May 30 2006
Conservatives Don’t Get It On Immigration
I have read all across the major conservative sites where people say we cannot have an comprehensive bill on immigration (i.e., expand the guest worker program and document the immigrant workers) because it is not where ‘the people’ are. That’s a hoot. It is were most of us our except the far right conservatives. Check out this reasoning from John McIntyre at RCP (someone I admire a great deal):
This is a critical juncture for the GOP on illegal immigration and how to fashion a comprehensive solution to the broader immigration debate. … This past weekend two beltway icons, David Broder on Meet the Press and Bill Kristol on FOX News Sunday, encapsulated the conventional wisdom by saying President Bush would benefit from passing a comprehensive reform bill. They are wrong – especially if we are talking about any compromise that looks remotely like the Senate bill that passed with 85% Democratic support over the objections of nearly 2/3rd of Senate Republicans. Kristol, Broder and the majority of establishment intelligentsia don’t appreciate the political dynamics at play in the broad middle of the country.
Actually they do. The broad middle is not ready to make felons out of people who work for a living. I live in Herndon, ground zero in this debate. The issue of illegal immigrants is hot here ever since the town council decided to create a magnet for day workers to hang out and find work. The problem was unemployed people massing in large numbers near neighborhoods where they would just hang out all day. They never addressed that with the day worker center – they just moved it from one place to the other. That is not a guest worker program! Note that these people are not working and that is the problem. And yes, do not use our tax dollars to promote illegal acts. That was adding insult to injury.
You will find large group houses in our neighborhoods that violate our neighborhood bylaws and have traffic in and out of them 24 x 7. It takes months to get rid of the excess people if they want to stay in the house. This is also not a guest worker program. These people need to follow our by-laws and stop overcrowding rentals.
On the flip side, there are many immigrant families who work hard and live in the area and are our neighbors. No one is ready to see them rounded up out of their homes and schools. No one. There are problems, but we don’t want the Police State to come in fully armed and threatening to deal with them at gunpoint. We want a better solution. We want a comprehensive solution.
The ‘middle of America’ is much more sophisticated than people realize. Check out these poll numbers:
Dowd’s memo says that an internal RNC poll conducted by Jan Van Louhuzen finds that “overwhelming support exists for a temporary worker program. 80% of all voters, 83% of Republicans, and 79% of self-identified conservatives support a temporary worker program as long as immigrants pay taxes and obey the law.”
There is no way 20% of the people on the right make up the American Middle. What conservatives risk is alienating the 80% who don’t just oppose their ideas, they viscerally despise them and how they have been communicated (the old ‘you are with us or you are scum’ approach). The overheated rhetoric took a really nasty idea like deportation and just made it even uglier.
McIntyre is right, this needs to be handled carefully else all the trust that has been built up over the years convincing people conservatism is not some mean, heartless, ugly variation on the Nazi’s (the favorite spin of liberals) will be lost.
There is a quiet rage building among average middle class folks on the illegal immigration issue, and if the Republican leadership doesn’t take control of the problem very soon they will allow the more extremist wings of the anti-immigration debate to become the face of the Republican party on immigration.
Actually, that has already happened. And it is working against the Republicans and Conservatives. Right now I oppose any idea of rounding up people at gunpoint and deporting them so much I would – easily and without a second thought – work to tear down the Republican majorities to avoid that policy.
The Miers fiasco was an early indication of the dark side of conservative mob-think. It was all kicked off by David Frum at National Review who clearly had a personal ax to grind against Ms Miers, and a lot of people blindly played along in his vendetta. But Frum’s vendetta would never change the face of America.
The Dubai ports fiasco was also driven by fear and ignorance – but this time it was more than someone’s personal issues. We successfully insulted the best ally we have in the Middle East and spurned a country that was willing to pay for the installation and use of the most sophisticated cargo screening systems at their ports world wide. That would have meant goods coming here would be checked prior to leaving the foreign port. That PR disaster pretty much convinced me the conservative movement had run out of gas and was flailing around trying to find something relevant and big to debate. And it came very close to impacting us as a nation.
How we treat immigrants (and people in general) is another thing all together. That is the essence of America. It has been our edge and superiority over the rest of the world. We did not treat people differently based on nationality or culture. American’s also never used laws about simple paperwork to disrupt peoples’ lives. It takes massive fraud for these so called ‘white collar’ crimes to invoke jail time.
Libertarian conservatives, in the old days, would never reach for a silly number pulled out of Congress’ wide posterior to be the basis to brow beat and harrass people. The difference between a legal guest worker and illegal one is where they were in the line to get permission to come here. Congress thinks up some number each year, based on absolutely nothing, and declares that the number of immigrant workers we need each year, all year. It is abritrary and, like most things out of Congress, totally irrelevant to reality. That number separates a person working to raise a family from his neighbor – nothing more. That is the basis for be called a law breaker.
That is like saying the first 50 people who speed by a radar trap will be allowed to go free and the remaining will be ticketed to the fullest extent of the law. The same actions are legal for those under the number and illegal for those over it. And I cannot for the life of me find any reason to deport (or harrass people to the point they are forced to leave) someone based on such a ludicrous thing as this number.
The American people understand there is no simple, magic-bullet solution. Conservatives would be wise to stop trying to convince us there is. At this point, I am wondering what other descriptive term I can use to describe my political views, since Rep and Con are becoming so tainted that I find it harder and harder to identify myself that way.
I have shunned becoming a Republican (again). Reagan and Bush nearly got me to join up. The loud mouths in their parties reminded me why I refute partisanship. The ‘follow or else’ mentality in both parties is completely un-American. America was supposed to be about ‘work together and find a solution’. But cons are now worried that Bush has found some Democratic supporters for his immigration plan. If Democratic support is all the conservatives have to wail against, then (a) they are completely out of arguments on the policy and (b) they are heading down the wrong path with Americans. Democratic support is no more wrong than Republican support. It was OK when we went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
America deserves a comprehensive solution to a very complex problem which has been simmering for decades. We do not deserve arguments like ‘this cannot be right because they are for it more than we are’. We deserve much better than that and we are waiting to see if anyone can deliver.
Preaching to the Choir. I call them the George Wallace conservatives. The best thing about true conservatism is its pragmatism. Unfortunately, as with most things racial, this pragmatism gets lost. Let’s see, applying the “enforce the law, dammit, mentality would result in support for the following pieces of legislation passed by duly elected legislatures:
1.
1. Jim Crow Laws
2. Prohibition
3. Nurumberg Laws
Do we want that? Let’s properly diferentiate “Amnesty” from “misdemeanor” and work on integrating those who are a net benefit to the country. And after 11 or how many other years, these people have proven their worth, then by all means they should become citizens. They have done more to become true Americans than a lot of lazy ass conservatives who do nothing but complain and live off of the decision made generations earlier to come to America.
If you follow the debate the felon clause on the house side was put up for removal by the republicans and kept in by the dems for political point at em leverage. Interesting logic , we support the worst part so we can blame you for it. Just another day inside the martiniway..ah beltway.
Here is what the Border Patrol Union Boss says about that “moderate” Senate Bill on immigration.
Border Patrol union boss: Tighter border won’t help
By Timothy Pratt
Las Vegas Sun
The head of the labor union that represents U.S. Border Patrol agents said Sunday the sweeping immigration reform bill passed by the Senate last week will do little to stop the “revolving door” he sees daily along the nation’s border.
In his first public speech since passage of the Senate’s bill, T.J. Bonner told a Las Vegas gathering of those opposed to illegal immigration that lawmakers had created “amnesty on steroids.”
After describing what he considers decades of failed policies, Bonner said the solution isn’t more Border Patrol agents, National Guard troops, technology or walls on the U.S.-Mexico border.
The answer, he said, is to “turn off the employer magnet ¦ (and) focus on the reason people are crossing borders.”
Btw again you offer no arguments backed by facts on why the bill needs to be comprehensive except that you don’t like “Far Right Conservative” perhaps you are too young to remember that the Republicans couldn’t get elected as dog catchers prior to Reagan igniting the Conservatives.
You have lost perspective and it is a shame to watch an otherwise rational person get emotional and feel the need to build all sorts of strawmen to hammer “Far Right” conservatives.
In my article Trust an easy thing to lose.
Why did President Bush fritter it away on illegal immigration? Ver 2.0
I show why it is terrible that President Bush has frittered his credibility away on immigration. That is what hurts our war on terror.
http://www.papadoc.net/2006/05/trust-easy-thing-to-lose-why-did.html
AJ,
You said, “Right now I oppose any idea of rounding up people at gunpoint and deporting them…”
“…there are many immigrant families who work hard and live in the area and are our neighbors…”
If you add in the President’s continued litany about “…taking jobs Americans won’t do…” you have engaged in the same type of spin that one sees so commonly on the left. I know of no one who has recommended rounding up anyone at gunpoint; We are not talking about simple immigrants, but illegal, immigrants. Americans will take the jobs if they pay appropriately.
I don’t consider myself to be a frothing at the mouth conservative, but I am rationally and firmly convinced that there has to be some order to immigration into this country, and that those who would start out their “citizenship” with an illegal act shouldn’t be here.
The mayor of San Francisco feels he can flaunt those laws he doesn’t agree with, the Congress doesn’t even think laws should apply to them, a President gets a pass for lying to a grand jury, a government official gets a slap on the wrist for stealing and destroying classified documents. The rule of law is rapidly being eroded in this country. Giuliani found that enforcing even the smallest of laws led to much better adherence to all laws.
I want there to be an enforceable border (with all that entails: border agents, fences, high-tech, the whole nine yards). I want that to be so ingrained in the final outcome of the debate that, when enacted, it will not be subject to future party or plea without a national discussion.
I am not interested in being fair to illegals. They took on an illegal enterprise with, one assumes, full knowlege of the potential consequences. They should understand that in pursuing the illegal course, all they have risked could be for nought.
I am not interested in the plight of the employers (from individual homeowners to industrial farmers). If you can’t make an enterprise pay with ingenuity and good management, you should go broke (or move into a house on which you can more readily afford the upkeep).
I firmly believe that most of this country’s greatness is based on overcoming hardship and on competition. Regardless of how hardworking, family oriented, religious, these people are, taking the initial illegal shortcut isn’t going to make them good and useful citizens.
Dennis,
I did not say those words so your point is meaningless. Try and stick with what I say instead of putting words in my mouth. You are extreme in the view working for living without all the proper paper work is a serious crime verses a misdemeanor. Deal with it.
I have to agree. The problem is we have unworkable laws, and the answer to the problem we have is not to mindlessly enforce them to the letter.
An American Kadima is probably emerging in the near future. It may well be that in the aftermath of 2006, the Republicans will tell the hard-line conservatives to get lost.
AJ-
The RNC poll also seems to be verified by the latest Gallup-USA Today poll. Have you seen the details of that?
Story
Breakdown of Data
Hardliners- 25%
Unconcerned-23%
Ambivalent-27% {“Support letting illegal immigrants stay and work toward citizenship but also the most likely to say their removal would help the economy.”}
Welcoming-27%
Obviously they did some rounding- the percentages don’t add up-but you get the idea.
I think it is more reliable than the Zogby poll where the House and Senate Bills were both reduced to one sentence each.
But guess what poll will in the end get the most exposure on Conservative blogs.
Congress has yet to understand the dynamic of blogs and the internet and how the side that thinks the Senate and Executive is moving in one direction does not call their Representative in the House in a panic because they don’t see that they are losing the issue.
As an aside it is interesting to note the almost putsch like tactics to get the debate to end. Censorship, intimidation and end of discussion like tactics. Hate mail sent. Even on the fence-as a member of the military community I’d like to know what the hell is expected of my guys again and even Hugh Hewitt says “fence-shut up.”
Here is the damn deal the US military is not a miracle worker we have limits and that is why the Katrina crap is so frustrating. The military was trying to evac assets out of the proported path of Katrina and the last minute change of the FORECAST sent the military scrambling again. Guess what the military community is comprised of HUMANS. GAWD give us a damn break.
Also the military will never be able to protect you from one guy with a canister. Terrorism works that way by creating TERROR and a sense of paranoia in the community to where lack of trust in the government is a desirious effect.
Unfortunately the game is one of cold hard numbers, and organized governments enabling terrorists with the ability to kill the MOST is the A#1 priority.
But ya let’s toss out the Bush administration that has been successful in keeping us safe and let the Democrats take it. The ones that practically sat on their hands as the USS Cole, the US embassies in Africa, and the Khobar Towers were tested….
Let’s let the Democrats who have telegraphed to the rest of the world and in particular terrorists that nothing is worth fighting for unless Hollywood fantasy two bit players can- Believe! Really, really BELIEVE! {They’re even contemplating outloud whether winning the House would be worth it…}
Let’s all kiss the Princess of Propaganda who rewards the rest of the blogosphere-like three year olds with positive re-inforcement- with links when they finally get back in line and tow here. {I’m sick of some finally having the guts to criticize her then next thing you know they are effusing rhapsodically when Mich’ deems to give them a link. You work hard to find someone that is independent and she can have them looking like sellouts in two seconds.}
She is again today linking to Polipundit and saying or “suggesting” that the President could -you know- be impeached because he ordered a hold on the FBI findings and only Gonzales saved the day. Ya right Michelle not even the Dems came up with that one…
Impeach a War Time President -who has successfully protected us because-ummm maybe you’re bored.
The clowns that follow her and who wan to impeach the President I guess they’d rather appoint Michelle-Queen they are so incapable of questioning her.
The Right blogosphere is going to go down if they don’t disentangle from her.
I’m at the point that if the Dems win at least the guys I know might get a chance to sit on their asses for once and whatever happens will happen to all of us and the military community won’t have to shoulder practically the whole damn thing. The way Republicans have wanted to “forget” and have “changed their minds about the war” is perhaps worse than what the Dems spew.
Idoits like LGF who think that the immigration issue isn’t supported by isolationist aspects of the Republican party are in for a rude awakening. The Middle East is not the top priority of the deportation crowd just ask their extremist spokesmodel -Pat Buchanan.
OK, AJ, let’s deal with what you said:
“I live in Herndon, ground zero in this debate.”
No, AJ, ground zero is where you have to build a fence around your house and barn so that you can go to the store and not come home to having everything you own stolen. Ground zero is where you have to carry a firearm for protection just to feed your cattle. Gound zero is where it is an everyday job to fix your water lines, pick up the trash, call 911 to pick up an illegal who is in medical distress, have motion sensors on your fence and home, and lock the place up like Fort Knox. That AJ, is ground zero.
“The problem was unemployed people massing in large numbers near neighborhoods where they would just hang out all day”.
But it is not a problem where that “neighborhood” consists of whole towns? And what do these unemployed who are hanging out all day, not working, do at night? Where do they get the money to survive? Can you tell me what the crime rates are in border towns? Want to bet that it is a little bit higher than in Herndon?
“You will find large group houses in our neighborhoods that violate our neighborhood bylaws and have traffic in and out of them 24 x 7. It takes months to get rid of the excess people if they want to stay in the house. These people need to follow our by-laws and stop overcrowding rentals.”
So in other words, they lack the proper “paperwork” to live in those houses. And your neighborhood bylaws are worth more than federal immigration laws. You don’t want “your” neighborhood overcrowded by law breakers (the neighborhood by laws) but it is OK if they overcrowd my neighborhood? You really expect those who do not care about our federal immigration laws to give a damn about your petty neighborhood “bylaws”. So which is it? You want them to obey laws or not? Or do you just want them to obey the laws in your neighborhood?
“No one is ready to see them rounded up out of their homes and schools. No one. There are probelms, but we don’t want the Police State to come in fully armed and threatening to deal with them at gunpoint.”
Once again, AJ, you have to resort to hysterical rhetoric. Gun point? Where does that come from? Who advocates that? Have you been taking talking points from the radical left? Why don’t you just call all of us who believe in the rule of law Nazis?
“Dowd’s memo says that an internal RNC poll conducted by Jan Van Louhuzen finds sthat “overwhelming support exists for a temporary worker program.”
OK, so where does the Senate bill provide for that? Where does it say that the illegals will be temporary? It doesn’t. As a matter of fact, that 600 page gorilla says that ALL “guest” and “temporary” workers can, in fact, become permanent. Do I have a problem with “temporary guest” workers? No. I have a problem with the bill giving everyone a path to citizenship, why BTW, they don’t want anyway. Or did you not notice the Mexican flags waving during the marches. Think those marchers were pledging their fedelity to the United States?
“How we treat immigrants (and people in general) is another thing all together. That is the essence of America. It has been our edge and superiority over the rest of the world. We did not treat people differently based on nationality or culture.”
No, we did not treat them differently. We did not print ballots in German, Italian, Gaelic, Dutch or any other language. And we still don’t. We print ballots and every other damn thing, in English and SPANISH. We expected immigrants to learn our language and to assimilate. We did not provide “English as a second language” for Irish, German, Italian or Dutch students. We expected them to work to become Americans and put in a little effort. We do not celebrate the day Ireland became an independant nation or the day the Berlin wall came down. Nor do we celebrate Bastille Day or Liberian independence. But we watch our government and businesses promote the day Mexico gained freedom from Spain, Cinco De Mayo.
So please, explain to me why you are upset that there is an day worker site for illegals in Herndon that affects your neighborhood but you are not upset that many towns have the problem 24/7. You are upset that those centers are magnets for illegals but not that citizens who live in the border counties have to carry firearms just to take care of their property. Explain to me why you are upset that your neighborhood bylaws are being violated but not our federal laws on immigration. Why are your neighborhood by laws more important than our federal laws?
Anyone who wants to be here legally and is sincere about it, should have no problem going back to where they came from and do it right.
So quit painting all of us who want to see that happen as Nazi black boots who hate immigrants. We want immigrants who want to be citizens, not just come here for the benefits.
Just a non biased observation here the few are addressing.
Let us for the sake of argument assume legalization occurrs.
May I hear real suggestions to where is the low cost housing to support this?
Most of the low cost housing areas of this country, especially in the most impacted states are simultaneously be bulldozed under emminent domain procedures to build half-million dollar condos.
I doubt the near minimum wage new legals will quite be able to qualify for loans on one of those units.
And one very big point that is left out of the debate is the very real threat of the spread of communism in Mexico, and elsewhere in the southern hemisphere. ..and China increasing its presence there as well.
We are fighting to give freedom to many around the world. So it is appropriate that we are working on finding a reasonable resolution to our boundary issue at the same time maintaining our Freedom and Libery for all. This is complicated and complex with many views. I personally detest the “my way or the highway” mentality. I am sorry, but maybe THEY will need to learn a lesson at this time.
No one will be 100% happy. Afterall, where in this world is anyone 100% happy 100% of the time about anything in their lives, pray tell?
I praise George W. Bush for tackling this problem head on, as he has done so many times with so many issues. He is the right man in the right place at the right time.
I really don’t see this as much of an issue. We have extraordinarily pressing national defense concerns at this time.
I do not think anyone is ever going to agree one hundred percent with any party platform. This is not a perfect world. In a perfect world, the righteous would win and they would be backed by the righteous. There would be no error.
From what I have seen there is some split on the immigration issue. I think this is largely a loss of focus. If there are wrong stances within a party, oppose them. Speak out against them. Do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
America is right on a larger number of issues then any other country on the planet. The same might be said for the Republicans against other political parties. Where there may be misdirected zealousness, the truth is… their properly directed zealousness against the evils of this world are something which is rare and precious enough to justify them… regardless of some misdirection.
Corruption can happen anywhere. You have to fight it. When the good say nothing, evil wins.
I do not stand for either America nor her conservatives because they are the penultimate expression possible for righteousness… rather, they are the hill standing high over the valley of molehills. This is not the greatest possible… this is the greatest there is.
It can be lost. It is not lost yet.
If good men give up… believe me, it will be lost. If you remove that which is good, what then is left?
I doubt if many (usually) rational people would really want to “round up at gunpoint” all, or even most, of the illegals.
The real flash point, I think, in this entire kerfuffle, was an emotional reaction to demonstrations with upside-down American flags flown below flags of other nations, and the “We demand rights — No Gringos!” Quite frankly, some of it got my own blood boiling.
Which was apparently the purpose the organizers had in mind. And, boy, did it work!
That aside, it’s primarily a money issue — right or wrong — and it’s been building steam for about 20 years.
True, most illegals come here to work, not to try to game the system. But there are nevertheless enormous costs to taxpayers: Health, education, various social services.
And, illegals (and many not-yet-assimilated legal immigrants) from Mexico and other Spanish-speaking areas move several families into one-family dwellings — pushing a (collective) property tax burden onto the rest of the community members. “Self defense” measures such as town or village statutes attempting to legislate minimum space-per-person or to limit numbers of “extended family members” requirements into their local residency laws, are almost uniformly tossed out in legal challenges as “discriminatory.”
Meanwhile, under-the-table paychecks do not include deductions for federal, state, and SS withholdings, yet millions in SSI (Supplemental Security Income) payments are paid out to those who have paid little or nothing into the Social Security system.
Natural and naturalized Americans, citizens, cannot tap into Social Security benefits until/unless they’ve paid a minimum, ten years I think (is it 40 quarters? Something like that), into the system. That wasn’t changed in the 1974 or ’78 “SS reform” act which essentially converted SS into a welfare program, but the addition of SSI benefits under that reform allows payments from the SS system to non-participants, including undocumented applicants.
Most of these problems are made in DC, not the fault of illegals. The best solution though, I think, would be to reverse the economic measures which give either/or, illegal aliens and immigrants, legally sanctioned preferential treatment over natural-born and naturalized Americans. Immigrants, of course, who are naturalized citizens, ARE Americans, as much so as those of us born here.
It is many of these ‘compassionate programs’ that light an angry match under the most laid-back citizens paying the bills. The current Senate bill has a couple of examples — pay back taxes on any three of five years? Eligibility for SS if paid under a false number, with no stipulated time requirement of paying into that phoney account?
Why? If life, liberty, and opportunity is an adequate litany of rights for citizens, why should an extra measure of “rights” for non-citizens be paid for by the rest of us?
I think a decent plan could combine rescinding ALL taxpayer funding of/for non-citizens, while handing the bills for their healthcare, education and social services to the activist organizations, including the churches, who aid, abet and encourage illegal entry.
Most of them already have fund-raising licenses and tax-free status. If they were raising funds to actually help the people they claim to be helping, I’d donate. So would many, many citizens. But donations are voluntary, and the cost does not belong on the back of taxpayers.
Repeal of the 16th Amendment with simultaneous passage of the Fair Tax Act would also correct the disparity, as well as to bring the entire underground economy into the tax base.
I was listening to a conservative talk radio show on the way to work today. After a commercial break, the host set the topic as the Senate immigration bill. He started off with “Folks, let me tell you what’s in this bill …” and then began to go down a list of items that had, in fact, been proposed ammendments that were defeated. I turned the radio off.
It is bad enough the these people are risking doing more harm than good with their idiotic tirades, they are misinforming the public on what is in the bill. When stuff like this goes on, I begin to smell “agenda” and the agenda I am begining to smell is one of “leave things just like they are, we are making boatloads of money currently and don’t want anyone to wreck it”. So what will happen is that ANY proposal will likely be shot down … and then folks will complain that nothing is being done.
My fellow Americans … sometimes I think you are dumb as posts.
AJ you said:
Dennis,
I did not say those words so your point is meaningless. Try and stick with what I say instead of putting words in my mouth.
Sure you did, go back and read paragraph 10 in your column that has provoked these comments.
You need a course in Logic.
You said: ” where people say we cannot have an comprehensive bill on immigration (i.e., expand the guest worker program and document the immigrant workers)” and, so you say we can?
What is a “comprehensive” bill? The one in the Senate only does one thing, it makes illegals, legal. That’s all it does. Saying it is “comprehensive” doesn’t make it so. This is one of the few things that I have heard President Bush be dishonest about. I normally believe what he says, but he can’t make me believe this is not an Amnesty Only bill.
Also:
Conservatives Don’t Get It On Immigration
What is it we don’t “get”?
I get it that the Comprehensive bill is just a smoke blowing exercise.
In para 10, you said:
“Right now I oppose any idea of rounding up people at gunpoint and deporting them so much I would – easily and without a second thought ”
Who seriously advocates this? give me to a link somewhere where someone is saying this. I read all the blogs and I haven’t seen it. I have seen a lot of people saying that someone is advocating it. but they are being dishonest. Just provide the link.
You said:
“We did not treat people differently based on nationality or culture.”
So why do we want to start now? Let’s treat everyone the same, print everything in English for everyone.
And you quoted: “Dowd’s memo says that an internal RNC poll conducted by Jan Van Louhuzen finds that “overwhelming support exists for a temporary worker program.”
That’s probably true, but where is a “temporary worker program” in this bill. All I see is a permanent one.
All any illegal in the country has to do is sign a handwritten statement that they have been in the country over 5 years. That has to be accepted as a fact. It can not be questioned. If the INS person questions it, he can be fired. The bill specifically provides that the statement can not be investigated beyond the paper it is written on.
So what part of all this do you not “GET”. You show me a comprehensive bill that “SECURES” the border first and I will support it.
For Enforcement:
You need reading lessons, and you also need to learn manners. Here is Dennis’ comment:
“If you add in the President’s continued litany about “…taking jobs Americans won’t do…†you have engaged in the same type of spin that one sees so commonly on the left.”
I will accept your apology when you can drum up enough class to offer one. But if you think you are going to come on my site and try and insult me – you will find yourself banned.
The Senate Bill includes strengthening our borders and increasing penalties for employers. NONE of these efforts will be in place before Bush leaves office, so there is no need to do something ‘first’! Comprehensive means mult-pronged verses myopic, it means strategic verses tunnel vision. If you are trying to get this ‘conservative’ to embrace your cause you are failing miserably. But you are proving my point that the uncontrolled anger on the far right is repulsing the majority and this country can and will progress without the far right if we need to.
Been done before and can be done again.
CROSSPATCH
You said:
“I was listening to a conservative talk radio show on the way to work today. After a commercial break, the host set the topic as the Senate immigration bill. He started off with “Folks, let me tell you what’s in this bill …†and then began to go down a list of items that had, in fact, been proposed ammendments that were defeated. I turned the radio off.”
The part where you said:
“Folks, let me tell you what’s in this bill …†and then began to go down a list of items that had, in fact, been proposed ammendments that were defeated.”
Let me put it bluntly: I think you are not telling the truth.
If you were listening to a “Conservative” he would be objecting to the amendments that were passed, not the ones that were defeated.
So, to clear this up, tell us what amendments he mentioned, what did he say was in the Bill that really “isn’t”
I can tell you that conservatives want the bill defeated so they would be talking about what is really in it. Anyone that knows what is in the bill would, assuming they have more than one brain cell, vote against it.
I am an Independent and I voted for Bush, in fact I have voted for Republicans in general for some time, but I find this debate to be so vicious and nasty on the right, that I have begun to wonder if I will continue to vote for them.
I believe in fighting Islamic fascism, but it seems that the isolationist Buchaninites have taken over the GOP and all they care about is making life difficult for Mexicans. It is their number one priority and the rest of us are just traitors or fools or whatever if we do not share their compulsion and obsession.
I would like to see a compromise that at least begins to deal with the larger issues, otherwise we will be left with nothing and that makes me wonder if that was the whole idea to begin with. This was just something to whip up the troops, get the old circle jerk going among the conservative blogs [who actually seem to think they represent all of America] and in the end it will be sound and fury signifying nothing.
Except that people like me will wonder just what the hell the right is smoking.
Enforcement:
Oh come on, I hear these guys blowing off all the time about stuff they know absolutely nothing about. The other day Tony Snow had to point out to Rush that illegal entry is a misemeanor. You would think that considering the amount of time and energy people spent running off at the mouth about this, they would at least have a basic grasp of the facts.
But you are a good example of people who do not.
Enforcement,
Try and keep your two brain cells civil here please.