on the phone, and the time elapsed after he hung up and his presence at the death site may that very clear. So if I were waiting to see what that stranger was going to do, what I’d be seeing is that he was hunting for my whereabouts for at least another minute or two. If that were me, that time would seem like an eternity.

    What I think is that many easily put themselves into GZ’s shoes, but few bother to try on TM’s Nikes that night. I understand that GZ felt he was being diligent, if not over aggressive, in his watch duties (he’s not supposed to be armed, nor attempt to confront any suspicious person.. and the dispatcher specifically discouraged following). I also understand how that would look to TM, were I in his sneakers.

    However it’s my personal belief that the one that should have had the cool head, and been responsible for calmly defusing the situation with a simple identification of himself – just as a law enforcement officer would do if he were questioning someone – was the adult who was carrying the gun. With CCW permits, and gun ownership, comes serious responsibility.

    SYG doesn’t apply in any way here. That has been stated by many legal analysts, as well as by the FL Governor and the FL assembly man who sponsored the legislation. While O’Mara hasn’t made any public observations about SYG, GZ’s prior attorney, Craig Sonner, also said SYG wasn’t applicable and that it was a standard Castle Doctrine/’self defense case. There is no prohibition that Castle Doctrine isn’t the foundation for an immunity hearing.

    As you can see by the latest headlines, what I feared is exactly what is happening… the feds are sniffing around the state SYG laws now. That’s what happens when the law is improperly applied.

    Again it will come down to any perception that GZ did not aggravate the situation by his actions or, as the “criminal act” definition of 2nd degree murder notes, created the conditions that led to the death.

    INRE the June 29th hearing, there must be a motion filed for the immunity hearing and the date set on the docket for such to allow both State and defense to prepare. Considering that O’Mara doesn’t possess even half the State’s evidence at this time, and that GZ’s credibility is hanging by a thread, I can’t see that happening so quickly. Remember, the immunity hearing places the burden of proof on the defendant alone.

    In fact, O’Mara may not even file a motion at all. There is no requirement that a defendant request an immunity hearing. Considering the national focus on this case, I would think that any judge would, instead, deny the immunity based on the situation (GZs actions prior to the death), and let it go to a jury instead… as happens in the majority of these hearings. With the burden of proof being on Zimmerman and his word as gospel, it’s a serious roll of the dice for O’Mara.

    But ya never know…

  2. Redteam says:

    mata, it seems strange to me, and I’m just curious as to why so much faith is based on what was revealed by DD regarding the phone conversation, but then there is total disbelief in parts of it. For example it is quite clear to me that you don’t believe the part about TM being ‘right outside’ his father’s place. You believe at that time he is back up there by GZ vehicle hiding in the bushes (or something)
    What is there about that particular part of her statement that you just don’t believe?
    Now, let’s put myself into TM’s shoes and ‘assume’ total innocence on my part. So, I’m walking back to the apartment complex and it starts raining, so I look for some shelter and I see it at the community building near the gate, so I take shelter there. After a few minutes of standing there innocently looking around I decide it’s not gonna quit raining, so I’m just gonna go ahead and walk home. Just after I leave the building, I see an Suv parked on the street, but don’t think anything about it, I mean almost everyone in the complex has a vehicle and most of them are parked there on the street, but as I get near the vehicle, I notice a person sitting in it. I assume he’s sitting there waiting for the rain to slow a little to exit his car. As I walk by, I look a little closer and see a guy in it talking on a cell phone. All perfectly normal. Then it starts to rain a little harder and I don’t wanna get any wetter, so I decide to jog on home to get out of the rain. From the point where I am, it’s about a 30 second jog to the back door. I arrive at the door and don’t have a key, so I knock and ‘little brother’ comes to door and let’s me in. We watch tv together for a little while and go to bed. That’s the way it would have likely been if all the scenarios as TM’s supporters have presented were true.

    Let’s change it just a little. At the beginning, TM is smoking pot as he approaches the community building and it has just started to rain so he takes shelter to finish smoking his dope. Then when he starts to leave, he sees a guy in an SUV talking on a cell phone and assumes he has just reported him to the police for loitering and smoking pot. After checking him out, he decides he’d better get somewhere and get all the incriminating evidence hidden before the police get there and when he sees GZ leave his vehicle, he assumes he has been made and the confrontation occurs.
    So, putting yourself into TM’s shoes, which do you think is more likely and if it was the first, why didn’t TM just go home and go to bed?
    I interpret you to be saying here:
    “So if that were me, I’d hide temporarily to make sure that person wasn’t still on my tail before I came out in plain site. ”
    that you would just get out of sight and hide, but that’s not what he did at all. He started running while still within sight of GZ.
    If he were totally innocent, didn’t have any dope in his posession, etc, why would he have been afraid of someone seeing him. After all, wasn’t him being where he was, perfectly normal? why run and hide. The man was just sitting in his car, in the rain talking on a cell phone. Why would that be threatening to anyone unless they had something to feel guilty about or that needed to be hidden?

    I don’t believe the 2nd degree murder charge will ever be tried in court. They don’t have a case. anything they present will have to be circumstantial and all the circumstances are in GZ’s favor. If it weren’t for racism and politics, we wouldn’t even be discussing the case because there would never have been a charge.

  3. Mata says:

    sigh… RT, the levels in Martin’s system do not indicate any pot smoking in the recent hours prior to the death. Even excluding the possible spike in levels that happen post mortem, they are well below a recent inhalation.

    Pot smoking ain’t got squat to do with this. I can’t say this enough… zip, nada, zero. And after this careful and extensive crime scene investigation you mentioned, doesn’t the fact no such stash has been found stand out as being somewhat inconvenient? And that GZ could tell he was smoking a joint (not a cigarette), but couldn’t tell he was so young… ahem… at that distance? … mercy, RT. LOL

    This is much better, sticking to what thin facts we already *think* we know. Martin was not intoxicated on anything. Nor would his intoxication levels have mattered because what the State is putting GZs behavior and decisions that night on trial.

    What has Dee’s statements got to do with my version of being in TM’s sneakers? It has to do with being aware of a stranger, giving me the eye and following me around. This is documented by GZ himself on the dispatcher call, saying TM stopped and stared at him, started “coming to check me out”, then ran to get way from him. You forgot that in your version #1

    The problem with your account is you have it in your mind you know TM’s path, which only Martin really knows (and he can’t talk…). Zimmerman likely does to some extent. I’ve thought about it both ways… being as so many are certain that TM passed right by GZ in his car while talking on the phone, and waited to jump him. That was my first scenario to you. That’s actually not my likely path, and frankly that path is more detrimental to GZ than what I think happened.

    I tend to favor the alternative because it makes more sense with supposed GZ accounts we’ve heard from media. If TM took the north leg of Retreat View Circle and came back in at the east end of the cut thru, it would eat up more of those elapsed minutes. Remember that the “he’s running” observation was 2’08” into the 4’12” call. And then there’s about two more minutes after that before the argument/meeting..

    So from the time Martin starts running via GZ, to the two meeting, it’s four minutes. Two of those, GZ is still on the phone with the dispatcher.

    Martin stops a run or fast walk when he doesn’t see GZ behind him. His path is to round the block and enter the cut thru from the east.

    Meanwhile, GZ, after seeing TM take off out of sight on the northern loop road, heads east on the cut thru while he’s still on the phone with the dispatcher. He knows he could head Martin off at the pass if he’s rounding the block.

    GZ moves 24 seconds away from the car (after getting out, of course) and finishes his call. At a fast walk pace of 5′ per second (or 300′ per minute), he could be 120′ away from his SUV or so. The site of death is 165′ approx from his SUV. Beyond the tee, 100′ further, is the intersection with the eastern loop road.

    In the two minutes approx after hanging up, and before the meeting with TM, a continued path to the end of the cut thru is another 145′, and a return distance to his car is the 265’… a total of 410′ if he’s staying on that path. Depending upon his speed, and pauses, he could have been back at the SUV easily had he walked straight to the end, turned around and walked back at the same pace in about a 1’20”.

    But GZ never went back to his car. So in that two minutes, if he stayed on the cut thru path, he traveled 145′ east, and another 100′ back west to the site of the death/fight – a total of 245′ in two minutes.

    Of course GZ has slowed his pace, and likely looking and stopping. The only explanation if he’s still on that path, and logical if he’s looking for Martin. He’s gotten to the end, but Martin hasn’t rounded the corner yet. So GZ turned to walk west, back towards his car. . But at some point… perhaps at the tee… GZ becomes aware that Martin is on that same path, turns and words are exchanged.

    From that moment on, it’s anyone’s guess because Martin’s dead and can’t talk, and Zimmerman has his own version.

    While that more accurately fits with what the media say is GZ’s story – i.e. GZ is “on his way back to his car when he’s jumped” bit – it doesn’t much help with the State’s case that he continued to follow, pursue, hunt Martin. The elapsed time shows it’s obvious that GZ did not immediately return to his vehicle. By GZ refusing the dispatcher’s suggestion that he meet the PD at the mailboxes, it’s also overt that GZ planned to hunt/peck around for TM.

    Think about this for a moment….

    Obviously, if GZ planned on returning to the SUV after hanging up, he could have done so easily in that two minutes. In fact, he could have made it to the other end of the cut thru, and still gotten back to his SUV with a casual, steading walking pace of 3′ per second if he didn’t stop, look, hunt.

    So while we don’t know where GZ went in that time, what we do know is where he *didn’t* go… and I believe that elongated time is exactly what the State will be focusing on when they attempt to prove that Zimmerman was not backing down on hunting TM.

    Maybe we’ll learn more with a trial, but there will be a trial… with the only other alternatives being an immunity hearing is requested and granted, or GZ strikes a plea bargain.

  4. Mata says:

    More breaking news with the release of Judge Lester’s revocation of the bond order (H/T to a bud for the fast note…)

    GZ has made himself no friend to the Judge, and he’s giving GZ a serious dressing down in the last page of the order.

    Quoting a precedent as to the factors considered when granting bail bond, among which are character and strength of evidence and probability of guilt, and the accused’s respect for the law and their character, Judge Lester wrote this scathing last paragraph:

    Among these factors, the only ones that heavily weigh in his [GZs] favor are that he turned himself in upon the issuance of the original warrant and has kept authorities abreast of his current location. There are several facators that weigh against his release: this is a serious charge for which life may be imposed; the evidence against him is strong; he has been chraged with one prior crime, for which he went through a pre-trial diversion program, and has had an injunction lodged against him. Most important, thought, i sthe fact that he has now demonstrated that he does not properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial process. Based upon these factors, this Court finds that the revocation of hte bond is appropriate.

    ORDERED and ADJUDGED:

    The Defendant’s bond is hereby revoked. He shall be held in the John F. Polk Correctional Facility on a no bond status until further order of the court.

    Lester also made references to the lack of disclosure about the 2nd and more recent passport, and included this in his consideration.

    RT… let’s just say that this is no time to be filing for an immunity hearing that revolves around the defendant’s credibility for burden of proof. What he’d best hope for is that the judge will consider giving him *any* bond in the foreseeable future.

    Oh yes, just for you, gcotharn. Since I know your feelings towards hip hop and the culture, I just thought you’d like to know that GZ’s propensity for the same. This article about his PhotoBucket account and more recent (and not unavailable) MySpace “datniggtb” account, reveals the few photos he had in his PhotoBucket account.

    The same commercial online service additionally identified an account on the Photobucket image-sharing service that was similarly set up with George Zimmerman’s email address. The account contained only eight photos, including images of a monkey pointing a pistol; Tupac Shakur’s chest with a large “Thug Life” tattoo; a 2003 album cover from the hip-hop group “Thug Love”; and the late soul singer James Brown’s arrest booking photo, with a caption that read “It’s Friday, BITCH!!”

    umm… not much of a Ricky Martin fan there, eh? My guess is that this may temper your judgement of the victim, since it’s quite likely that TM and GZ may have had similar musical tastes.

    As far as their online persona goes, you may wish to read Zimmerman’s 2005 Joe G MySpace account, which preceded the one we can’t see now. You find his “about me” blurbs in the right frame quite interesting, I’m sure.

    Perhaps, after getting thru the reading the real GZ, in his own words (and older than teen Trayvon when he did so), you might abandon the character comparison and return to facts and procedures of the 2nd degree murder process.

  5. Mata says:

    oops… got caught in moderation. Try #2. My guess is that GZ’snickname on his most recent, and unavailable MySpace account tripped the filter, plus title on one of his PhotoBucket pix. So let’s see if I can get thru thru the moderation filter with some adjustments on those words:

    __________________

    More breaking news with the release of Judge Lester’s revocation of the bond order (H/T to a bud for the fast note…)

    GZ has made no friend in Judge Lester, who’s giving GZ a serious dressing down in the last page of the order.

    Quoting a precedent as to the factors considered when granting bail bond, among which are character and strength of evidence and probability of guilt, and the accused’s respect for the law and their character, Judge Lester wrote this scathing last paragraph:

    Among these factors, the only ones that heavily weigh in his [GZs] favor are that he turned himself in upon the issuance of the original warrant and has kept authorities abreast of his current location. There are several facators that weigh against his release: this is a serious charge for which life may be imposed; the evidence against him is strong; he has been chraged with one prior crime, for which he went through a pre-trial diversion program, and has had an injunction lodged against him. Most important, thought, i sthe fact that he has now demonstrated that he does not properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial process. Based upon these factors, this Court finds that the revocation of the bond is appropriate.

    ORDERED and ADJUDGED:
    The Defendant’s bond is hereby revoked. He shall be held in the John F. Polk Correctional Facility on a no bond status until further order of the court.

    Lester also made references to the lack of disclosure about the 2nd and more recent passport, and included this in his consideration.
    RT… let’s just say that this is no time to be filing for an immunity hearing that revolves around the defendant’s credibility for burden of proof. What he’d best hope for is that the judge will consider giving him *any* bond in the foreseeable future.

    Oh yes, just for you, gcotharn. Since I know your feelings towards hip hop and the culture, I just thought you’d like to know that GZ’s propensity for the same. This article about his PhotoBucket account (took out his nickname) and more recent (and no longer unavailable) MySpace account, reveals the few photos he had in his PhotoBucket account.

    The same commercial online service additionally identified an account on the Photobucket image-sharing service that was similarly set up with George Zimmerman’s email address. The account contained only eight photos, including images of a monkey pointing a pistol; Tupac Shakur’s chest with a large “Thug Life” tattoo; a 2003 album cover from the hip-hop group “Thug Love”; and the late soul singer James Brown’s arrest booking photo, with a caption that read “It’s Friday, [redacted for filler... insert B word here]!”

    umm… not much of a Ricky Martin fan there, eh? My guess is that this may temper your judgement of the victim, since it’s quite likely that TM and GZ may have had similar musical tastes.

    As far as their online persona goes, you may wish to read Zimmerman’s 2005 Joe G MySpace account, which preceded the one we can’t see now. You find his “about me” blurbs in the right frame quite interesting, I’m sure.

    Perhaps, after getting thru the reading the real GZ, in his own words (and older than teen Trayvon when he did so), you might abandon the character comparison based on music and lifestyle choices, and return to facts and procedures of the 2nd degree murder process.

  6. Mata says:

    dang… two attempts to stay out of the moderation filter. That ain’t happening. I’ll try piece meal. And if this works, AJ you can just dump the two in moderation… if you’re reading this.

    More breaking news with the release of Judge Lester’s revocation of the bond order (H/T to a bud for the fast note…)
    GZ has made no friend in Judge Lester, who’s giving GZ a serious dressing down in the last page of the order.
    Quoting a precedent as to the factors considered when granting bail bond, among which are character and strength of evidence and probability of guilt, and the accused’s respect for the law and their character, Judge Lester wrote this scathing last paragraph:

    Among these factors, the only ones that heavily weigh in his [GZs] favor are that he turned himself in upon the issuance of the original warrant and has kept authorities abreast of his current location. There are several factors that weigh against his release: this is a serious charge for which life may be imposed; the evidence against him is strong; he has been charged with one prior crime, for which he went through a pre-trial diversion program, and has had an injunction lodged against him. Most important, thought, is the fact that he has now demonstrated that he does not properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial process. Based upon these factors, this Court finds that the revocation of the bond is appropriate.

    ORDERED and ADJUDGED:

    The Defendant’s bond is hereby revoked. He shall be held in the John F. Polk Correctional Facility on a no bond status until further order of the court.

    Lester also made references to the lack of disclosure about the 2nd and more recent passport, and included this in his consideration.

    RT… let’s just say that this is no time to be filing for an immunity hearing that revolves around the defendant’s credibility for burden of proof. What GZ better hope for is that the judge will consider giving him *any* bond in the foreseeable future.

  7. Mata says:

    Part two of what’s in moderation. This one is for you, gcotharn.

    Since I know your feelings towards hip hop and the culture, I just thought you’d like to know that GZ’s propensity for the same. This article about his PhotoBucket account and more recent (and not unavailable) MySpace account, reveals the few photos he had in his PhotoBucket account. I’d like to give you the link, but since it contains Zimmerman’s nickname in the headline, I think the filter, again, kicks it out. So I’ll do the excerpts instead.

    The same commercial online service additionally identified an account on the Photobucket image-sharing service that was similarly set up with George Zimmerman’s email address. The account contained only eight photos, including images of a monkey pointing a pistol; Tupac Shakur’s chest with a large “Thug Life” tattoo; a 2003 album cover from the hip-hop group “Thug Love”; and the late soul singer James Brown’s arrest booking photo, with a caption that read “It’s Friday, [insert B word here to avoid filter moderation]!”

    umm… not much of a Ricky Martin fan there, eh? My guess is that this may temper your judgement of the victim, since it’s quite likely that TM and GZ may have had similar musical tastes.

    As far as comparing their online persona goes, you may wish to read Zimmerman’s 2005 Joe G MySpace account, which preceded the one we can’t see now. You find his “about me” blurbs in the right frame quite educational I’m sure. Specifically references to his buds that do time and keep their mouths shut about him, what he calls his ex, and how he feels about Mexicans.

    Perhaps, after getting thru the reading the real GZ, in his own words (and older than teen Trayvon when he did so), you might abandon the character comparison and return to facts and procedures of the 2nd degree murder process.

  8. Mata says:

    Dang it all… can’t get part two thru the filters either. This is for gcotharn.

    An article about GZ’s most recent active MySpace page, and his Photobuck account with eight photos… . Tupac Shakur’s chest tattoo, a 2003 album cover of a hip hop group (who’s name may also trigger the filter), James Brow’s mug shot with a caption that has another word that triggers the filter. Can’t even link to the article about that MySpace account because Zimmerman’s nickname, which likely triggers the filter because it bears resemblence to Martin’s, is in the headlines. Sorry guy.

    Needless to say, it doesn’t appear that GZ is a Ricky Martin fan, and my guess is TM and GZ had similar musical tastes.

    Then there’s read Zimmerman’s 2005 Joe G MySpace account, which preceded the one we can’t see now. You find his “about me” blurbs in the right frame quite interesting, I’m sure.

    Perhaps, after getting thru the reading the real GZ, in his own words, you might abandon the character comparison and return to facts and procedures of the 2nd degree murder process.

  9. browngreengold says:

    Dang Mata…. you mean it appears that GZ is a fan of hip hop?

    Hmmmm… imagine that.

    Wasn’t there someone here who had some negative things to say about hip hop culture?

  10. gcotharn says:

    Mata,

    I might comment re GZ’s My Space on another day, after I have time to digest it all.

    Re your guessed scenario of GZ wandering through part of the complex, hunting and pecking as he tries to again catch sight of TM:
    your guessed GZ scenario matches my guessed GZ scenario.

    But we draw different conclusions:
    I say GZ’s attempt to again to catch sight of TM amounted to nothing wrongful or illegal. You say GZ’s actions will get him convicted of Murder 2. Go figure.

    Are you arguing that GZ was hunting Trayvon with the intent of shooting Trayvon? or of holding Trayvon hostage for the police?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Re GZ being a fan of hip hop

    On one level, it is meaningless, insofar as I never claimed GZ did not possess the personality to fight and to shoot, and I never claimed GZ did not possess the ability to shoot.

    Conversely, many Trayvon defenders sneered at GZ’s story that Trayvon was quick to fight, was effective in a fight, and assaulted GZ with a deadly weapon. Then there is the prosecution’s contention that part of the reason a jury should convict GZ is that GZ is a liar. Against these backdrops, it is important to note that Trayvon’s fandom of violent hip hop is an indication that GZ’s story is plausible, i.e, that GZ’s story does not require some wildly out of character action on Trayvon’s part, and does not require some miraculous physical feats on Trayvon’s part.

    On a second level, GZ’s being a fan of hip hop must be folded into the jury’s overall assessment of GZ’s personality. I’m fine with that.

    This is who I am in this entire thing:
    LET THE TRUTH GET OUT!

    I am not concerned about political strategy which might save SYG. LET THE TRUTH GET OUT! If SYG is worthwhile (and I suspect it is), then it will withstand scrutiny. If SYG cannot withstand scrutiny, then change it or get rid of it.

    Also, I am not interested in supporting a false media depiction of an angelic Trayvon — ESPECIALLY if the false depiction might impact an innocent man (GZ) being convicted. LET THE TRUTH GET OUT! Whatever it is.

    I am not interested in protecting GZ from truth. LET THE TRUTH GET OUT! about GZ’s history, about whatever. Let the chips fall where they may.

    One thing which definitely bugs me, about you guys, is that you consistently mischaracterize my points view. You violate the Golden Rule. And you mess up the conversation, b/c you make the conversation be about something which I never said and do not believe.

  11. Redteam says:

    mata, wow, a lot to read and ponder there. can’t comprehend all that at once, but one thing sticks out. Why are you pointing out how GZ character is gonna be against him, but TM’s character will not be a factor? I would say that if one is, both is or vice versa.

    “By GZ refusing the dispatcher’s suggestion that he meet the PD at the mailboxes” wasn’t GZ actually headed back toward his vehicle when Martin confronted him? the evidence seems to indicate that.
    I didn’t see where you said why you think Martin went to the back door of his apartment but didn’t go in and ended up back 70-110 yards away. (just going by DD and TM’s conversation). I’m going to digest what you wrote a little more.

  12. Mata says:

    gcotharn: Are you arguing that GZ was hunting Trayvon with the intent of shooting Trayvon? or of holding Trayvon hostage for the police?

    If he were hunting with intent to kill, they would have filed murder in the first. He has no right to detain TM since Zimmerman is not only not a LEO, Martin wasn’t doing anything illegal.

    If you believe that any attempt at detaining Martin was GZ’s quest, then I might suggest that Zimmerman would have ended up in a fight and killing Martin in all possible scenarios…. i.e attempting to hold him without any probable cause, or following Martin to his house, had TM led him there.

    And please stop calling a sidewalk a “deadly weapon”. This such a naive grasp of legal terminology that it makes me wince for those that attempt such embarrassing arguments. There are a vast number of legal dictionaries available via the Internet. Please avail yourself of them and when you do, I’m quite sure that you will find that a concrete sidewalk does not fit the description.

  13. Mata says:

    Oh wow… the moderation posts showed up! The other one never did.

    Thanks, AJ.

  14. AJStrata says:

    Sorry Mata,

    In a different time zone at the moment and really busy.

  15. Mata says:

    No prob, AJ

    :RT: Why are you pointing out how GZ character is gonna be against him, but TM’s character will not be a factor?

    Because it is Zimmerman who is on trial for 2nd degree murder which revolved around his choices and decisions that led to … per the police reports since day one… an “unnecessary death”. Martin’s character has nothing to do with Zimmerman’s “criminal act” or “depraved mind” (both definitions of which I’ve already provided here multiple times)

    wasn’t GZ actually headed back toward his vehicle when Martin confronted him? the evidence seems to indicate that

    Eventually GZ would have to return to his vehicle, wouldn’t he? The point would be that Zimmerman seems to be suggesting that when the dispatcher suggested he stand down, he did so immediately. The timeline shows that is not the case. The fact he refused the suggestion to meet the PD at the mailboxes, and said he’d call from where ever he was indicates that he had no intentions of standing down from his search.

    I didn’t see where you said why you think Martin went to the back door of his apartment but didn’t go in and ended up back 70-110 yards away.

    And here I thought you didn’t want to consider anything that Dee says as valid… :0) Like I said, we don’t know Martin’s path. I also don’t know that Dee’s statement meant he was actually “at” Greene’s condo unit either. Does that mean he’s in the near vicinity, compared to the 7-11, when she started talking to him in her call prior to the last? If that’s what she meant, why would she tell him to run home?

    Dee’s not the most eloquent of orators so the basic of her statement is that she can attest to Martin’s general state of mind, whether he was aware of Zimmerman’s movements and focus, and another validation that Martin did not jump Zimmerman, unannounced from behind. Lastly, both her and Martin’s detailed call logs will provide a more precise timeline of when the confrontation happened, and how long it lasted.

    gcotharn… pillow fight? LOL

  16. Mata says:

    Correction on your comment about “why you think Martin went to the back door of his apartment but didn’t go in and ended up back 70-110 yards away.” I never said he was at his back door. I believe that some are suggesting that Dee indicated he was home. I don’t think he ever got close to either his back door, or his front door.