Jun 26 2012
The Nail In George Zimmerman False Claims
This post extends analysis I did in a previous post.
There has been a lot of excellent analysis in the blogosphere regarding George Zimmerman’s claims about the events surrounding his killing of young Trayvon Martin. Analysis clearly in line with the results of the police investigation and the prosecution’s case. While there are many discrepancies throughout Zimmerman’s tall tale, some are simply too big to ignore.
(1) There is no way GZ could pull his gun as described. On his back with his holster against his hip, his holster inside his waistband, while being pinned by TM who is supposedly straddling him. This position means TM”s legs are blocking access to GZ’s waist area (especially if he wiggles ‘downward’ through the straddling legs), as well as the ground and clothing making it impossible to reach and pull a gun. In this position you cannot pull a gun on a wet and rainy night without some evidence on the gun. But the fact is GZ’s elbow is too long to reach his waist since he claimed to be pinning TM’s arm while attempting this trick. Impossible (see below for why)
Update: For all the doubting Thomas’ out there, you can disprove this yourself. Try and get your wallet of your pants laying on your back without raising you butt off the ground (this is within inches of where a holster would be inside a waste band). Then have someone straddle you and try again – note where their legs are. And finally, pin something under your right arm, have someone straddle you (with their weight on you) and try again. While the picture above is static, your own experiment will do the trick. In the last case your elbow must bend to get to your back pocket, thus the laws of physics and biology disprove the reenactment by GZ. – end update.
(2) There is almost no GZ blood or DNA on TM. TM should be covered with blood or DNA from the punching and from the claimed suffocation attempt. But there is none.
(3) There is no TM blood or DNA on GZ, which there would be if he was shot while straddling over GZ. Blood would begin to flow and should be all over GZ.
(4) If TM was really banging GZ’s head on concrete, there should be some fractures in the skull. Apparently there are no injuries consistent with multiple hard blows to the head.
(5) Finally, the path of the bullet in TM’s body is not possible from the position described , and really is only possible if both men are standing AND GZ’s arm is extended straight.
When you look at the bullet path inside TM’s body it is pretty clear that this was not a shot from underneath, which would be the angle if events transpired as Zimmerman claims. In fact, even standing the only way to get a gun that level is with your elbows locked straight out in a typical gun range position.
This post does a great job of highlighting some of these basic issues (and where I was able to collect the bullet path image)
You can’t break the laws of physics/biology/chemistry – this is not a fictional world. The crime scene evidence completely destroys GZ’s story, even before you get to issues like the timeline described vs the timeline recorded on the dispatch call, the lies about why GZ exited the car (to follow TM, not to read house numbers which were right in front of him). Basically, nothing beyond the fact he shot Trayvon appears to be true.
And why would GZ need to lie so much?
Because the truth is his actions led to the death of young Trayvon Martin. That is the only reason to make up so much fiction.
Looking forward to your analysis of lie detectors…
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-lie-detector-video-20120621_1_questions-gated-community-ervin
Here’s another article dealing with the results of GZ’s lie detector test.
But, jan and jwb, ya’ll gotta understand GZ worked long and hard concocting and crafting these lies to the point he could easily pass a lie detector test. right?
seriously, the lie detector tests clearly prove who was and who was not the person that was the criminal in this confrontation, and in my opinion, the criminal is the dead person.
This entire posts deals with several items that are of absolutely no value in determining the guilt or innocence of GZ.
I haven’t ‘reenacted’ this to see if it is possible for someone to draw a gun out of a holster when they are terrified (at which point superhuman strength occurs) and any and all feats of strength are likely and/or possible. But in any case, it was not a ‘static’ episode and I’m sure that in desperation and fearing for your life, a lot of things are ‘possible’ that might ordinarily not be possible.
I once had a friend working under a car and the jack slipped and the car fell on him. I grabbed a hold of the bumper and lifted it enough that he was able to escape. afterward, I attempted to lift the auto the same way (without the adrenalin) and I couldn’t even budge it, not even a fraction. So I can imagine, first that GZ might not clearly remember all the details, and that, in desperation, anything could have been possible.
one of my points is, any re-enactments can’t represent reality because the ‘fear of death’ wouldn’t be there.
Bullet trajectory is a complete non issue. Why discuss it?
I have always counted, as a factor which points towards GZ being innocent, that GZ gave such complete and constant cooperation to the police. GZ’s father is a judge. It seems likely that a guilty GZ would have lawyered up.
I still think GZ was wrong to speak to the police. He ought have shut up and lawyered up. Still, GZ’s constant willingness, to do whatever police asked, is itself a factoid which points towards his innocence.
When I saw that he had taken a lie detector test, I had another moment of “not the action of a guilty man”. None of it is dispositive, yet these factoids do point in the direction of innocence.
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re A.J.’s earlier theory that GZ had originally stalked Trayvon down the path and towards Brandy Green’s condo:
the misstep is not so much that A.J. is now changing theories. As new evidence comes out, most of us are willing to change our theories. No big deal.
Rather, imo, A.J.’s misstep was in scorning those of us who disagreed with his theory. We just disagreed. So what? Disagreement is nothing. Disagreement is what comment sections are about. It was the scorn, and the namecalling, which was uncalled for.
gcotharn:
“Rather, imo, A.J.’s misstep was in scorning those of us who disagreed with his theory.”
well, in reality, since he’s now changing theories, even he disagreed with his original theory.
Well, he did say something about changing his mind in a second, or something similar.
everyone should and does have the option of changing their mind. I haven’t done so, but could if anything new comes along. So far, nothing, well except that GZ took a lie detector test that indicates no deception.
It’s always been more about the politics of race baiting than GZ’ claim of self defense. Similar shootings have occurred before and since the GZ/TM event was brought into national focus by the professional baiters (Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, etc.) without national media attention. Self defense shootings within a wide range of parameters occur daily…and where is the national media on these cases?
All a set up for the coming RNC.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/06/new-black-panther-threatens-whitey-kill-these-racist-honkies-these-crackers-these-pigs-these-pink-people/
RT,
You are a lying putz. I never once said I was not open to new information nor that I would not refine my assessment upon such information coming out.
From day one I said GZ was a loose canon with a gun and his story would fall apart.
HOW it fell apart would be interesting but I never committed to how.
I did not change my mind, and unlike you I have stayed with the bounds of reality (as opposed to your pathetic character assassination of a dead boy, his girl friend, law enforcement, the judge). Safe to say you lose arguments ugly.
You can say what you want about current events here. But if you ever insult my honor and integrity again you will be tossed.
Permanently.
Got it?
Horse puckey. Zimmerman didn’t take a “lie detector” test. He asked for, as verified by the tester himself on the CVSA tape (which obviously a few never bothered to watch), the voice stress test.
Rather than repeat myself, I’ve already pointed out the controversy over any such accuracy of these tests, and whether it ends up being admissible in court via another thread.
And if some would be more curious to watch the entire hour plus CVSA interview… including the chit chat before, another GZ fable/fabricated lies about the event… then watch how the test is done, they’d be less likely to place so much faith in the results.
One need only look at the Q&A, plus set up for the test prior to taking the test, and watch how Zimmerman’s first answers the question, “did you confront the guy you killed”. World of difference when he was caught off guard… unlike when you actually do the test and already know what’s coming your way… TWICE.
Oddly enough, gcotharn, that seems to be what the evidence is saying. GZ’s got two choices in desperately clinging to his claim that TM assaulted him while he was at the tee on the east-west path, and he fell to the ground:
1: Either he got up after supposedly being decked, and went after Martin further south on the path … which would indicate that Martin would have knocked him off his feet (according to GZ) and tried to retreat, or
2: He wasn’t decked at the tee where he says, and already had traveled further south on the path.
Where’s the “change” in AJ’s assumptions?
AJ: Did you read this? I said it just above.
“Well, he did say something about changing his mind in a second, or something similar.”
That was me pointing out that you did say you would have no problem changing your mind if new evidence came out.
So, just where did you read that I said you wouldn’t change your mind?
And as several of my comments lately have indicated, you have changed your theory.
So I don’t understand where you think I said you were not amenable to changing your mind if new evidence came out. In fact, my statement was that you said you would/could change your mind if that were the case.
mata: you’re rehashing again. Nobody says or claims that lie detector tests will or may be admitted in court. Everyone knows that it is extremely rare and only in a very few states where it is ever allowed at all if ever. Everyone knows that basically voice stress tests are a ‘good indicator’ but certainly not infallible.
Apparently, not “everyone” does know….
So, now the story comes out that a lot of the released evidence against GZ was put together by Serino (Doctor?) and Gutman of ABC misinformation News agency. Indications are that they worked together to leak the information. bad enough for both of them to lose their jobs over. This is going to be a very Big Deal before this story is over.
mata: seriously, you need to quit peddling and get off that traffic circle, at least until you stop legally eating that Big Mac.
“Apparently, not “everyone” does know….”
Just because the tests are not usually allowed in courts has no bearing on the fact that they are extremely accurate ‘in most cases’. Since GZ took his tests and were asked the same questions that he had already answered to (before the test) and he answered them the same way is proof enough for the police dept to quit pursuing him. They didn’t resume the pursuit until, and only because, the race baiters entered the picture.
If anyone had asked you two days ago about the accuracy of lie detector tests, I’d guess you’d answered pretty much as I did.
I would also bet you that in about 98% or more criminal cases, lie detector tests are used (but not admitted in court) because they are so accurate in producing results that are useful.
So how do you think GZ was able to beat them? You think he spent several days rehearsing?
98%, huh? You’re funny. You just make it up as you go along. Love the made up “if anyone asked you two days ago…” scenario. “Extremely accurate in most cases”? Hahhaha..even a casual internet search will reveal that the accuracy of CVSAs is, to put it mildly, questionable. C’mon now.
The “Big Mac” thing is even funnier. I read that exchange with Mata and your inability or unwillingness to acknowledge such a simple concept just to be argumentative is stunning.
Also, about your anti-GZ conspiracy, explain to me why a REPORTER would lose his job for receiving leaked information about the GZ case? Especially, if the information are official case docs that were released a few weeks later? Btw do you have any evidence Det. Serino “conspired” with ABC or did you “just hear” a story? Too much…
Nope.. you could have asked me a decade ago and I wouldn’t have answered as you did. I knew better. Nor would I call it a “lie detector” test, since a polygraph uses completely different technology than a CVSA.
If you’d spend more time watching the entire CVSA video, and less time typing before you think, you’d know how and why he had no stress in his voice… which is all a voice stress test does. It’s rather a joke, when you see it. The far more interesting part is everything that led up to that joke of a test.
Might also be prudent to note that it’s been pointed out more than once what a cool cucumber GZ was, despite having killed a teenager who wasn’t committing any crime.
“seriously”, RT… the only one getting dizzy in the roundabout seems to be you, reversing and running over your own comments. Otherwise how would one explain a guy, who thinks a “lie detector” test, that really is a CVSA, “clearly proves” what “everyone knows” is “not infallible”.
Then, of course, the studies conducted by the DOJ’s NIJ determines it’s little more than a coin toss for accuracy. Seems to serve it’s purpose well as a PR tool tho.
Hi AJ. By quickly rolling your hip, it may be possible to access a handgun holstered in the 5 o’clock hip position, but you would still have to circumnavigate the mounted assailant’s leg in order to draw it. And an elevated hip doesn’t solve the conundrum of reaching into your waistband without bending your elbow, and releasing the assailant’s hand pinned somewhere between your bicep and ribcage. However, I have another problem with GZ’s portrayal of the struggle for the gun.
Zimmerman claimed that when his jacket moved up, Martin saw the weapon and reached for it. Even with a hip roll, I find it highly unlikely that Martin could have seen that weapon from the superior position (please refer to your illustration). Supposedly Martin was engaged in the act of smothering Zimmerman with both hands when he noticed the gun. This would imply that Martin was leaning forward from the hips, away from the gun, while exerting pressure on GZ’s nose and mouth. And the “wiggling” motion as you described it, would only move the handgun farther behind Martin’s back.
Zimmerman, on the other hand, wouldn’t have to make visual contact with the weapon; he already knows where it’s at.
Joaquin,
I don’t think the hip roll solves the problem, but it gives it some marginally less unlikelihood.
Agree 100% on the idea TM could see the gun, and posted that previously.
“Detective Serino on Feb. 29, where, after telling Zimmerman that he ‘passed a lie detector test’, Serino tells him that there’s a possibility Trayvon captured what happened with his cell phone camera. Zimmerman’s spontaneous response:
Listen to his voice when he says it, around 10:21 to 10:51 in the interview. I think that will be compelling to a jury.”
Just another little factoid, which demonstrates actions which are not the typical actions of a guilty man.
Mata,
keeping to the “not the typical actions of a guilty man” theme: regardless of the validity, or lack of validity, of a voice stress analysis: does the typical guilty person volunteer to take a voice stress test?
We’ve got GZ on the ground, being beaten (broken nose, black eyes, bleeding head), repeatedly wailing for help. We’ve got GZ constantly complying with every single thing the police ask him to do — INCLUDING taking a voice stress test. And, we have GZ spontaneously replying that he prayed to God that someone had captured the incident on video. You, even you, have to give some legitimate weight to the possibility that GZ is innocent, don’t you?
Also, thanks for the tips to the audio re “circling”. I will listen.
Well, since AJ has built his entire (almost entire) supposition based on his knowledge/experiences with wanna be cops like Zimmerman then I should be able to share a couple of the things that I have personally experienced in my 56 years on this planet.
1. When I was a young man I was mugged. The perp jumped out of the shadows, hit me in the face, knocked me down, and jumped on me. He stradled my body but was not in the perfect MMA top-mount shown in AJ’s illustration. Still, I WAS mounted. I wiggled, bucked, shimmied, etc. fighting for dear life. I was able to throw him up and slightly off me several times. Had I had a gun I might have been able to reach it. In the end I was actually able to buck him up in the air, roll over, and get on top of him. Unfortunately that’s when his accomplice put the boots to the back of my head and I was fortunate to wake up 24 hours later in the hospital.
My point. I know from personal experience that with physical struggle/adrenaline/fear the situation is dynamic, not static. Get over the “proof” that GZ’s story is “impossible”.
2. Due to my misspent youth playing HS/college football and college/club rugby I have had 5 or 6 concussions in my life and one fractured skull (car accident). In none of those incidents did I have open wounds to my head. So all this talk that it is obvious that GZ’s injuries were superficial is a bunch of crap. Perhaps they were, perhaps they were severe. Perhaps it doesn’t matter.
Let’s go back to the reasonable man standard. AJ, I put it out to you! You are on your back, on the ground, with a guy smashing your head on the sidewalk. Even if he isn’t doing it hard and the damage is superficial – is it reasonable for you, as a reasonable man, to be in fear of your life? ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Layman, the GZ story is “impossible” to accept as he tells it. The dispatcher call elapsed time simply belies his story in too many places.
INRE the injuries, has nothing to do with the open wounds, but focus, stability, cogent and normal reactions, heart rates and blood pressure that isn’t elevated… all documented as well within the norm by the paramedics immediately following the shooting… indicate that GZ’s injuries are not consistent with one in fear for his life, and beg an examination of an imperfect and unreasonable self defense.
gcotharn, sorry didn’t get to you sooner. My priorities on this are low, compared to SCOTUS dump week.
I would find it inconsistent with GZ NOT to cooperate. He thought of himself as a budding LEO, acted as an LEO, was attending college to become an LEO. Therefore he would be aware of the CVSA, and of course would want to cooperate because he carefully constructed his story to look as unquestionable self defense.
He built in threatening “circling”, even originally told them that TM tried to talk to him but he rolled up his window in fear (he dropped that concoction later), tried to portray all of his movements outside of the car as being the dispatcher’s specific instructions, and claimed an ambush while he was “returning to his car”… conveniently minutes longer than when it was originally requested.
There’s only two types of people who won’t think to get a lawyers after a discharge of a gun, resulting in death. A law enforcement officer who is being debriefed, and a dumber than dirt citizen. GZ’s penchant to think of himself as the former has proven him to actually be one of the latter.