May 26 2006
The Right Is Now Officially Blind
When someone compares Mexico to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda it is time to write them off your list of people to listen to:
Consult with Mexico about securing US borders? Can you imagine?
That’s like conferring with Osama bin Laden prior to implementing airport security.
You know, if you cannot discern the difference between a democratic ally and neighbor and blood thirsty terrorists you have some serious issues. The mindlessness behind this kind of analogy is pure hate and zero reason or rational thinking. Is this more ugly than childish? Tough call. But people so worked up into a foam-at-the-mouth lather that they equate Mexico (which is not perfect, but it is not at war with us) to Al Qaeda is a sign someone needs to walk away from the subject. And if they can’t, we will certainly walk away from them.
This is tantamount to declaring war on Mexico, when we need to engage them so they can do something on their side of the border to assist us in border control. Insults do not make allies. Mexico and Fox do not like what we are doing. Fine, they are entitled to their opinions. If they can disagree with respect I fail to see why too many over here cannot even exceed that minimal level of professional decorum. The world sees us as emotional ranters, so freaked out by fear of terrorism we are screaming our heads of at each other and potential allies.
I bet from the outside America looks like one big basket of fruits and nuts.
Yikes. Clearly this “John W Lillpop” (aka “alwaysontheright”) is one of those people on the Right who thinks that America has just been cancelled and it’s the fault of King Jorge Arbusto the Mexicano Candidante. I infer this from a glance at this guy’s archives.
AJ, perhaps you could run that opinion past the Border Patrol who are being shot at by Mexican military on a regular basis. Tell our understaffed, overworked BP that they are not in a war zone. Tell them that Mexico, who does nothing to prevent it’s military from aiding the drug cartel, that when the Mexican military comes across our borders with guns, that they are really allies who are only acting like friends.
And tell that to those BP who deal with the invasion of our nation on a daily basis. Or do you think that only those carrying weapons constitute an invasion?
Yep, I am sure the BP will be interested to know that they are not in the war of their lives. It will make them feel much better when they are being shot at.
Never mind, AJ, we already know what the BP who are NOT at war with Mexico thinks about your opinion.
“Arlen Spector, American Disgrace
Senator Spector, at the last minute, put in a cluase in the Senate’s shameful immigration bill that forces the United States government to “consult” with Mexico prior to planning or building any fences or barrier on our border. Not on Mexico’s border, but yes, on United States soil. We can’t wait to see this fencing project after the “consultations” take place. Maybe the can even appoint “Congressman” Raul Grijalva to lead the “consultations” for the United States of America. This is the same Mexican goverment who sends millions of their citizens here illegally to steal jobs ans end billions of dollars back to Mexico. This is the same Mexican government whose soldiers smuggle drugs and shoot at Border Patrol agents. This is the same Mexican government that is corrupt to the core. This is the same Mexican goverment that uses its consular officers to sue the United States goverment. Great move Specter. Talk about the “FOX” guarding the henhouse.
http://www.local2544.org
Local 2544 is the Tucson sector of our Border Patrol and the largest sector in the United States.
Guess they, the boots on the ground who are NOT in a war zone, don’t agree with you.
Retiree,
I ask a dumb question so I can get a dumb answer. Are the ‘Mexicans’ shooting at us at the border under orders from the Mexican government or are they mercenaries being bribed? I don’t think the BP should risk their lives or allow themselves to be shot at.
But of course, if these are mavericks or fakes, and the Mexican government will crack down on them, then we need to tell the government were we will be so they can capture these people.
I mean – duh!
So, what’s your answer? Do you have proof they are acting under orders from Fox’s government? And I want proof my friend, not rhetoric.
AJ, I think you are overreacting here, at least to the general resistance to giving Mexico any say in what we do at our borders if not to the specific rant you linked (which was over the top).
Consider, however, that Mexico does not deal with the US in good faith on the immigration issue (if for no other reasons than (a) the illegals serve as a safety valve for Mexico to avoid dealing with its problems, and (b) Mexico needs the money illegal immigrants send back.
On top of that, Mexico is still nursing its alleged grievances from its humiliating defeats by the Texans seeking independence and then by the US in the Mexican War. Many Mexicans – both here and in Mexico – somehow think they have a “right” to the Southwest and California. Nevermind that it belonged to no one before the Spanish except for the natives, and Mexico’s claim – such as it is – is as derivative of conquest as ours is. But I digress. Mexicand don’t like the US for the most part. They want our money, but not our way of life. Further, Mexico is a corrupt oligarchic society in which there is but a small middle class, and the majority of the people remain peasants engaged in subsistence farming.
I wouldn’t “declare war” on Mexico, and I’d be happy to talk to the Mexicans to let them know what we’re doing, but I would make it very clear that our decisions will be what we think is in our interest and will not be delayed for their convenience.
I was particularly troubled by Gen. Meese’s recent editorial that suggested that the 1986 immigration reform contained provisions for enhanced border security and employer sanctions that were simply not enforced. And the conditions for the amnesty were pretty similar, but again were not strictly enforced.
What reasonable basis do we have to believe that the politicians who did not enforce the law from 1986 until today will do any better tomorrow? None as far as I can see. That’s why I support an “enforcement and border security first” approach to immigration. Not out of vindictiveness, but simply out of distrust of our own political class.
Let’s seal the border and begin enforcing the laws against employers hiring illegals. Pick a couple of companies for full document audits and start prosecuting fraud. We could do that for a couple of years just to see how it works out without fundamentally changing the law or having mass deportations (which I think is a straw man).
As Reagan said: trust, but verify – now given the track record on enforcement, there is no trust, and until we can verify the seriousness of the government on sealing the border and enforcing existing law, there is no reason to trust these people further.
Gee, AJ, perhaps you should ask the Border Patrol who are being shot at. Now, if our American military shoots over the border at Mexican military, would it not be the responsibility of our government to disipline those American soldiers responsible for that act?
Proof the Federalies are acting under the direct orders of Fox? Nope, don’t have that. But tell me, what has Fox done in the last five years (the lengh of time that our Border Patrol have been taking fire from across the Rio Grande) to put a stop to it? What has Fox done to find out if they were Mexican military or mavricks? What has Fox done to clean out the northern towns in Mexico that are havens for the drug dealers and cayotes? Let’s take it even further, what has Fox done to stop the tunnels that are under the border? What has Fox done to stop the flow of illegals into our nation? What has Fox done to stop the drug cartel?
And I want proof, my friend, not rhetoric.
Retiree,
Without proof Fox is ordering these acts, that means he could be in a position to help stop them. Everything else you said is irrelevant until you prove otherwise.
AJ, the operative word here being “could”. Yes, Fox could do a lot of things to stop the crime that bleeds across our border. He could openly investigate the people who are dressed in Mexican military uniforms that cross our border and shoot at our Border Patrol. He could openly investigate the drug cartels. He could openly show that he is doing something productive to end the corruption in Mexico. He could actively shut down the northern towns that are full of drug dealers and cayotes. He could advise his people that it is illegal to cross into the United States without U.S. permission.
He could, but he is not. And since you gave me no facts on how Fox is doing any of those things, I guess it may be because you can’t.
When our military do things that are not in keeping with the UCMJ, we (our goverment) prosecutes those soldiers. No so with Fox, just put out a statement by some Mexican government lacky that these were “imposters” not Mexican military. Yeah, Fox is doing a lot.
Retire:
I think you are a great example of what AJ is talking about.
In fact I find you so disturbing I do not even read your comments and if people do not not stop acting as if we are going to have Mexican War 2 any day now the only thing they will accomplish is to drive everyone else the other way.
BTW I am sure that Hugo Chavez appreciates all the help the far right is giving him in his propaganda war against the US.
Whatever border issues we may have with Mexico they have gotten higher marks for working with the US on antiterrorism issues than Canada has.
Cato:
Meese is in no position to preach. He feels guilty because of Reagan policy and so now he is acting as if anything short of mass deportation is amnesty. The Senate bill passed yesterday is not like the 1986 bill. Meese knows that, he is just doing what a lot of the far right is doing right now…endulging in demagoguery.
And if they keep it up all they will have to show for it is isolation and failure.
The difference between “amnesty ’86” and “amnesty’06” is that we now have the technology to track people and make it work. We need guest workers and we must incentivise the illegals to self report. Indiscriminant blackballing of all illegals is counterproductive.
I agree with AJ. We are not going to get anywhere in this world by isolating ourselves. If we do, we will be ignored as irrelevent. Sure, sealing off the boarder a la East Germany and deporting every single illegal would probably make some people feel better emotionally, but would it be what is best for our country? I really don’t believe so.
There are two basic problems. We have Congress which has not explained the entire picture to the people and are concentrating on narrow “hot button” issues in their sound bites. This is understandable because they just don’t have the time nor the forum, really, to sit down and give an hour or two talk to the American people to fully explain the picture. We also don’t have a media that is interested in educating the people beyond beating the drum of their political agenda so again it is no wonder we hare having this fractured debate. I have been putting off writing a tome on the issue in my blog figuring it would take 3 or 4 long parts to give a full picture the way I understand it.
The basic trouble is that we absolutely need to get those workers into our system above the table and on the tax rolls. At the same time, the notion that if given quick amnesty we would face a flood of additional new migrants also hoping for quick amnesty. As I understand the “path to citizenship” issue, only those that have been here the logest already get any kind of fast path. What was being proposed the last time I looked would take eleven years for most to get citizenship. That isn’t quick.
I would also take issue with those attempting to push emotional buttons on issues by saying such things as we are giving Mexico a veto on our border policy. We aren’t and that issue is being exaggerated. The Senate added an NON-BINDING ammendment that said Mexico SHOULD BE CONSULTED in our border operations and I think that is the correct path. If I want to do fence work at my house, I would consult with my neighbors, particularly if it was a result of something they were doing or something coming from their yard. If I didn’t, I would quickly get the reputation of being the neighborhood asshat and would be ignored by my neighbors as an unreasonable, reactionary crackpot.
When people like Michelle Malkin crank up the emotional hype on an issue like this, it is mainly for their own gain. They want to take on the role of champion of people of a certain political faction and so they play to issues that are emotionally dear to those factions. I see that same game played on the left too by people such as Al Frankin. You push the emotional buttons to advance your own popularity. Often what is the BEST situation is not what is the most popular situation. Ronald Reagan understood that but what was unique in his case is that the people loved and trusted him and went along with what he said like a respected grandpa or father figure. We have nobody in politics that fills that uniting role right now and that is a damned shame because I believe that what Bush wants to do is truly the right path. But there is nobody standing up on the issues that people trust enough to give the benefit of the doubt so the factions are clinging to their hot-button issues and the champions of those issues rally their separate flocks down the road of discourse.
We need those workers in the system. We are going to need even more of them. Making them pack up, go to the border to fill out a piece of paper and come right back to the same house and the same job is just plain mean. You can give them the paper at home to fill out and it does exactly the same thing. It just doesn’t soothe the emotions of a certain faction. Having them go to the border and back would at least make some feel they were able to control things and that is basicaly all it is, a control issue. These people are not children, there is no need to order them around. They work hard, they deserve better than to be treated like children.
I have a ton more to say, I guess I will get to work on that tome next week, it’s going to be a long one.
Retiree,
I beg to differ. The operative word was ‘irrelevant’. Give me credit where credit is due – I don’t speculate wildly and against existing and known information. I speculate what is realistically possible or probable, not what is hyperbole and emotion. What in the world makes you think you are going to change my ways?
Remember the whole Dubai thing? How people went ape over the subject and then it turned out they were wrong about just about everything and when all was said and done, the only thing to show for it all was that Michelle Malkin’s traffic was up, Bush was down in the polls and one of our few allies in the Arab world was insulted. Meanwhile the Saudis are still running freight terminals. Like the 10,000 dead in Katrina and Coulter’s Ivy League hissey fit over Miers, these kinds of fights just end up leaving the participants looking like dumbasses.
Maybe people need to settle down and be reasonable. Just a thought.
Heh, and I am listening the pundits now and I am noticing the number of illegals keeps creeping up. First I heard 10 million. Then a couple of weeks later I heard 11 million. Then later in that week I heard 11 to 12 million and just now on Fox I hear 15 to 20 million spewed by some Congress critter that is against the bill.
Here is the truth: we don’t know how many there are. (by the way, the asshat on TV just repeated 15 to 20 million again) but I my gut tells me there are probably less than 10 million. The numbers bandied about are rectal extractions, they are SWAGs, they are made up. You put out whatever number advances your agenda.
We need to relax. We need better border security, we also need mechanisms for LEGAL migration that are simple and fair and discourage people from wanting to sneak in. But most of all we need to get the people that are hear already on the tax rolls and we need to seriously bust the chops of people hiring illegals. They wouldn’t be here plain and simple. If you want to know why they are here, it isn’t because of government policy, it is because Americans hire them. It is our fault. Stop hiring people under the table. Even if they have to get fake documents, doing the proper withholding and paying the proper wages at least takes away the economic advantage an employer gains from illegal employment. I don’t mean fines either. I would be tickled pink if a roofer or a builder went to prison for hiring illegals, not withholding taxes, not paying workers compensation and unemployment insurance, etc. They are the root cause of the problem.
End Catch/Release (big deal right there)
End illegal employment practices
Catch more sneaking across the border
Put into place a simple method for workers to fill jobs legally.
That would probably fix 85% of the problem. You are never going to get rid of the illegal migrant problem because it is estimated that half of illegals gained entry legally. They came in as tourists or students or some other way and just never went home. All the border controlls in the world would then only stop about half the illegals. Doing the items above would do much more.
I remember after 9/11 some one from INS said there were between 8 and 11 million illegals in the country…and since then the US has deported more than 6 million and returns over all are up about 300% over levels a decade ago.
But I think you are right, people do not really know..that is why the numbers keep going up and down. Long ago, back when there was a Bracero program people went back and forth and families were more likely to stay south. When the border people started to stop people more there was an unforseen effect: people brought their families and stayed. That way they did not need to risk getting caught at the border so often. Just goes to show you…
AJ, so you consider the operative word “irrevelant”. And to what would you apply that irrevelance toward? And just exactly what it is that I have been speculating about? Is it speculation that our Border Patrol have been fired on by men wearing Mexican military uniforms? Is it speculation that there have been massive tunnels dug under our border, originating from the Mexican side? Is it speculation that there is a hugh industry that traffics in human flesh? Are any of those facts hyperbole?
You asked me for facts that those Mexican troops were operating under the orders of Vicente Fox. I told you I cannot prove that. So are you saying that since there was no proof of those orders being originated from Fox that the incidents of firing on our Border Patrol didn’t happen or that it is “irrevelant” because it was not ordered by Fox?
And did I ever say I even wanted to change your ways? Why would I want to do that?
You can deny that Fox is part of the problem. You can deny that Mexico is a corrupt mess that has a true caste system. You can deny that our Border Patrol are working in a war zone. You can deny that Fox has done absolutely nothing to stop the problems we are having because of his nation. You can deny all those “facts” but it doesn’t make it true.
Terrye, it is obvious you don’t live in a border county. Those citizens, AMERICAN CITIZENS, are under seige.
And frankly, Terrye, I don’t care if you read my posts are not. The fact that you don’t have a clue about what life in the border counties is like is blatant.
There are other issues in play too. Drug smuggling is a multi-BILLION dollar industry. There are a lot of very powerful palms being greased in order to keep this flow going unrestricted. I have no doubt that many powerful people are involved in efforts to keep things just as they are now. Maybe the politicians aren’t being bribed directly but could be indirectly through campain contributions from individuals in whose interest it is in keeping things like they are. Same with people dependent on illegal labor. Builders putting up huge developments in Arizona and Southern California are often powerful people in their districts as they make large campaign contributions and represent “jobs”. I wouldn’t put it past them to even align with the far right “base” to attempt to derail this legislation in order to keep things as they are.
One comment I read here borders on offensive and that was the one about border counties being “overrun”. Overrun with what? For the most part they are being overrun by hard working, church going, job seekers. The large majority of these people are honest, hard working, and have strong family values. To be honest, I am not against having people like that immigrate to our country even if their skin is a little darker and they have trouble with the language. My great-grandmother could barely speak english. She thought in german. My grandfather was a private business man in a rural area and caught all kinds of flak in the 1940’s because of his german sirname. I even heard my own family in the 1960’s being referred to as “those damned krauts” once in a local grocery by someone who didn’t know I was the 3rd generation of that family born here. My family after three generations still wasn’t “American enough” in an area that had been settled by the English in the late 1600’s and run by the same families ever since.
But all of that is beside the point. We need the immigrants. We don’t see the need now as clearly as we will in 10 years but by then it will be too late. We need to make a system of legal immigration that removes the need to do it illegally for most people. Our current system is broken. It is dysfunctional. And if we just wall ourselves off from the rest of the world we will end up destroying the very thing we are trying to save. Reducing immigration at this point in history will bankrupt the country when the social security bill for the boomers comes due.
Oh, and at least in Arizona’s Maricopa County, the people favor a temporary worker program by about 60%. In fact, Bush’s proposals have very stong support in border areas of Arizona.
85% also want to hold employers accoutable for hiring the workers.
Poll data here.