Jun 26 2012
The Nail In George Zimmerman False Claims
This post extends analysis I did in a previous post.
There has been a lot of excellent analysis in the blogosphere regarding George Zimmerman’s claims about the events surrounding his killing of young Trayvon Martin. Analysis clearly in line with the results of the police investigation and the prosecution’s case. While there are many discrepancies throughout Zimmerman’s tall tale, some are simply too big to ignore.
(1) There is no way GZ could pull his gun as described. On his back with his holster against his hip, his holster inside his waistband, while being pinned by TM who is supposedly straddling him. This position means TM”s legs are blocking access to GZ’s waist area (especially if he wiggles ‘downward’ through the straddling legs), as well as the ground and clothing making it impossible to reach and pull a gun. In this position you cannot pull a gun on a wet and rainy night without some evidence on the gun. But the fact is GZ’s elbow is too long to reach his waist since he claimed to be pinning TM’s arm while attempting this trick. Impossible (see below for why)
Update: For all the doubting Thomas’ out there, you can disprove this yourself. Try and get your wallet of your pants laying on your back without raising you butt off the ground (this is within inches of where a holster would be inside a waste band). Then have someone straddle you and try again – note where their legs are. And finally, pin something under your right arm, have someone straddle you (with their weight on you) and try again. While the picture above is static, your own experiment will do the trick. In the last case your elbow must bend to get to your back pocket, thus the laws of physics and biology disprove the reenactment by GZ. – end update.
(2) There is almost no GZ blood or DNA on TM. TM should be covered with blood or DNA from the punching and from the claimed suffocation attempt. But there is none.
(3) There is no TM blood or DNA on GZ, which there would be if he was shot while straddling over GZ. Blood would begin to flow and should be all over GZ.
(4) If TM was really banging GZ’s head on concrete, there should be some fractures in the skull. Apparently there are no injuries consistent with multiple hard blows to the head.
(5) Finally, the path of the bullet in TM’s body is not possible from the position described , and really is only possible if both men are standing AND GZ’s arm is extended straight.
When you look at the bullet path inside TM’s body it is pretty clear that this was not a shot from underneath, which would be the angle if events transpired as Zimmerman claims. In fact, even standing the only way to get a gun that level is with your elbows locked straight out in a typical gun range position.
This post does a great job of highlighting some of these basic issues (and where I was able to collect the bullet path image)
You can’t break the laws of physics/biology/chemistry – this is not a fictional world. The crime scene evidence completely destroys GZ’s story, even before you get to issues like the timeline described vs the timeline recorded on the dispatch call, the lies about why GZ exited the car (to follow TM, not to read house numbers which were right in front of him). Basically, nothing beyond the fact he shot Trayvon appears to be true.
And why would GZ need to lie so much?
Because the truth is his actions led to the death of young Trayvon Martin. That is the only reason to make up so much fiction.
AJ: Regarding the picture illustrating the angle of the wound.
Ever watch a UFC fight? Often when a fighter has his opponent mounted he’ll raise up on his feet so he can drop an elbow down onto his opponent’s forehead. This happens in an instant and it got me thinking.
Look at your first photo showing the positions of the combatants. Clearly (the man on the bottom) firing a gun from this position would result in a wound angle from the lower torso upward toward the mid torso. To quote you:
(5) Finally, the path of the bullet in TM’s body is not possible from the position described , and really is only possible if both men are standing AND GZ’s arm is extended straight.
I think you are wrong with the last half of that sentence. Go back to the photo of the two fighters. Imaging that the fighter on the bottom bucks and/or the fighter on top raises up (on his feet) for a second in order to get more leverage and drop down a blow. At that instant the angle between their two torsos would be nearly parallel, resulting in a wound path as shown in the illustration.
This is what I think the defense will say when confronted with (your) scenario. They will say you are correct – if everything is static. However in a dynamic fight both parties are moving the entire time. They will make the case that TM was winning the fight, was in the dominant position, reared up to inflict greater damage to GZ, and was shot at that moment.
And if someone comes back with, “Well, GZ never mentioned TM raising up…” all they have to say is, ” He was fighting for his life. He was in a life or death struggle. You can’t expect him to know the exact position of TM’s body at every instant of their fight. They were fighting, GZ was able to reach his gun, and he fired it. That’s all he knows.”
Layman, this is not a UFC fight – neither were trained combatants.
And again your making up things in violation of GZ’s testimony.
Like I said, lay on your back. Have someone sit on your hips, hands on neck, ears, nose – you pick. When you pull the gun notice it cannot be straight and 2 inches off the chest. Arms in the way, etc.
It is IMPOSSIBLE!
Your fantasizing is not evidence nor biology nor physics. Neither was GZ’s when he made that crock up.
So know, I don’t expect him to know what is possible when he made up his lie in his head with as much effort as you did with your UFC non sequiter
Layman, if you need to hear what you want to hear, and therefore just answer for me… saying “wasn’t that hard and didn’t need nearly as many words”, they why bother to ask? Just go stand in front of a mirror, pose your question, and be done with it.
BTW, I’m wondering how that cry for help that was supposed to be Zim is so distinct and clear in between all that head banging… think Martin was just banging it conveniently in between the suffocating, the hand over his mouth, and head banging so that the cries could be so clear?
Maybe because that also didn’t occurr… or at least, couldn’t possibly have occurred were it Zim screaming for help.
Just another niggly detail of lies and deception.
Moving the goalposts now, Layman? Just can’t keep up with your hypotheticals here, guy. First you ask me if *I* would be in reasonable fear for my life. You don’t like my answer, so you fill in the blanks.
Now you want to know if I think it’s reasonable for GZ to have been fearful? Based on his behavior and choices…. no. He pursued someone. Must have been in the back of his mind somewhere that he just might meet up with the guy he was pursuing.
And apparently that thought was there, because he was packing while he pursued.
Strikes me that he wasn’t afraid one bit of TM, had less reason to be afraid since he was the one armed, and I also don’t believe the story of how TM got shot one bit.
About the only thing you can believe is that at time in the scuffle, TM was getting the best of him… and not for long. Zimmerman is a quick on the trigger kind of guy. The quintessential nightmare poster idiot that any responsible gun owner would shun as too stupid to carry.
Mata: Go F yourself. AJ ban me. I don’t give a flying F…
And you’re so hypersensitive as to resort to cursing… why? Did you, or did you not first ask what *I* would do, then change it to what I thought *GZ* would do?
Don’t know what your problem is, Layman. In fact, I actually answered both of your hypothetical questions, despiteknowing you wouldn’t accept either of them. But I certainly wasn’t rude to you in doing so. But it’s a futile endeavor to keep rephrasing a question, hoping to elicit the answer you want from me.
You sure get testy with sour grapes, guy…. sounds like a personal problem.
Classy way to speak to a lady Layman.
Really classy.
I had previously read that Zimmerman’s holster, as depicted in the evidence photos was a left-handed inside the waistband holster, worn in the cross-draw position (right hip – grip forward). This makes sense given that Zimmerman is left-handed.
So, how will the Zimmerman support group explain this contradiction?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIi3YlWBw7w&feature=player_embedded
Mata:
Apologies. Crude language is never acceptable. It is the last refuge of someone who cannot make a cogent arguement and you had me to that point when I read your last post.
The entire supposition of the conversation was that GZ had no right to be fearful for his life because it was his actions that led to the fight. AJ: “You can’t start a fight and then when you’re losing claim self defense”.
I happen to think that arguement is ridiculous, especially if TM doubled back and confronted GZ. I asked AJ multiple times what he would do if he was in GZ’s position getting hhis head banged on a side-walk. He never answered so I asked you to put yourself in the same situation and you danced around it and gave a BS answer that did not answer the question.
I showed you how you could have answered it directly and in a few words. You came back with: “Moving the goalposts now, Layman? Just can’t keep up with your hypotheticals here, guy. First you ask me if *I* would be in reasonable fear for my life. You don’t like my answer, so you fill in the blanks.”
So instead of a direct answer you dance around with htpotheticals on top of hypotheticals while claiming you don’t like to answer hypotheticals. It just made my head explode!
Layman,
Your hypothetical is stupid because law abiding people who know better don’t cause incidents where they then have to use deadly force (and go to jail for it).
Your supposition is just because GZ got scared he could take a life – and that is nonsense. He will go to jail not because he thought he would die and acted, he is going to jail because he pushed the incident to the point it went out of control (due to lack of SELF control).
Worse for you and your theory, is all the evidence this head bashing is a complete fabrication – which it is. The only thing I think TM did to GZ is the punch in the nose, which sent Zmmerman into his Mr Hyde rampage.
GZ was NEVER in life threatening danger. NEVER.
Science PROVES this. So why pay stupid ‘what-if’ games, except to give you some face saving refuge.
Personally, not interested in what-ifs and fantasies. All I care about is a dead kid who had the right to be where he was, who was assassinated by a fool playing cop. I want this to be a wake up call for all the other wannabe out there (like RT) whose ignorance of the rule of law provides too much opportunity disasters like this, and possibly the loss of the right to bear arms.
Jaoquin,
Wow! Are you kidding me? That was a left hand, back draw holster???
OK folks, then I can tell you definitively the shot did not occur in the position depicted. Not only was it impossible for GZ to pull the gun, he would not be aiming for the heart with a left hand.
Think about it, to shoot the left side of the body when face-to-face you need to use your right hand!
OK RT and others, give it up. The evidence proves without ANY doubt the killing did not happen in the manner DESCRIBED by GZ. He killed Trayvon from a standing position with GZ facing Trayvon but standing a foot or two to Trayvon’s right side, not straight face-to-face.
AJ, yes Zim is left handed. I can’t remember if it’s the Serino interview or the CVSA, but Zim signs something and is clearly left handed. However I don’t believe we know if he shoots left handed. I know some in the action pistol world that are adept with both out of necessity since some firearms aren’t necessarily friendly for left handers.
Here’s a picture of his Kel Tek 9mm PF9, holster and magazine from the crime scene evidence photos. Since it shows the right side of the firearm, it doesn’t appear to be rigged for a left hander as the mag release and safety are located on the left side, as is standard. Strikes me as cumbersome for a leftie to do a cross body reach for a left hand draw, and assume that’s the efficient way to release a safety for quick action. And I would hope he had the brains that, if chambered, it was holstered with the safety on. But what the heck do I know…
Layman, apology accepted. This case seems to get people emotionally charged, and tempers flare… almost as if it’s personal. Perhaps if someone knew either Martin or Zimmerman personally, it’s more understandable. Other than that, the State, the defense team and jury, overseen by the judge, will have to officially sort out what really happened. It’s not so clear cut, as the evidence shows. Many questions about the conflicts in GZ’s account need to be addressed for justice and truth.
For clarification, I did not say that Zimmerman had ” no right” for fear. You asked me if I thought he *was* in fear. That’s a subjective opinion, and I can’t speak for Zimmerman… but you asked. The man was bold in his actions to profile, to pursue in a car and then to pursue on foot, to continue to search after he was advised to meet the LEOs… and that’s not the actions of a man who’s afraid.
Should he be afraid because he didn’t have the upper hand on the fight? GZ and TM were not that unevenly matched. What height differences between the two was easily made up by Zimmerman’s additional weight. Neither were trained in the defense arts, so what it was came down to an unarmed fist fight, which happens all the time. Heaven help us if all fist fights are justified as unquestionable self defense when the one, losing the fight, discharges a gun just because he parrots the key phrase, “fear for one’s life”. This is the reason why there are so many manslaughter convictions for inappropriate responses on the books.
Nor is there any proof that Martin “doubled back” anywhere. This is, just as the bogus “circling”, another supposition by many that is designed to create a sense of a threatening Martin, when Martin was the one being threatened all along. This is the reason that Zim, the “wannabe cop”, used LEO savvy language and events in his statement to police… i.e. the “circling”, referring to Martin as “the suspect”, being afraid and rolling up his window when TM supposedly tried to speak with him, and even using the specific key words, “I was in fear for my life” in his original statements.
I don’t know when and how the gun came out, but it sure isn’t the way GZ described. From what I’ve seen and heard from Zimmerman’s own bizarre accounts is that he pursued Martin for over five minutes, Martin was aware of that and attempted to avoid him, and that Zimmerman himself says he was attacked by Martin when he “reached” for something. There seems to be a self defense case here, but it isn’t Zimmerman’s.
AJ Strata:
I never said this was a UFC fight. I never said they were trained combatants. All I said is that watching a fight got me thinking about an explanation the defense might raise. If there is a non sequiter here it is not from me.
Things are not looking good for GZ. I agree with you! The prosecution will definitely use your (should I say “settled”) science to prove that the angle of the wound proves GZ’s account is impossible. YOU WIN!!! From the static perception of the fight I agree (and did agree before). The defense is in trouble unless they can raise reasonable doubt by offering an explanation of the wound angle.
So is there a alternative explanation that fits within the context of GZ’s story of the fight that could explain the angle of the wound? Yes there is. I gave it to you. If you choose to ignore it and insult me rather than address it that’s fine. Its your house.
Why should we examine possible defense strategies? Its open and shut. No questions, no explanations, no inconsistancies from TM’s side – only from GZ’s side. Just ask AJ Strata.
Thanks Layman, and I hope you understand why I am intense about this case. GZ is simply the wrong person to represent responsible gun ownership and the right to self defense. There could not be a worse example, in my mind.
Hi Mata. I would like to note that if a left-handed George Zimmerman is a right-handed shooter, he wouldn’t employ a left-handed holster ( in cross draw position). The reasons for this are obvious.
Hi AJ. It is possible that Martin was shot on the ground, while in the superior position. However, this would imply that Zimmerman had drawn his weapon earlier in the confrontation, either just before, or during the stand-up struggle, and that the ground fight was in fact a life and death struggle for possession of the gun. And here I would submit that the party who was in fear of losing his life was TM, as evidenced by the horrifying shrieks for assistance which ceased as soon as the weapon was fired.
I would also submit that Zimmerman’s facial/head wounds were inflicted by TM’s cell phone as they struggled southward from the T area…on their feet. Once on the ground, it was all about controlling that gun.
Thanks for responding gentlemen.
Joaquin, I personally can’t make a definitive statement about the from the photo. As has been described, he wore it closer to the rear of his right buttock (not the right hip). Quite the reach to go that far around the body for a cross draw, don’t you think?
I also can’t tell if holster is interchangable in it’s mounting, having a belt mount also on the other side, since I can’t see the other side. Do they make these with loops on both sides as an option, or one only?
Just seems that a cross body draw… reaching with the left hand to draw from a holster around the hip to the right (rear) side… seems inconsistent when you consider the location of the safety and mag release on the firearm. It’s a completely insane set up to use as a left handed shooter.
If the pictured holster is flipped around for the belt mount, it would be a right draw for the grip placement, as well as a possible left draw… albeit a long way to go around a body.
The rest… no debate from me.
Sorry.. meant if it was a holster equipped with loops on both sides, it would be set up for a possible left draw by different placement. But I’m assuming what I see is the loop on the side of the holster showing. I can’t tell exactly what I’m looking at there.
Mata,
I think he would do a cross draw across the back, which would surprise just about any right-handed person. Pretend to draw with your right, pull from behind with your left.
Wonder if he ever showed that one off?
Joaquin, Zimmerman tends to “demonstrate” his movements that night on his video reenactments and when telling his story.
Note on Pt II of his video reenactment, at 5’23” in, he places his hand where he keeps his holster. It’s not on his side, but around the rear on his back. Odd placement for a cross draw practice, don’t you think?
Then notice that at 5’41”, he demonstrates that he “grabbed” his firearm… with his right hand. He demonstrates that he shot Martin with his right hand (some 30 ft away from where the body was found… LOL), goes thru the holding Martin down with his hand out bit. At 6’53”, he says his gun is still either in or near his right hand. At 7’17”, Zimmerman demonstrates “holstered my weapon”… again with his right hand.
I suspect that he was a right handed shooter, despite being a south paw.