Jun 29 2006
Denial On The Right
Readers keep claiming there are no polls showing how small a minority the Tancredo Taunters represent in this country. Normally I would not do any homework for people (I have my own work to do), but in this one case I will oblige only to watch all the obvious denial and rationalizations and dismissals from the usual suspects. The question is how many people oppose a guest worker program and therefore would not want or allow any legislation to pass that includes one? Very few it turns out:
CA 3/06:”Two-thirds of Californians support a guest-worker plan, the poll found. Among registered voters, the majority was slightly smaller, at 60 percent, while among those not registered to vote — half of whom are noncitizens — support for the plan was higher, at 73 percent.”
National 04?06:”A new poll by Time magazine found 79 percent of the 1,004 adults surveyed by phone Wednesday and Thursday favor a guest-worker program that would allow undocumented immigrants to stay in the United States for a limited amount of time.”
AZ 04/05:”The other issue that found wide support in Arizona was President George W. Bush’s Guest Worker Program. Sixty-two percent of all registered voters support his plan and 29 percent do not support it.”
AZ 04/06:”Forty-three percent of the state’s voters support allowing the nearly 13 million people illegally in the United States to register here and to earn U.S. citizenship if they have been in the country for several years. Another 18 percent said these immigrants should be allowed to register in a guest worker program.” Note: 26% chose to deport them or make them criminals, see results near the bottom.
)3/06 National:With the immigration debate raging in Congress and immigration supporters spilling out into the streets, the latest TIME Poll finds a lopsided majority of the American public, 72%, favor a “guest worker” program in a head-to-head match-up over a House bill that would criminalize illegal immigration. Only 1 in 4 (25%) supports the more drastic House version that would make illegals felons, allowing no illegals into the country, with no guest worker provisions. “
Are there conflicting polls? Of course, depends on how vaque the question is. I chose polls that did not hide the core question behind vaque references that required ‘interpretation’ to determine the meaning. And there are more polls out there that support the contention Tancredo’s forces are 20-30% of the population. Just check these polls out. In fact, time shows the more Tancredo Taunts the more people abandon his hard line positions.
The most interesting poll is this one back in 2003, before the Tancredo mess poisoned the air with their overheated rhetoric. It showed what was possible:”In the first survey of its kind, most Mexican immigrants said they would participate in a temporary guest-worker program similar to the one proposed by President Bush, according to a poll by the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research organization in Washington, D.C. … According to the survey, nearly three-quarters of the 4,836 Mexican immigrants polled said they would enroll in a guest-worker program such as the one outlined by Bush.”
See what we could have done. 8 Million of the 12 million here would have stepped forward and come out into the open before the far right began mucking it all up with their calls for mass deportation. That would have really reduced the number of places Al Qaeda could have hidden. But not now.
http://www.strategicvision.biz/political/georgia_poll_062806.htm
or pick any of these
http://www.strategicvision.biz/political/results.htm
Wiley:
Two things, it is not true that the Senate Bill had no provisions for security, it most certainly did and btw the whole point of taking a bill to conference is to deal with issues that need dealing with. By refusing to do that the hardliners brought the process to a screeching halt.
And you know what? The more the far right yells about this the more shrill they sound and the more shrill they sound, the less the rest of us listen.
Maybe you guys think that anyone who disagrees with you is part of some plot with Fox to destroy the US and do away with our southern border but I am getting to the place where I can not even stand to talk about it anymore.
And you know what? That damn border has been open for years and to see all these people get so freaked out about reports like the one above is stupid. Deadlines get missed. Go blame the military or the Governors,oh no let’s take a cue from the left and do something original, like blame Bush. sheesh…. everything is a big deal.
It is all the end of the world. Well I got news for you, if a bill ever really gets passed, lots of deadlines will be missed. That is life and if that is all it takes to send you into a hissy fit then you need professional help.
Gotta love them “virtual” walls. They really do work. That is why there is one around Area 51.
Just like all the little cameras that Rick Perry is going to put on the border. That way, even AJ can see the invasion while it is happening. Oh, yeah, you will be given a number to call to report you saw some illegals sneaking into the U.S.
Press #1 for Spanish
Press #2 for English
But since our government really isn’t sincere about sealing the border, you can press #9 or just hang up.
Here, AJ, since you seem to think I am so “far right” here is a “far right” web site for you.
http://www.local2544.org
http://www.strategicvision.biz/political/results.htm
Pick a poll
Retired: That is indeed “far right”! Oh, wait—a UNION?? In a right-to-work state? In a solidly-blue portion of the state (for at least 30 yrs)! They must be the only Republicans in that area. Makes ME downright blue.
And Pagar: If Rasmussen poll was not good enough, none of these polls are valid either, since they say the same thing. And my 5 stat courses in my doctoral program left such a gap in my understanding of polls that I also needed professional help–just in a different content area than Wiley.
Sarcasm off: Everyone really should read Retire’s link to get some idea of how folks on the firing line feel–even if it is over the line. It’s an exaggerated view of what John Q Public feels here, and, excluding the emotion, suggests the type of actions that would lower the frustration levels that have erroneously been identified here as a ‘fear of illegal immigrants becoming citizens’. I know of no one that is feeling that particular fear.
WILEY, Terrye said to you:
“Two things, it is not true that the Senate Bill had no provisions for security, it most certainly did”
She clearly has no clue on this, totally clueless.
“And you know what? The more the far right yells about this the more shrill they sound”
And if they get about 4 octaves higher, they might get about half as shrill as she is. And you couldn’t get to the left of her extreme far left position on the illegal immigrant issue
“but I am getting to the place where I can not even stand to talk about it anymore.”
Notice she said “talk about it” , she never has had anything of substance to say about it. She clearly doesn’t understand it.
“That damn border has been open for years ”
And she damn sure doesn’t see any need to do anything about it.
So you are clearly wasting your time if you’re reading her comments.
retire05, hey at least with all those cameras on the border the Illegals coming in will have someone to high five to as they cross over.
And “virtual walls” they are to stop virtually nothing. It’s strictly part of the “feel good” feeling you are supposed to have about somebody “doing something”.
It’s obvious that Terrye & AJ are cluless to the details of the senate bill — and, no kidding, changes can be made in conference.
A paltry 370 miles of fence, and only in consultation with Mexican officials? A few more border patrol agents, but only if appropriated each year, and no guarantee that the numbers won’t revert after 2011? If you’re not going to build a fence, then you need many more agents than what’s proposed. Add in the social security sham and too-easy path to citizenship (basically, no proof of residency required), among other problems, and you have a terrible bill and lousy starting position for going to confernece. That’s why the logical compromise is to pass a bill that’s serious on border security, possibly coupled with a guest-worker program, and then figure out how to deal with the illegals here. This is not radical or far right or whatever other moniker is reflexively thrown our way.
AZredneck,
Professional help? I believe our postings show we’re on the same page with a compromised, phased approach … did you really have to take the same stat course 5x? (sarcasm now off)
Wiley:
370 miles of fence vs what, another couple of hundred miles in the House bill? Do you think the house bill calls for someone to go to the southern border and wave a magic wand and voila 1400 miles of fence spring up? The whole point to the physical wall is that it go up asap in urban areas where people people in large numbers. In the deserts, technology can work as well or better than the physical wall because people can always find ways to climb walls in isolated settings. But if there are drones and sensors and other technology out there it is easier to find and track these people and it will not take a decade to get them out there. The fence will take a long time and if you demand physical fence only then there will be a lot of the border unproetected for a very long time.
This is so stupid.
Specter has said the Senate would go for a border security first approach if the fanatics will just come back to the table and discuss it and what to do we get? Well we have to have a three hundred foot high fince with two hundred foot foot foundations and it is has to be there yeesterday or we will just take our football, go home and make sure no one gets anything and the border is left just like it is.
As for people on the firing line, their was more support in the border states for the Senate bill than elsewhere because they just want something done about the problem other than Tanredo running his mouth. But the point is so far the House has done nothing but bitch and exactly what does that do for the people on the firing line?
And no is is not true that if one poll is invalid they all are. There are such things as push polls, and using suggestive language such as “some people say” is a dead give away.
Just ask do you support a guest worker program… Do not ask, some people say that if we have a guest worker program our culture will cease to exist and Spanish will become the official language, in spite of this ominous possibility do you support a guest worker program?
That sort of thing.
And yes wiley your postings show that you would rather have nothing than compromise. It is your way or the highway and the rest of us might as well just not bother to have an opinion at all. But don’t think that means you ight be a tad obsessed, no siree just keep screaming at your fellow Republicans and make it plain that our opinion is worthless.
This might be why so many more people are self identifying as Democrats.
Wiley: My sarcasm was not directed at you. You missed earlier rock-throwing.
This might be why so many more people are self identifying as Democrats.
Ahem, you make your point very well, for example?
Yes indeed, if you don’t want a secure border, run off and call yourself a democrat. Yunk, Yunk, Yunk, that cracks me up.
“if the fanatics will just come back to the table”
This is a poor attempt at humor, of course it is the fanatics that are at the table. It’s the sane people that left.
But then that whole diatribe by Terrye just emphasizes how clueless she is on this issue.
Really a total waste of time reading it.
Terrye, I cannot believe you are just so oblivious to what I posted.
You complain that there is just a couple of hundred more miles in the House bill for the fence, but you never acknowledge that most property in Texas and Arizona is private land and the government can only commit to building fence on federal land until it has landowner permission to build on private land. So we just take the $4.7 billion a year Texas is spending on illegals and build the fence. Deal?
And how about a poll that isn’t jaded? How about asking a question like this:
“do you favor a guest worker program if the illegal is not required to apply for the program from their native country”.
The polls are designed to get a specific answer consequently, no one asks a question like the one above. They already know the answer and that is not their goal.
More support for the Senate Bill in the border states? Are you just totally delusional? Did you not bother to read the 2006 TxRP platform? Doesn’t seem like they bought into the Shamnesty bill from where I sit, and that is as a delegate to the convention. But then, I guess someone who doesn’t live in a border state would know more than border state residents. Yeah, right.
Rather have nothing than compromise? Yeah, again, you and AJ stick to that. It is wrong, but you stick to it. I guess you think that we have no laws now on the books that need to be enforced.
Funny, no mention from you on how, when the Hasert announced that there would be hearings all over the country on immigration reform, the Hispanic groups like LULAC and others have started screaming? If there is such support for them, why do they object to public hearings? I think you know the answer to that and you don’t like it or want to admit it.