Nov 14 2006
Immigration Hardliners Threaten Moderates Again
The ‘Fence Only’ crowd, which helped bring about the Republican debacle, are at it again and threatening further damage to Reps if they don’t get their way. Just like Cleavon Little holding a gun to his own head in Blazing Saddles, they bring us this silliness:
Now that Democrats are in control on Capitol Hill, President Bush has expressed hopes of getting a bipartisan immigration bill. The only bipartisan bill that can get past a Democratic Congress is an amnesty bill, which can be a down payment on another Republican defeat in 2008.
If the people in the White House do not understand how outraged their supporters were at this year’s attempt to pass an amnesty bill for illegals — virtually guaranteeing that even more millions will come — then it is hard to know what message they got from the Republicans’ recent debacle at the polls.
What a bunch of BS. There are plenty of PENALTIES in the Comprehensive Immigration Bill for those who are working here illegally and who want to become sanctioned immigration workers. First there was the requirement to pay back taxes – which is not a minor penalty by a long shot. Since paying back the IRS includes interest, this is a burden very few could afford to do. Then there was the requirement to have a background check – which could lead to deportation if a criminal record was found. This would eliminate the hard core, violent criminals from the ‘white collar’ crime of improper paperwork. I was a fan of a registration fee, to offset the program costs, as well as tax on employers. So no free rides anywhere. Plus, no one involved would become an American instantaneously. Those who worked here could not apply any of that previous time towards citizenship – it was all to be nullified (another penalty).
But the “fence only crowd” are completely irrelevant, as is this threat. If they are threatening to do more damage in 2008 than they did in 2006 then count me out of the Republican party. I would rather work a comprehensive solution than listen to cries of retribution for not toeing the line. If these ‘pure cons’ want to create the Buchanan party – then fine, go ahead. The Reps in the House – who pushed this threat last cycle and alienated most of the ‘legal’ immigrants who can vote (for the obtuse, that makes these voters US citizens) – need to realize they have no power now. They are not going to be engaged in this debate in any serious manner. And temper tantrums like this are not going to fix that reality. They gambled and lost. It is over. The ‘Fence Only” crowd is out of power and just filled with empty, angry threats.
There are penalties for the illegal workers, so there is no amnesty. And if anyone is going to infer or say those of us who do not agree with these exaggerations are for law breaking, or somehow inferior in another way, I got a message: the independents select who wins elections. This cycle it wasn’t the ‘Fence Only’ crowd who were selected. The inferior ones are the ones who have no political power right now. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge….This is not “betrayal”, it is liberation.
Addendum: I want to make this point before I go into the comments and possibly get turned off to the Reps again, but here is the deal. (1) The ‘Fence Only’ crowd got their fence only passed. (2) They said comprehensive legislation had to come later. (3) It is later. (4) The ‘Fence Only’ crowd has no political power. I should not have jumped to item 4 alone without stepping through the other three points. But if the hard liners want to take their marbles home and be angry because there is INSUFFICIENT punishment for the crime of making a living – so be it. Sit home.
Here’s the article I saw referenced over at Bluecrab Boulevard
It’s deja vu all over again — illegal immigration has been the most heated topic on Stratosphere. And once again, I think almost all of us who supported the fence also support true comprehensive reform, but are being painted as extremists or hardliners. For security reasons and economic and for crime & healthcare related problems, we need to get control — manage — immigration. While it had some good provisions, the Senate bill that passed was definitely not comprehensive; it was very weak on border security and some other matters.
I believe AJ and some others have overstated and/or misunderstood the immigration issue effect on the election. As noted above, it was far down the list of priority issues. In the districts where it was important, it was evaluated with other issues — Iraq, perceived repub corruption and Foley cover-up scandal, and others (even though these were mostly empty, over-hyped “issues” trumpeted by the MSM). In fact, in many of the districts where the so-called repub hardliner lost, he/she was outflanked to the right by the dem opponent. If anything, it hurt the repubs because it turned off the base and was too little/too late for the indies, the vast majority who favor comprehensive reform, including a fence.
The Senate compromise bill, I believe, had a fence but not as much as the 700 miles. I think it was closer to 400 miles. So in exchange for 300 miles of fence you through the baby out with the bathwater? I just don’t get the all/nothing approach.
Here is how it works: You accept the Senate Compromose in 2006, then go to the polls. If the Dems win, they probably aren’t going to tinker with it because THEY were on board to begin with. If the Republicans win, you try to get incremental changes through to get it closer to what you really want … you add more miles of fence, you tighten up this or that requirement … in other words, if you can get close enough so that it is a real step forward, even if you have to take a couple of things you don’t want and even if it doesn’t get you all the way to where you want to go, you take it. You take it because the other side is on board too and has a stake in the agreement.
This notion that some legislation has to be both comprehensive AND perfect is just lunacy, in my opinion. The way politics works you are always going to have to get only part of what you want or take some parts you don’t want in order to get overall closer to your goal.
The overall goal in my opinion is to reduce the number of undocumented workers in the country. Right this very minute we have absolutely nothing that gets us closer to that goal. 700 miles of fence doesn’t do a thing to reduce the numbers already here that are “under the table”. It gives them no path to legitimize their employment. Simply punishing them for breaking a law isn’t going to accomplish anything either because in order to punish someone you must give someone access to due process and we don’t have the resources to process 10 million people though hearings or whatever.
What the far right wants sounds great until you actually consider putting it into practice and then you see that it costs a fortune and does nothing. Overall it would hurt our economy and our country more than just giving a blanket amnesty would though I don’t favor that either. I still favor the Senate compromise bill as the best first step. No, it isn’t a total solution, but it is a good first step with both parties on board.
Legislation is pointless unless you can control the border.
Once the border is controlled, I really don’t care how many Mexicans (or others) we allow in legally & whether they are here to work short term or forever. And it shouldn’t take very long to apply & then be accepted or rejected.
This is LAZY government – what we have come to expect from our public servants!!! Just another case where they just don’t address an issue when it’s small and manageable. Social Security is another one……………..
Always amusing…
So then we are helping immigrants by allowing them to work for employers who don’t pay minimum wage, don’t pay insurance and don’t pay attention to workplace safety rules. Now I get it.
Michael Barone and the rest of the RNC establishment still hasn’t gotten it. They were doing well until the pissed on the base and tried to use their position of power to ram through a violation of human rights. Now they are going to justify why it will be ok to piss on the base again in 2008 and I guess we will all be standing around here with dumb looks on our faces wondering why we lost again. Bully for us.
Pierre,
You are fantasizing again. That is what happens now. What comprehensive reform was designed to do was to empty the underground economy (there were employer sanctions in the mix) so that the workers payed taxes and were in the same workforce – no special exemptions from work force rules.
And it is that kind of 100% incorrect argument which doomed the “Fence Only” crowd. The governing base is more than the right wing. If all the right wing wants is their way or the highway – take the highway.
Macher,
You said, “Gigword seems to think Bush I favors illegal immigration and billionaires mostly benefit.â€
Your comment above is an over simplification of what I said above. I enjoy reading AJ’s blog. However, I believe that he has swallowed the Bush illegal immigration double talk line “hook, line and sinker“. I believe that Bush’s failure to prevent millions of illegal immigrants from crossing our borders after 9-11 is evidence that he welcomes the illegal Mexican immigrants and has been waiting for an opportunity to legalize all of the illegal Mexican immigrants. The penalties sop is a dodge with no economic cost to the former illegal immigrant. How do you expect the former “poor†illegal immigrant to pay anything out of his pay if he is working at a minimum wage rate? He will need welfare assistance for his wife and six children. Of course the Spanish speaking Moroccans Terrorist who have purchased Mexican identification documentation from crooked Mexican officials would be able to afford any so called penalty but they don’t need citizenship and are happy with the hear no evil see no evil system. The media is happy to promote the Bush immigration plan as logical until the Spanish speaking Moroccans have completed their suicide mission. Then the FBI will be able to connect the dots by reading the documentation that they leave behind in their apartment. Then the media will go into the “why didn’t the Bush Administration connect the dots†mode.
I believe that the billionaires that control America’s media favor the Democrats because the Democrat Party is currently staffed with demagogue politicians who are “on the take†or just plain crazy with a lust for political power. I believe that most of America’s billionaires want an America that contains a population that is Balkanized without a common sense of history because they own the television networks that propagandize in both Spanish and English. As long as they have a large enough population of “victims†that their demagogue politicians can rely on to be their voter base, they can rule America for the benefit of their multinational corporations.
Of course, not all billionaires need illegal immigrants for their “chicken plucking†business. However, the Tyson family, the Bush family and the Clinton family are all hugs and kisses. A very softball article that will give a little insight into the Tyson situation is at the web site as follows:
http://www.visalaw.com/01dec3/14dec301.html.
Of course Tyson beat the rap with the, “What the heck, the documents looked real and the Government took six months to tell us that the social security numbers didn’t match the names of the people that we hired†ploy. A “softball†report on the Tyson “skate free†verdict can be found at the website as follows:
http://www.visalaw.com/03mar4/10mar403.html
Additional background information is available at the website as follows:
http://are.berkeley.edu/APMP/pubs/i9news/profitshinge122101.html
Meatpackers’ profits hinge on pool of immigrant labor
by David Barboza 12/21/01 News Report — The New York Times
“Until 15 or 20 years ago, meatpacking plants in the United States were staffed by highly paid, unionized employees who earned about $18 an hour, adjusted for inflation. Today, the processing and packing plants are largely staffed by low-paid non- union workers from places like Mexico and Guatemala. Many of them start at $6 an hour.â€
Gigworld,
Bush agrees with me, not I with him. Also, illegal immigration was heading downward across our border and there have been more actions against employers under Bush. This whol canard about the rich is just an excuse not to face facts. We need to bring the working immigrants into a guest worker program so they are out in the open and background checked. Those with criminal records get deported. If we succeed the only ones who do not have US citizenship or a guestworker ID are criminal and terrorists. The reason this works best is it entices the underground immigrant population to step forward, leaving behind the critical problem of those who still wish to remain underground. If done right, our underground population will go from 12 million to less than a million. Then we have a chance of finding any terrorists. Rich people are so not an issue in this.
By the way, is that a liberal bobber I see hanging from your lips?
Just kidding.
I’m lovin’ this. Because some of us feel that when you enter this country you should respect the nation enough to do it legally, we are hardliners, bigots, and any other PC name you can throw at us. You say you want them out of the shadows. Right. All those employers, who pay substandard wages to illegals without providing any type of health care and allow the taxpayer to pick up the tab, are suddenly going to get a conscience and start paying a living wage. If the employers do that, then what is the purpose for all those substandard wage earners in the first place? Why not just hire legal citizens? If 50% of all sheet rockers are illegals, who makes up the other 50%? It is obvious that there are some Americans who will also do the jobs the pro-illegal immigration crowd claims no one will do.
So while you rally around the immigration flag, tell me one time the word ILLEGAL is ever used by the amnesty bunch.
How many times have you hear “lettuce will cost $5.00 a head”? Guess what, it already does. How many of you have watched your school taxes increase? If 25% of the students in your district are illegal, do you think you are not picking up the tab for that in higher taxes to provide them with an education? What about insurance premiums? How many times have we heard the left complain about the high cost of insurance and health care? Who do you think it reimbursing ParkLane Hospital in Dallas (where Kennedy was taken after he was shot) for the medical treatment they give to illegals? 70% of all babies born at Park Lane are illegals with no money and no way to be charged for that. You take your pick; $1000 more in taxes and health care premiums a year, or $5.00 f0r a head of lettuce.
The argument that we are a nation of immigrants is a catch phrase to push through legislation that says it is alright to ignore our sovereignty, to violate our laws. And all this talk about them going to the back of the line; so what? Who cares if my number for a ticket to a concert is 15,000 if I am already in the concert hall?
We are not a nation of immigrants. We are a nation of decendants of immigrants who came through Ellis Island and entered legally. They came here, much like the illegals of today, with very little. But they did not apply for welfare, public housing and free medical care. They learned to speak English without having to be pressured into it and they did not expect anything for free. They felt a responsibility to their host nation and they assimilated without having been forced to do so. They asked for nothing but to be able to live here and earn a living by becoming Americans. No free ride on the way to citizenry.
The purpose of immigration is to help the host nation, not the other way around.
We tried a social experiment in the 60’s called the Great Society. Now we have four generation welfare recipricants and nothing is any better, as a matter of fact it is worse.
We were promised when Reagan granted amnesty that it would put a stop to the illegal problem. It is worse.
Now some of you look to embark on another social experiment. It will not work. Already we have caved to ballots, telephone bills, canned goods, all in English and Spanish. Where is the demand to assimilate? Why should those who come here illegally learn English? We have made it too easy not to.
So say what you want about my being a bigot because I believe in the rule of law.
AJ, what are the penalties? Paying three out of five years worth of taxes? So what if they don’t? How long before LULAC, La Raza and the ACLU files a law suit saying that we are discriminating against the poorest amoung us? What will be the penalty for using an American citizens Social Security card falsly? Will they go to jail like you or I would? You have to pay into the SS fund for 40 quarters to be fully vested. Do you agree that the illegals who have been granted amnesty should only have to pay into the system for 10 quarters and that even their spouses who live in Mexico then become eligible?
Senate bill 2611 was a travesty and an insult to every hard working American citizen, both natural born and naturalized. And I haven’t even touched on the fact that the crime rate among illegals is higher than it is in our own citizens. So we can say that we are importing crime as well.
If you think making illegals legal is going to solve the problem, think again. It did not when Reagan did it, it will not now. And it will send a message to the rest of the world that we care so little about our nation that we are unwilling to make sure that those who come here abide by our laws.
Yes, the system needs changing. We need to enforce the laws already on the books. We need to start prosecuting employers who hire illegals. We need to fine them right out of business and if need be, back it up with jail time. We need to quit allowing the illegal population to use our hospitals and emergency rooms for anything other than life threatening illenesses. We need to make sure that students in our schools have a legal right to an education and the same way that Mexico will not allow a student into their school system unless they speak Spanish, we need to not provide English as a second language classes for those who have no right to be here. And no social benefits; no food stamps, no public housing. If you want to come here to work, great, but do it legally and respect our laws.
But there are those of you who do not agree with me. So 30 years from now, when we have a whole new class of near slave labor, you will wonder what the hell happened.
The wall will not be built. At least no under this new Congress. And all those new Border Patrol agents? We won’t get them since we have started sending BP agents to prison for doing their jobs.
So while you say that you are for legalization without the requirement that they follow the law remember these few facts:
Mexico imprisons their illegal immigrants and then deports them. Mexico will not allow a English only speaking student into their schools. Mexico does not allow an immigrant, legal or otherwise to hold office or become a clergyman, it is a crime, punishable by jail time, for any foreigner to protest march in Mexico, and in order to register to vote in Mexico, you must provide your thumb print which is again taken every time you vote. Try to get a job in Mexico and see what hoops you have to jump through and how much it costs you.
And while you contemplate all that, ask yourself, where do the illegals get the $3-12,000.00 they pay cayotes to smuggle them into the U.S.?
That is what happens now. What comprehensive reform was designed to do was to empty the underground economy (there were employer sanctions in the mix) so that the workers payed taxes and were in the same workforce – no special exemptions from work force rules.
Many of these “Underground Workers” work under the table. So, how in the world do you determine what their back taxes would be? Most working for Sub Contractors in the Construction Industry ARE payed Cash. Been highly talked about both on radio here and on WSB out of Atlanta. Most Contractors who DON’T hire Illegals, are now out of business. They just could not give competitive bids while trying to compete with contractors who hire Illegals. Was a big issue with local host on both stations.
And it is that kind of 100% incorrect argument which doomed the “Fence Only†crowd. The governing base is more than the right wing. If all the right wing wants is their way or the highway – take the highway.
Fence First, is the proper defenition. And not 700 miles, 2,000 would be what I wanted. And the reasons were simple. Of those deported, most just keep coming back to commit more crimes. The only logical solution was a fence or wall. Go to
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org
look at the cases of actual americans killed by Illegals. The vast majority have long criminal records, and have been deported previously. So, it would seem, deportation with out a way of keeping them out, is just a waste of time. I challenge you, go to that web site. See how far down the list on the right side of the page you can read before you get sick to your stomach. Print it out, it’s 14 pages if you just copy and paste the victims. I read them all, but I had to stop and walk away several times.
I can tell you in N.C. the only Republican that was tough on immigation who lost was Charles Taylor. And he lost because of his Earmarks and Pork Spending.
Sue Myrick- #1 issue, Illegal Aliens won
Walter Jones- #1 issue, Illegal Aliens, not only won, got 69% of the vote
Patrick Mc Henry- #1 issue, Illegal Aliens, won
Robyn Hayes, my congressman, won, narrowly. His big issue Illegal Aliens. His big liability PORK! he won by 449 votes. I held my nose and voted for him. Many did not. He loves spending money and many here had had it with him.
Retire05,
Thanks for making my point – again. We both agree the immigrants should follow the law. Your attitude is what is wrong. I think they should pay back taxes and a registration fee and be crime free – that is their punishment. You want more. Stop acting like those who disagree with your views want laws broken. It is 100% wrong and only acts as a way for you to avoid dealing with the fact your views are now politically irrelevant.
The comprehensive bill made the penalties on employers much harsher. Everything you listed is what we ended up with from the Fence Only crowds abysmal stances. Your describing the current result, not what the comprehensive bill tries to achieve.
Face it, it is the Fence Only crowd who gave us what you described. We could have so much more. It is their fault – not the fault of those of us who want a comprehensive solution. We have not had our say yet. But now we will.
SteveWS,
Your exccuses to do nothing are why the Fence Only crowd is now irrelevant. There are ways to determine a fair estimate of wages even without records. Stop pretending you care? You don’t. If you put half your energy into making a compromise as you do in rationalizing the debacle (a) we would have comprehenisve immigration reform and (b) we would have Rep Congress. Really, you can come up with endless excuses not to do something. There is no special gift or trick in that.
It is making things happen that is hard and takes talent. Stopping things from happening is easy. I am not impressed.
AJ,
You did a great job of rebutting my points. I’m kidding!
People who enter the county Illegal, by definition, are not Immigrants, they are Aliens.
I think it’s time, once again, to just give up on you on this topic.
I never saw a need for the comprehensive bill. All we needed was to enforce the laws on the books now, and build a wall to keep more from comming, and keep those we do deport from comming back.
I’m sure you wont read from the web site I mentioned either.
Had you bothered to listen to different voices on the radio, both localy and nationaly, and listened to those who are competing against those who hire Aliens under the table, you’d have a different perspective, I think. Enjoy your day.
AJ,
I would describe myself as a conservative Jeffersonian Democrat. I am proud of my Hispanic heritage. My grandmother’s Spanish ancestry is well documented by the Catholic Church in Saint Augustine, Florida. The Catholic Church in Spain also records my Spanish ancestors prior settling in Florida. The Spanish records have been traced so far to the 1500s. My Hispanic Grandmother was the first to marry a Protestant. My Protestant ancestry goes back to the settlement of Pennsylvania and then to the Quakers in England. However, I would say that growing up in Florida as the Great Grandson of a Hispanic Confederate Officer has caused me to appreciate the views of Thomas Jefferson more than those of Alexander Hamilton. Have you read any of the articles that I referenced in my last comment?
SteveWS,
You keep missing the point. You are the one not listening. I hear and disagree. No one wants them paid under the table. The truth is in the results. The Reps accomplished NOTHING. The comprehensive Bill takes a myriad of steps to end the underground economy. So let me make it clear as I can. Reps = nothing. Bush = making progress. I don’t need to see anymore marginal issues to understand the bottom line. The Fence Only crowd lost and lost the Congress. Done deal.
Unlike you and others, I want progress – not some minority’s view of purity. I ain’t into purity. I am into individual freedoms. I am for rewarding good behavior and reasonable punishments for mistakes and errors. Hint, hint – Rep purity is a false god. I am an independent. Without folks like us the reps remain a minority.
AJ, you can spin it as the “fence only” crowd but the truth is that we on the “fence only” side realize that the fence was just the first step in protecting our sovereignty. Not the only step. Name me one anti-illegal immigrant politician that stated they only wanted a fence. Just one.
Now I ask you, if we bring all these people “out of the shadows” and start paying them normal, not substandard, wages, what will be the advantage to employers in hiring illegals? None if they have to pay them the same as an American worker. That seems to be a fact you chose to ignore. And as another poster asked, how do you determine how much a worker has been paid when there is no record of their salary since they are paid under the table? And is it fair to allow them to pay only two of five years worth of back taxes? Think you could get by with that?
How many employers were fined for hiring illegals in 2005? Three. What good did that do? And what about the theft of someone else’s Social Security number? How would you deal with that?
There is no point in discussing this with you. You think that we should take care of people that their own nation won’t take care of. While Vincente Fox outsources his poverty, we out source high tech jobs. Name me one doctor, professor or lawyer who has sneaked across our borders. And tell me, where do these people get the money to pay a cayote if they were not working in Mexico? The Pew Hispanic Research Center determined that 80% of the illegals here had jobs they left in Mexico. Is Pew lying?
I find it odd that you would back changing our laws while we allow Mexico their strick enforcement of illegal immigration into their nation.
Why bother having a border?
AJ,
You said, “Bush agrees with me, not I with him.†Did you write the “economic penalties for six dollar an hour immigrant workers†comprehensive immigration plan? If you wrote that plan, then you must be a Tyson Foods employee.
Please explain how a formerly illegal immigrant who is only being paid six dollars an hour by Tyson Foods is supposed to pay an economic penalty for some number of the years that he has worked in this country. If he has a wife and kids who were living in Mexico while he was working in the US, will they ever be allowed to live in the US? If they have already been living in the US with him, how will he be able to pay an economic penalty for them to become citizens? The economic penalty that you recommend might be feasible for an illegal high tech worker who has been working for twenty dollars an hour (for a job with normal wage of sixty dollars an hour) but someone supporting a family on six dollars an hour already needs financial assistance from the government in order to live. If you cut his Tyson Food six dollar an hour job’s take home pay with economic penalties he can’t survive. Your scheme for Tyson Food to pay him greater wages so he can still survive in the US does not work because Tyson Food says that they will have to close their US plants and move their meat packing business to Mexico if they have to pay more than they are currently paying.
Don’t you remember Hillary’s futures trading winning days and Tyson Foods loosing days that occurred at the same stockbroker’s office? It is amazing how she would be better able to predict the cattle market better than Tyson Foods. Were you her cattle futures consultant or were you Tyson Foods cattle futures consultant on those days? Alternatively, were you the consultant and stock broker for both sides of the deal on those days?
Retire05, you are correct sir! I sometime feel like the lone ranger here!
He (AJ) can’t come to grips with the Reps. loosing because the spent way too much, attached 10,000 earmarks to bills, The medias one side portrail of corruption, and their one sided view of Iraq. Americans want the border secure. not 300 miles of fencing, not 700 miles, but entirely. AJ seems to think people like myself who want to plug the hole first, then deal with the stagering problem of those here now after that as the reason why the Reps. lost.
It’s a disconnect I can not reconnect. I’ve tried.
The fence is merely an offshoot of the larger debate. Are you for unlimited immigration or against it? If you are for unlimited immigration you can forget about conservatives ever coming to power as immigrants vote overwhelmingly for the Left. At the rates immigrants are pouring into this country, the Republicans will either have to ape the dems’ policies or they will be reduced to insignificance in 20 yrs. Maybe less.
Crosspatch you are right in one thing as I pointed out. Nobody is changing their mind on this. In your comment above I think you have the majority and minority backwards, maybe, maybe not. Anyhow you think the Pres would sign a bill to repeal the fence law that His party pass in favor of signing one the other side wants. Talking about rebellion.