May 28 2006
Congress Opposing Voters
In a fit of twisted logic, Congressional Republicans are afraid they will get voted out of office is they support any leniancy on immigrants – any!
Rep. E. Clay Shaw Jr. (Fla.), who is not known as an immigration hard-liner but is one of the party’s most vulnerable incumbents, said there is virtually no chance of a compromise this year that includes a guest-worker program or a pathway to citizenship. Shaw said the politics of the issue are more mixed in his Fort Lauderdale district, which includes a large number of hospitality firms and other companies that rely on low-cost labor from illegal immigrants.
But he emphasized that Congress needs months, and perhaps years, of public hearings to determine the economic effects of legalizing millions of immigrants.
In other words, even though a majority of voters (here, here and here) support treating immigrants whose only crime is trying to make a living and raise a family with some modest dignity, the reps need years to grow some spine against the more emotional and voiciferous conservatives.
Whimps. Just vote to give us a comprehensive package. It will take years to build the fence, expand the guest worker program, set up assimiliation support, document and background check people…
Stop whining Congress or there will be an American Kadima movement this fall. We need action, not handringing and talk of retribution. America is fed up with the ‘no compromise’ margins in this country who fight over everything and accomplish nothing. Give me more Tony Snows and less Savage-Begala.
I just sent my Congressman an email and let him know that kicking this down the road will only hurt Republicans.
If they think people will be upset about socalled leniency, that is nothing compared to the way people will feel if they put us through months and months of this crap and then do not pass a blessed thing. If the Democrats were in control of the House, they would pass something. I suggest these people remember this.
I think the big mouthed people have scared them. Squeaky wheel and all that.
“But he emphasized that Congress needs months, and perhaps years, of public hearings to determine the economic effects of legalizing millions of immigrants.”
Interesting study, but it has NOTHING to do with doing what is needed now, which is fixing the border. Play with the rest later.
Alan
Sorry, AJ, but I respectfuly disagree on this one. While I would not oppose a comprehensive reform IF I thought both Congress and the Executive were serious about the enforcement piece, I think the existing Senate bill is a very bad bill, and that we would be better off with no bill than with that bill or anything close to it.
While I have anecdotal evidence only, I don’t hear anyone saying they like the idea of things like ‘consultation’ with the Mexicans, letting those who are here illegally get a pass on past crimes or credit for the use of false social security numbers. Lots of legal immigrants I know find the favoritism of the illegals (who didn’t wait in line at home) outrageous.
When Chris Shays was home in the past couple of weeks, he got an EARFUL of unhappy constituents on immigration, even in relatively liberal Southwestern Connecticut.
I’d like to give enforcement a chance and see how it plays out while we think about how we should deal with those who are here, and who choose not to leave voluntarily as enforcement is stepped up and it becomes harder to get work.
hehe….Maybe those congressmen know something you don’t about how people feel regarding this awful Senate Bill. Could be they are wondering what is so good about a bill that Senator Kennedy is good with…or maybe they have been led down that moderate road before with Senator Grandstand McCain….which led to that gem of a bill the McCain Feingold abridgement of our 1st Amendment rights which YOUR precious President signed into law because he was so certain that the Supremes would send it to hell…ooops.
Pierre
Where I think you are wrong is, Republicans do want something to be done. They want enforcement, not forgiveness. I have voted Republican for many years, but if there is any forgiveness or Amnesty in whatever passes, I sure won’t vote for the Republicans that voted for it. Like PL said above, why would anyone consider ANYTHING that Sen Kennedy wants to be a good thing(PS don’t go for a ride with him) As former Rep Kasich said today, our parents told us not to jump the ditch or cut the line and if you do, you go to the back of the line, you don’t get a reward. Only support securing the border, once that is assured then we can talk about anything else.
The Senate bill is just plain bad legislation on so many levels.I believe the President has a vision for comprehensive immigration reform but since the White House doesn’t write legislation I see zero compatibility with the President’s vision and what passed the Senate. Perhaps the House can strip the most offensive parts of the Senate grandstand and still come up with something even though their going in position is no compromise. I’d rather lose the House and Senate and suffer years of Democrat investigations and their attempts at bad legislation – and yes the opportunity to get more judges in – than to be the party that ushered in the demise of this nation by passing immigration reform that simply opened the floodgates and gave preferential treatment to them.
What too few are talking about is that states are free to enact their own legislation if they wish. States can crack down on people employing illegals, states can do all sorts of things. Arizona is trying but they have a Democratic governor that keeps vetoing the legislation. I have no issue with private individuals that want to build a fence on their property, but that isn’t going to fix the issue. As I have mentioned before, about half enter legally and overstay their welcome.
As I have said many times, ending catch/release will do a lot to reduce the number of illegals and will give another example of why. If I am an illegal laborer here in the US and I know that if I get caught, I will simply be released, then I don’t feel so bad about bringing my family up. Now if we don’t have catch/release and I know that if I am caught I will be headed back to El Salvador, Honduras, Brazil, or whereever, I might be less likely to bring my family up with me.
If there was a legal work program that was easy and quick, I would have no reason to illegally enter. I could get my work permit, come to the US, work all summer while sending most of the money back home and then go home in the winter to come back again the next spring. My family could live much better back home on that cash than they could in the US. $100 goes a lot further in El Salvador than it does in Chicago.
These people aren’t coming here to get on welfare, they are coming here to work. Many work more than one job. If they were paid going market wages, had workmans comp and medical insurance like other employees, the cost to the public would be a lot less when one of them gets sick or hurt on the job. As it stands now, if they are sick they wait too long to get help and then show up in an emergency room with an illness in a much more advanced state.
Now if you are going to crack on illegal employment, you are going to have to provide a way for the illegals here to get legal. Otherwise you need to step away from the crack pipe if you think there would ever be some mass migration home. You would likely just force them further under the table, so to speak.
Oh, and to give another example of silly emotional legislation that does absolutely nothing in practice, english is already the “offical language” of California by state law. Doesn’t seem to have made any difference and neither would a law making it the “official language” of the US. It’s not like several million people would suddenly wake up the next morning to find themselves speaking english.
For all you folks who cannot discern missing paperwork with a felony, the day every aspect of your life follows every detail of governning law is the day you can begin to explain to me why drunk drivers are not deported before workers without a permit. You want to hold someone to the immaculate legal standard, be prepared. Is your trash can to code? Otherwise you are breaking the law and need to be PUNISHED!
AJ, if the government wants to deport drunk drives, as the adult child of a father who was killed by a drunk driver, I say “git’r done”. And yes, my trash can IS up to code.
“Missing paperwork”. Is that how you equate the violation of our federal laws? Then perhaps you wouldn’t mind if I steal your Social Security number?
You think by making all these people legal it will solve the problem of “missing paperwork”. Here is what will happen:
once legal, they will be commanding at least minimum wage. They will no longer be working for sub-standard wages. And jobs that pay higher than minimum wage will have those wages driven down. OK, so now they are making minimum wage but there will be more illegals to come into the country who are willing, once again, to work for sub-standard wage. Ooops, those 11 million illegals who are now working for higher wages just got booted out of their jobs by the new crop of illegals. Now what? We will have a whole new crop of people receiving welfare. Remember, they are now legal and are entitled to anything our government can give them. Your taxes just went up.
So if you have no problem with your taxes going up to pay for the new crop of welfare families, would you mind picking up my tab as well?
Okay, so you build a fence that completely shuts off people sneaking across. You still have 11 million illegals here and have cut the rate of increase by half. What do you do then?
Do you create a legal work permit program that people can apply for only outside the US? Okay, fine. Lets say you issue 100,000 of those. Now you have increased the total population of migrants by another 100,000 and the new 100,000 on valid work permits now must compete in the job market with those without the permits. The worker with a permit must show employment or they must go home which means they must get a W2. You have oranges to pick. Who do you hire? Someone who will work for $5 an hour with no witholding paperwok hassles or someone who you have to pay more AND pay Social Security on?
It won’t work until you can provide a mechanism to get the 11 million already here legal. They aren’t going to pack up and go home on their own because now there is a fence and they can’t get back. They aren’t taking the jobs of most Americans but they would be taking the jobs of legal guest workers.
Oh, and I once let my drivers license expire. I feel so dirty.
One thing I am not hearing from the far right is a workable plan for what you do with the 11 million that are already here.
Well lets see President Bush managed in 5 years to deport 6 million illegals…I know I know…Clinton managed 7 million in the same amount of time but at least Bush was only a little worse than the worse lawbreaker we have had in the office of President.
So then if in a total of 1o years we deported nearly 12 million people lets give it another try. No need sending the police out merely arrest those employers who are hiring them.
Or you could just leave the matter of the illegals in country alone for a bit, start enforcing the laws already on the books. Seal up the borders…prosecute employers and once we are confident that we have matters in hand we can discuss allowing some of those folks to stay.
Course that does not answer the question of whether those people once legal will still be attractive as employees since their costs per hour will match those already legal. In addition what makes anyone think that those illegals are that anxious to pay taxes?
AJ, if an American citizen has a trash can that is not up to code, he may pay a fine and get it up to code. If an illegal immigrant is in the country illegally(by definition) he should pay a fine and get up to code(get out of the country), then he would be legal. But that’s not the problem anyhow. This Senate bill is the problem. It makes no provision to secure the border, oh there are some words in there about it, but nothing to ACTUALLY secure the border. Speaking english, there is no requirement to learn english, only to enroll in a course(which U.S. taxpayers will pay for.) Then all these things about, if they are here two years or less, they go home. Who is to say who has been here less than 2 years? Why the illegal himself, all he has to do is sign a paper saying he has been here more than 2 years, that’s it. Even if we wanted to, how would you prove he was lying? And, who would even want to prove he was lying? Exactly nobody. So here is my proposal. Secure the border, nobody passes without proper ID and approval. That’s it, then when someone leaves to go home, they have to have papers to come back. Require Federal ID for anyone employed in the US. that’s it. Simple enough.
Yeah, I made that same point on my own blog entry on the subject some time ago. But I believe ending catch/release will have a bigger impact that people believe in two ways. The first is psychological. When word gets back that catch/release is over, the migration slows way down. We selectively ended catch/release for illegal Brazilians and it slowed down the flow from Brazil tremendously once word got back. Secondly, if I accept your 6 million deported number, think how many illegals we had contact with but didn’t deport that now will be deported just by ending catch/release. That’s a huge number.
Example: I heard a report from some Utah cops that said some nights they come in contact with 100 illegals just from normal traffic stops and vehicles broken down on the road. Say they stop someone at 3 am with a dead tail light to check for a possible drunk driver and they find a truck loaded with 15 illegals. Cop says it happens all the time, just about every night and often several times a night. They just let them go. Why? Because in the past when they have called ICE, ICE doesn’t want them. So they don’t even bother anymore. They cite the driver and move on. If you end catch/release, those people can be turned over. Utah has an even bigger problem that I am not sure I would want to get into on someone else’s blog but suffice it to say there is a politically significant group there that has an interest in keeping things just as they are now. There might be a number of vocal opponets to change among that group as well.
There is going to be a big effort to stalemate this thing to make sure nothing is done. There are going to be people that pretend to be on the far right making a lot of noise about it that really have an economic interest in keeping things as they are. There are several powerful groups in that category. Look out for bloggers and blog commenters you have never seen before this issue came up and who you never see again after it goes away. Chances are they were just there to toss wood into the fire or stir the pot to sabotage anything at all getting done.
Keeping things as they are now is the worst thing that can possibly happen and people in the far right digging in their heels on this issue isn’t going to win them their way, it is only going to cause a stalemate and we end up with the crappy system we already have. But that is going to suit a lot of people who need that illegal labor for their business or who have a vested interest in seeing an uninterrupted flow of drugs across the border. People making money off illegals have a lot of pull and they are in corners one might not expect.
All I will say at this point is that this blog is a good place for adult discussion of issues of the day. Examine the comments and compare them to poll results. In my view there is evidence of a disconnect.
AJ
I want to relate something I witnessed today. Where I live on memorial day weekend we have this thing called a “blue crab festival” , it is a local gathering of people to have a good time and remember the memorial day weekend. Part of the gathering is our sort of town meeting sharing of our views with our local representatives. They show up and ask questions of the crowd and like new england town meetings they take show of hands polls on issues of the day. Well on one isssue that obviously came up the congressional reps at the gathering asked our opinion on the senate bill. The crowd was probably in the normal size of around 1400 people and when asked if they supported the senate bill the show of hands was 6 people. Yes that was the number six. Six out of 1400 , not a raving endorsement to me. Just something I observed and repeated. No agenda here. But if that kind of feeling is here where I live, I question the validity of the polls that are being reported..we usually are close to poll values and this really misses the mark.
One has to wonder how much people really know about the Senate bill. I haven’t read it. Have you?
Merlin:
That might be because the Right has so misrepresented the issue and so much less informed about things than they think they are that most people do not even know what is in the Senate bill. I wonder how many were saying “What Senate Bill?” or for that matter how many people were saying “I don’t want to even deal with this, count me out” and so they just kept mum. In fact I wonder how many of them were liberal Democrats. That is some scientific survey you got there.
Ask most people this, “Would you rather see a compromise bill that allows for a guest worker program but also enhances and increases enforcement and builds a wall and/or a barrier or would you rather have zip?” And see what happens. No one is saying that everything in the Senate bill can or should stay, I am sure the Senate knows that..the question is whether or not the same Congressional Republicans who insisted something be done about the border kill a border enforcement deal out of sheer spite.
Tony Snow and Rush:
RUSH: But, you know, I’ve always fantasized about having your job for one day, and I generally have this fantasy after watching David Gregory and the “zoo†that you referred to earlier, that was really hit a peak with poor old Scott McClellan. But I don’t think I would want it right now, because I would have a tough time doing your job. I know you’re speaking to the press, but I don’t understand the disconnect that exists between Washington and constituents. It’s a bigger disconnect than I’ve seen in 18 years: illegal immigration, the reaction of the House leadership to the William Jefferson search, office search. Everybody in Washington seems tone deaf on immigration to what the American people want and say, and it defies logic, and I don’t know how you explain it to people.
SNOW: Well, I mean, for instance, the issue came up today, and you and I probably disagree at least in part on this, but my view is the president’s right, and I’m not just saying this; I said it while I was running a radio show, that if you’re going to deal with this problem, you gotta deal with everything at once, and here’s the reason why. I think border security is something that’s going to take a couple of years to get right. So already, by the way, the president is going to start moving assets first week of June. He’s not going to need a special bill from Congress, and that’s the good news. But the fact is it’s going to take a couple of years to get every
I’ve agreed with that from the beginning. If you don’t deal with all of that on a legislative level from the start, then there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to come back later and fix this or that thing. If the wall is built but we still have catch-and-release and we don’t beef up the internal security measures like the biometric card that employers have to check, then there will be gaps in our security.
Putting the biometric cards into the legislation while beefing up the catch-and-return operations seems like the logical thing to do.
RUSH: You’re talking about the wall?
SNOW: I’m talking about the wall; I’m talking about electronic surveillance; I’m talking about getting Border Patrol agents trained up, because at different places you’re going to need different stuff. In some places you need a wall. In some places you need agents, and in some places where you’ve only got, you know, 200 miles of Sonoran desert and mountains, you probably need sensors and surveillance. You put in place what’s necessary to make that part of the border secure. So it takes a while to do it. Now, I don’t think anybody wants to sit around and wait to go after employers who are hiring people illegally and know it. You want to go after them right away, and I don’t think people want to wait to figure out who the illegals are. You want to find out that is rapidly as possible, and I, frankly, don’t think people want to wait to start figuring out what we do with the 11 or 12 million illegals, and that’s really what the president… It’s interesting. I’ve heard… Every conservative I talked to on Capitol Hill says, “We want to do that stuff, but we want to do it later.†My answer is, “Why? Don’t you want to go after employers now and don’t you want to figure out who the illegals are now and don’t you want to start solving this mess now?â€
RUSH: But the Senate bill doesn’t do any of this though!
SNOW: Well, sure it does. What the president’s proposing does. I mean, you take a look, for instance, at the issue of illegals. You get these tamper-proof IDs with biometric stuff. You can’t fake that. Now, once you have that in place, employers no longer can say, “Man, I don’t know. That birth certificate looked okay to me, and that fake driver’s license, I thought it was legitimate.†Suddenly you’ve got something you can’t fake.
RUSH: Why should we believe there’s going to be enforcement now when there hasn’t been since ‘86, there hasn’t been in Simpson-Mazzoli?
SNOW: Well, a couple of reasons.
RUSH: Because the enforcement appears to be voluntary on the illegals. They’ve got to show up to pay the fine. They’ve got to show and up go to the back of the line. They’ve got to show up and do this. Now they’ve got to show up and get this card, this ID card. What’s the incentive for them?
SNOW: There are several reasons. First, on the ID card, again, you get the discipline from the employer side. The employer doesn’t have it, and they’re doing it, and you and I have seen places, you know, in our neighborhoods and elsewhere where guys were probably illegally, they get there they work early they do all the stuff but they’re illegal! Now if all of a sudden somebody shows up and says, “Show me your cards,†and they don’t have it, that does change behavior. The other thing is, this issue is of far more concern now than it was in 1986. From 1986 until, what, eighteen months ago, most people didn’t give a rip. I mean, they really didn’t. Now all of a sudden it’s top of mind, which means the people who see activity that they find objectionable and illegal, they now think, “Okay, I can call the government to do this. I can call the cops on this. I can call the Border Patrol. I can call the legal enforcement.†They suddenly realize that you’re going to have a government that also has gotten a message because for a long time people didn’t the give a rip, and, as you know, this town, Washington, response when people say, “Hey, you gotta do something,†and I think the message has been received pretty loud and clear. We need to do something.
That card, coupled with the threat of being raided, will change thinking in a heartbeat. Suddenly, the employer has to think that that ‘cheap labor’ might get awfully expensive. Some idiots will accept that risk but I’ll bet that most won’t.
Furthermore, when jobs for illegals dry up, that incentivizes them to go through the legal channels.
RUSH: We are not enforcing the laws of Simpson-Mazzoli now, and because we didn’t enforce them we’ve got this problem.
SNOW: We’re not enforcing a law that said it was a misdemeanor for which there’s no punishment! How do you enforce a law that says, “Oh by the way? There’s no punishment.†How do you enforce it? I mean, the whole point of having enforcement is to have a penalty —
RUSH: That’s not what I’ve been reading.
SNOW: — and guess what important thing they forgot to do? They forgot to do what the punishment was.
RUSH: It’s not misdemeanor. It’s a felony to cross the border illegally.
SNOW: No, it’s a misdemeanor.
RUSH: It is a misdemeanor?
SNOW: They wanted to make it a felony in the House bill. It’s a misdemeanor!
RUSH: All right, then I am misinformed on that. By the way, in 1986, just two more points here, they developed a form called the I-9 and the employers were to question employees and those forms are to be audited, and they rarely are including in this administration. The I-9 formed contained information about an employee’s place of birth, et cetera. Now we’re going to have the card, the ID card apparently replacing the I-9. What’s the difference in a piece of paper form and a card if it’s not going to be audited and if the —
SNOW: Number one there’s going to be money set aside for more vigorous enforcement, and I think if you’ve been…You can have somebody do a Google, or you can Google, you’re computer-literate. You can take a look and see that there has been pretty stepped-up enforcement. If you look at a lot of local papers recently, you’ll find businesses where they’ve gone in and been forced to pay fines or in some cases shut down because they’ve been knowingly using illegals and in some cases these guys can’t even fake it. They don’t even have the fake ID or the fake birth certificate. There’s a big difference between being able to, you know, to go to some convenience store and have somebody in the back room make up a fake ID. You can’t fake your fingerprints or the, I mean I don’t know what kind of Jack Bauer stuff they’re going to use, but it’s going to be something that is unique to that person. You can’t fake that stuff.
RUSH: I’ve researched the card. I understand all of that, but it’s still, if an employer still takes somebody who doesn’t have a card and you don’t find out about it, the government doesn’t find out about it, then —
SNOW: Yeah, but don’t you think, and this gets back, you don’t want the government monitoring every business. You and I both know that if you said, “Okay, we’re going to deploy somebody to look at every business,†you and I would both be absolutely going crazy about it.
RUSH: They already do. That’s the point!
SNOW: But, but, but, but —
RUSH: These small business owners are so papered over with regulations —
SNOW: Exactly.
RUSH: — the IRS and everything else, and these people are getting a free pass!
SNOW: Yeah, but, as I said before, you know generally what industries are going to be affected and you also know that their competitors are playing by the rules. In the past, as a competitor, you think, “What do I do here?†Now what they can say is, “Okay, you go over and find out if that guy’s got the cards. You find out if that guy is doing what he needs to do.†The marketplace sometimes does, as you know, there’s fierce competition, and from time to time guys –
RUSH: I understand that.
SNOW: — more often than certainly happens now, people are going to blow the whistle on those who are bad actors. Right now you’re absolutely right. Why do you do it? Well, it’s not happening as often as it should. Now you’re going to have a law that has a specific penalty that lays out the steps, you know, is going to have fines for employers and other sanctions against employers. All of that stuff has just sort of been kind of whimsical. It’s a lot firmer now than it used to be.
I think that a lot of folks do not know anything about the Senate bill and they do not want to discuss it in public because people get so bent out of shape about this. I have a transcript of part of the interview between Tony Snow and Rush and I was astounded at Rush’s ignorance on the subject.
I know a lot of people who would just as soon not even think about all this, people hate this debate. With all due respect Merlin that is not exactly a scientific polling, I am sure there are neighborhoods in LA where a meeting like that could draw tens times the people and get the opposite response.
A question to ask would be “Would you rather see a compromise which includes enhances border enforcement, an end to catch and release, stronger penalties for people who hire illegals, a guest worker program, a wall or barrier at the border or would you prefer zip because the Congress refuses to do its job and pass legislation when legislation is needed?”
I don’t think anyone, including the Senate, expected everything in that bill to go through, the point is people prefer consensus and resolution to grandstanding. If they let this die, then I say leave it dead. Just forget it, they obviously are not capable of governing so to hell with it. Let the states take care of it or let it go, but to subject all the country to everything from trying to make illegal entry a felony to the Minute Men building their own fence and then refusing to resolve the issue because you might not get everything your way just proves to me that a lot of the Right are not grownups, not really. So either act like grownups and give a little or do the rest of us a favor and stop ranting and raving about everything when you obviously do not want to resolve the issue.