The Washington Post reports today on an experiment that restored the sight of blind test mice by transplanting cells from the eyes of healthy mice: Blind mice regained some ability to see after getting transplants of cells taken from the…

The ESC is ‘out of the bag’, but it will never succeed. The math alone is against it. Not to mention adult stem cell research has 72 therapies on process and ESC has zero.

The sad thing is we will have killed humans for nothing. Nothing. Let that sit with you and digest it. We killed humans for nothing.

The horror of what is going on will echo through the ages of humanity.

Big Dog, your hour long post was so good that I have copied it into my Google notebook on Stem Cells. You mentionned:

“Egg cells, once fertilized, start a staging process of development…meaning embryonic stages of cell division begin after successfull fertilization, with 2 pronuclei”

I am reading Ian Wilmut’s book , After Dolly. He pointed out that after fertilization two strands of DNA are located in two nuclei that combine are a time. I assume that is your pronuclei. It seems that the development of an embryo is not the instantaneous creation of an individual but is instead a gradual process with many steps that we are only learning now.

Finally, after following the discussion, I see no answer to the problem of in vetro fertilization. From memory, I believe that 500,000 fertilized eggs are disposed of each year. What is the relationship of those eggs to abortion.

No the good doctor- doctor debunked, is wrong. No typo was made.

BIGDOG, don’t nitpick over typos. I’m sure THE GOOD DOCTOR meant in utero, as opposed to in vitro fertilization. Oh, and do calm down a bit.

That said, I am not much troubled by the use of early embryonic cells for research. It is not self evident to me that fertilization is the point at which we should be considered either morally or legally human persons. Implantation, which I think is what BIGDOG was trying to argue for in his first post, is at least as important a milestone in human developement.

I am inclined to view gestation as a continuum, with minimal moral implications of damage to a newly fertilized ovum, but that a nearly full term pregnancy is morally equivalant to a newborn baby. I am open to hearing arguments for the position that fertilization is the only, or most important milestone. I assume that the moral and legal arguments would be separate but related.

BTW im a republican.

Oh and the good docctor doesnt even know where fertilization takes place. He says uterus…LMAO!!! try again for 100.

Fuck it.

Are you against IVR?

However what i did get was a bunch of innuendos, insults, inferences and to me ZERO points for discussion. Now you people ignored my question, but i will address each one of you and your false assertions first.
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marchtogether.com
I am not a liberal or a nazi. your inference of such is insulting and the you took what i said out of context because i corrected what said. Heres the correction, you basically misquoted me. I hate to break this to you, but experminenting on human beings goes far back in human history.

My correction goes unnoticed so you basically twisted what i said. Very disengenious are your part.

“To me any staging cellular process, outside the fun way, is not a natural occurence and therfore is not considered as natural occurence of life persay, but rather a cellular developement outside the mothers womb. After its process of cellular divisions; sometimes several embryos are reinserted back into the mothers womb for the now, in hopes for a natural duration.”
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AJ
I never claimed to be an expert or even having a BS in biology, you say you never persued. However say what you want about about my education, yet somehow your reading comprehension would say the same. You dont know me well enough to assert such bullshit into this. In fact you want to insult me into surrender….lol try again. You also misquoted me just like march did. See above in quotes.
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good doctor said:
“As a physician and scientist I can tell you tha fertilize egg is not a staging experiment. No difference from fertilization in uterus. The sad point is that people like BD will kill a baby with no after thoughts but will scream if someone clubbed a baby seal.”

WOW…this is truelly not a doctor. There are definite stages of development in the process and i never claimed it was an experiment. Your word not mine. Fertilization occurs in the fallopian tubes good doctor and not in the uterus. Your next lie really pisses me off and was very insulting. Your new name is doctor debunked.
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For enforcement said:
“I find it remarkable that you don’t consider humans that were a product of IVR to be real people.”

I never said that, you did. God you poeple have twisted it three different ways so far. So now that i have the time i will explain to you your own misleading accusations and how human cloning will NOT be part of this initiative.

point 1.

I asked about IVR for a very specific reason. By summation of some of the content of your attacks towards me i assume most of you agree IVR is ok with you. Meaning you agree with IVR process. As i mentioned earlier IVR and SCNT are kin to each other. Let me explain. They both are related by means of cellular biology, one is fertilized, the other isnt.

In vitro fertlization (IVR) is a very lengthy process and is done in a controled enviroment. This is the unnatural part i am refering to. Not to mention they are maintained in laboratory dishes, in a nutrient mixture, acting as a substitute environment, otherwise provided in the fallopian tubes.

I quote myself again “is not a natural occurence and therfore is not considered as natural occurence of life persay, but rather a cellular developement outside the mothers womb. After its process of cellular divisions; sometimes several embryos are reinserted back into the mothers womb for the now, in hopes for a natural duration.”

Sorry i am very accurate in my description. Meanwhile back at the ranch….cellular stages begin to devolope.

Egg cells, once fertilized, start a staging process of development…meaning embryonic stages of cell division begin after successfull fertilization, with 2 pronuclei. Typically, embryos that have reached the 6-8 cell stage are transferred three days after retrieval into the mothers uterus. The term embryo refers to the early stages of this development, after the zygote has divided at least once. This begins an 8-10 week embryonic process/cell divisions before a fetus is formed. Get this ‘doctor debunked’. I knew you would.

SCNT is not about human cloning. Its all about creating cells known as therapeutic cloning…not duplicating humans. Anything else is total spin. Reproductive cloning….dolly the sheep….IVR is kin to SCNT, the only difference is one is grown inside a womb after fertilization and the Missouri initiative says SCNT embryo never sees the light of fertilization, because the SCNT process starts the cells to divide. SCNT stem cells are made with the DNA from a patient’s own cell, like a skin cell, and a donated, unfertilized egg that has had its own nucleus removed. SCNT does not involve the fertilization of an egg by a sperm and its medical uses do not involve the implantation of a fertilized egg or anything else into a woman’s uterus.

According to the official text of the initiative.

Section 2: .

*(1) No person may clone or attempt to clone a human being.

*(2) No human blastocyst may be produced by fertilization solely for the purpose of stem cell research.

Ill end with this.

6. As used in this section, the following terms have the following meanings:

(1) “Blastocyst” means a small mass of cells that results from cell division, caused either by fertilization or somatic cell nuclear transfer, that has not been implanted in a uterus.

(2) “Clone or attempt to clone a human being” means to implant in a uterus or attempt to implant in a uterus anything other than the product of fertilization of an egg of a human female by a sperm of a human male for the purpose of initiating a pregnancy that could result in the creation of a human fetus, or the birth of a human being.

Have a great day!! i know i will and i bet noone responds with counterpoints. I bet i get attacked again. Bring it on tho….i always thought Repubs debate the issue not slam each other….RIGHT??

We hear so much about the diabetes epidemic, yet how many people know that adult stem-cell therapy has actually cured diabetes in mice? I am diabetic, as are my father and father-in-law, my children are at high-risk to become diabetic, and I am livid that we’re wasting our time on a wild goose-chase when we already have ethical ways to quickly convert adult stem cells into pretty much any kind of tissue we might want – without the risk of creating new cancers.

Embryonic stem cell research is not about finding cures for diseases; it’s about learning what makes life work, in the hopes that we can eventually micro-manage everything about life. We’re all going to die sometime – even if we transplant a freshly-grown new brain and download it with the memory from the old brain. Which is what this is all leading to – a cross between genetics, microchip technology, and robotics, leading to man-made eternal life.

Could you imagine what the world would be like if we had people living to 300 years? Would anyone ever retire? Would we want to have children during the last 200 years of our lives, or would we have exponential growth of over-100-year-old people and very, very few children at any given time?

Both ends of the pro-death argument want to serve and extend the “productive years of life” at the expense of the very young or very old. Do the young and old really have nothing valuable to contribute?

Human babies are about the most helpless babies in nature. Most animals can walk, find food, eat, manage excrement, etc within minutes or days after birth, but human babies need parents for a long time. Why do you think that is? Would life be better if we were just like amoebas – we divide and then voila! there’s another person equal to us in every way? Is there some higher good that comes from helplessness, dependence, and learning? Think about it.

I agree with you AJ; we are not qualified to do God’s job. Whenever we try second-guessing Him we end up in doo-doo over our heads.

My understanding is as long as the organism is not deemed to be a human being (which is impossible, scientifically) then the DNA or cell line might be patentable. But you cannot ‘own’ a human being. That is why the Stem Cell folks are salivating at the idea. The abortion lobby has kept the myth alive for this legal mistaken identity. The good news is the DNA testing used in every court in the land to identify an individual human being associated with a crime will also show the embryo is not part of the mother – they have different DNA. That will cause the courts to recognize the human being at all stages of its existence.

I have heard that embryonic stem cell lines can be patented. Do you know anything about this? It might explain why the snake oil pushers are exploiting victims like Fox so mercilessly: there’s a lot of money to be made exploiting a patent.