Dec 08 2006
Order Of Contamination
Major Update: Bumping this to the top. As I predicted if this was a smuggling ring exposed by and accidental (and severe) contamination event the Russians involved would start to get seriously ill. We can now add Lugovoi to the list of those with a heavy dose of Polonium. It would seem he and Kuvton were close enough to the event that killed Litvinenko to get a serious contamination themselves. Did they get it at the event or from seeing Litvinenko right after the event. In any case it makes three seriously poisoned people and I would bet more will succumb soon. Now also should consider the scenario were there was more Polonium than just what exposed these people. Did it travel from the hotels and the multiple rooms to points elsewhere? Or was it combined into a single larger stash that is sitting someplace and possibly still contaminating people. This is the problem with this kind of substance – you sort of have to know the trail to detect the traces. So will Berezovsky or someone else show signs of poisoning to further trace the trail? Will someone at the security firms visited by Litvinenko or Lugovoi succumb? More later.
Update: It seems Kuvton is gravely ill and will easily become the second most contaminated victim of this incident. Now the police will need to retrace all his steps on Nov 1 as well. I think they will find he and Litvinenko at the Millenium Hotel sometime prior to the Scaramella meeting. – end update
I am taking a stab at the degree of contamination found to date on people and at locations to give some idea of the distance of a person or place from what I call ground zero, which is where Litvinenko may have been at the center of an accident handling the Polonium. First the human list from worst to least:
(1) Litvinenko with 50-100 times the lethal dose
(2) Kovtun who took ill and could be anywhere from 10-20 times the lethal dose (comparing him to Litvinenko and Scaramella)
(3) Lugovoi has taken ill and seems to be only slighty less contaminated the Kovtun
(4) Scaramella with 5 times the lethal dose, now out of hospital
(5) Marina Litvinenko – not hospitalized like Scaramella, possibly less than a lethal dose
(6) Millenium Bar Staff
This story notes the Millenium bar staff were many 1,000th’s the level found in Litvinenko. If he had 50 times the lethal dose, then they have s than 5% of a lethal dose.
Totally independentally we have contaminated sites in order of a completely “guestimated” contamination level based on how long they were shutdown (or are still shutdown)
(1) Millenium Hotel Room (Oct 30-Nov 3 Period)
(2) Millenium Hotel Bar
(3) Litvinenko Home
(4) Zakayev Car
(5) Sheraton Hotel Room (Oct 25-28 Period)
(6) Sushi Bar
(7) Berezovsky’s office
(8) Parkes Hotel in Knightsbridge (Oct 16-18 Period)
(9) 25 Grosvenor Street
(10) 58 Grosvenor Street
(11) RISC Management on Cavendish Place
(12) 3 2 Airplanes
(13) British Embassy
(14) Arsenal Stadium
These are just my estimates but they are helpful in determining who may bave been contaminated when. For example, I believe Kovtun and Litvinenko are the two prime vectors who were present at the incident in the Hotel room at the Millenium Hotel which appears to be a large, accidental contamination. They in turn trailed Polonium and infected secondary people like Scaramella and possibly Lugovoi. As time passed from the initial incident (which had to happen prior to the meeting with Scaramella) then potency of the trail detoriated. That is why the Millenium Bar staff and Litvinenko’s wife have fractions of a lethal dose and Scaramella as a 5 times a lethal dose.
For the record, I cannot see how all 7 bar staff at the Millenium Hotel Bar could have sniffed ‘vapours’ from Litvinenko’s drink. That seems a bit far fetched that each and every nose made it over his beer. But with Litvinenko, Kovtun and probably Lugovoi all trailing Polonium 210 then there is a more likely scenario for the contamination. I am wondering if these folks all worked behind the bar or serving on the floor (as opposed to in the back). Probably so.
Update: Well that question was answered fast.
Seven workers at a London hotel visited by ex-spy Alexander Litvinenko on the day he was poisoned have tested positive for low levels of radiation.
The Health Protection Agency said the staff who were working at the Pine Bar at the Millennium Hotel in Grosvenor Square on November 1 “appear to have been exposed to low levels of polonium-210”.
A statement said: “There is no health risk in the short term and in the long term the risk is judged to be very small on the basis of initial tests.”
The HPA said it is also testing staff who were working at the bar on October 31 and November 2.
Note they were exposed to low levels. If everyone at the bar was exposed to low levels as well then the poisoning event could not have taken place at the Millenium Bar (which I would wager is what we will find to be the case).
London Hotel Drinkers Called For Tests In Litvinenko Case
05:32 PM, December 8th 2006
by News Staff
British health authorities were Friday contacting up to 200 guests at a London hotel bar to undergo radiation tests following the contamination of seven bar staff in connection with the Litvinenko poisoning.
The Health Protection Agency (HPA) said customers who visited the Pine Bar in London’s Millenium Hotel between October 31 and November 2 should contact the health authorities.
http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_4890–London-Hotel-Drinkers-Called-For-Tests-In-Litvinenko-Case.html
CP I know they checked Italy where Scaramella went I think Nov. 2 and there was no contamination in any of his offices etc.
Test.
Will try to post this once again.
London Hotel Drinkers Called For Tests In Litvinenko Case
05:32 PM, December 8th 2006
by News Staff
British health authorities were Friday contacting up to 200 guests at a London hotel bar to undergo radiation tests following the contamination of seven bar staff in connection with the Litvinenko poisoning.
The Health Protection Agency (HPA) said customers who visited the Pine Bar in London’s Millenium Hotel between October 31 and November 2 should contact the health authorities.
[More here: http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_4890–London-Hotel-Drinkers-Called-For-Tests-In-Litvinenko-Case.html ]
Yeah, ’cause I don’t think Scaramella was contaminated until later. Much later. How is it he turns up with so much contamination in his body but no trail of contamination around him while every other person around Litvinenko not only is contaminated but is also trailing the stuff everywhere.
Also, everyone else involved has now developed symptoms, Scaramella isn’t. Bet he might develop some in another 4 weeks or so, though.
London Hotel Drinkers Called For Tests In Litvinenko Case
http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_4890–London-Hotel-Drinkers-Called-For-Tests-In-Litvinenko-Case.html
British health authorities were Friday contacting up to 200 guests at a London hotel bar to undergo radiation tests following the contamination of seven bar staff in connection with the Litvinenko poisoning.
The Health Protection Agency (HPA) said customers who visited the Pine Bar in London’s Millenium Hotel between October 31 and November 2 should contact the health authorities.
http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_4890–London-Hotel-Drinkers-Called-For-Tests-In-Litvinenko-Case.html
CP,
I really doubt Litvinenko was sacrificed. Here is why. Let’s assume Berezovsky is the funding mastermind. He hires Lugovoi to coordinate the smuggling. Neither one want to be anywhere near the stuff in transit. Once it gets into the UK Lugovoi oversees pulling it together or dividing it up at the hotels. Litvinenko is used as the eyes and ears and mouth for Berezovsky so Boris has deniability – never even in proximity to the action. Litvinenko worked with the security firms for protection at the hotel and possible during transit (if not transit itself). All the security firms know is they are transporting personal property for a rich person (and getting well paid I assume).
Let’s assume one of the containers has a problem in flight (the overhead contaminated on one of the planes could be a sign of the air pressure causing a seal failure) and that is taken to the Millenium Hotel where the container is shown to Litvinenko who doesn’t realize the seal is broken. He gets some on his fingers (the light switch in the room) and later ingests it while eating at the Sushi Bar (never lick your fingers!).
I think all of them hoped to survive once it was learned they had had an accident. Litvinenko held off is Putin claims until he died – not before hand. He did not want to have to use the diversion, he wanted to get well but not draw attention to the suspicious events. Recall the PR firm was brought in by Berezovsky after the Thallium was eliminated and the Polonium showed up in the urine tests. That was right at the end – right when he penned his Putin screed.
There are signs that everyone kept trying to ride this out, get through without raising red flags. But when that time passed they made sure they were the first to go to the media. Goldfarb has been out there spinning on every new event. Berezovsky’s office is contaminated and Goldfarb says Litvinenko was sweating (though it was too soon after he was poisoned for the material to travel through his body and there has only been signs in urine). Lugovoi is deemed the killer and Goldfarb comes out and says that is doubtful – vouches for the man!
The cover ups and accusations are always REACTIVE. Why didn’t Litvinenko charge Putin himself? He had three weeks and supposedly discussed Scaramella and Lugovoi (when Goldfarb was pointing at Lugovoi) and discussing his conversion to Islam. Why not blame Putin then? It all smells of trying to stay ahead of the story.
Have been unable to post.
“British health authorities were Friday contacting up to 200 guests at a London hotel bar to undergo radiation tests following the contamination of seven bar staff in connection with the Litvinenko poisoning. ”
Cannot seem to post link, but found through Google News.
London Hotel Drinkers Called For Tests In Litvinenko Case
http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_4890–London-Hotel-Drinkers-Called-For-Tests-In-Litvinenko-Case.html
AJ
“My concern is the FBI are involved to help trace where the remaining PO-210 went.”
That is precisely what I am thinking. Enlightened makes a good point, namely that since a potential WMD was used, whether in an assassination or terrorist plot, our government would want to be involved. That being said, what I find significant is not simply the involvement of the FBI, but rather its involvement when considered along side with its stated purpose. Also when you look at the director of this division you will find that he has a history with the DOJ, intelligence, and local law enforcement. But I must realize that Enlightened’s answer is possible and satisfies my question.
wow a Hamburg connection (remember Atta?) –
Hamburg- Police in the northern German city of Hamburg were investigation the local home of a Russian businessman in connection to the case of Alexander Litvinenko, who died in November of a mysterious radioactive poisoning attack, the online editor of Die Welt reported Friday. According to the report, the businessman was brought to a Moscow hospital due to high radiation levels.
Investigators have not excluded the possibility that the attack on former Russian spy Litvinenko may have been prepared in Hamburg.
Hamburg police would give no comme
Raw News
The latest reports from Britain are that the authorities believe the Litvinenko death cocktail was mixed up in one of the rooms in the hotel, that the assassin tried to use it at the suchi bar, failed, and used it at the bar.
How did the bartenders get contaminated. In most bars I’ve been to, it;s the bartenders who wash the glasses in the bar sink. If it was on a glass or cup or glasses or cups, that might explain it..Oh, and if you ever saw how lightly the wash up usually is, you’d recognize it more as a rinse and swipe, which might explain why the authorities have asked all patrons to be tested.
mariposa,
“British health authorities were Friday contacting up to 200 guests at a London hotel bar to undergo radiation tests following the contamination of seven bar staff in connection with the Litvinenko poisoning.”
Man! Whether this was an assassination or terror plot, the little cogs in the minds of the jihadis must be turing as they realize what this stuff can due in terms of terror. I do hope we are on top of the non-proliferation enforcement.
So per the Hamburg article we now have ANOTHER unnamed Russian from Hamburg contaminated and he’s in Moscow – no wonder they didn’t rush to interview Luguvoi – they may have been caught up with this new development
Could be, AJ, but I smell something really, really fishy surrounding Scaramella. He is the one piece in all of this that doesn’t make sense to me. If the poisoning was at the hotel, how did Scaramella get so much in him yet leave no trail of contamination anywhere. If the poisoning was at the sushi bar, then why is there so much at the hotel bar.
Scaramella showing up poisoned so long after the fact yet not being contaminated seems really, really odd to me. Unless his place in Italy was contaminated and that is what the “illegal dumping” charge is all about there.
CP,
Scaramella testified early on Litvinenko had to meet some business associates early on and therefore could not meet him until 3:00 PM. There are eyewitness accounts to noonish meeting between Litvinenko and the Russians. My guess is there were two meetings that day. One before the Scaramella meeting and one later in the day. The ring admitted to the evening meeting because that was part of their cover story.
Scaramella’s levels of dosage make sense if he is getting some contamination from Litvinenko (the classic european hug-meeting). The Millenium Bar had two or three vectors there (Litvinenko, Kovtun and Lugovoi). With three people giving off contamination there was more contamination. Plus they were in a busy bar at happy hour right before a big game, whereas Scaramella and Litvinenko were in the lower level of an empty restaurant (3:00 PM – remember).
The problem happened in the hotel room at the earlier meeting and Scaramella was just another unfortunate coincidence.
We have contamination going all the way back to October 16. Were these characters travelling back and forth for longer than that? Or did they screw up early in their operations? The further back you go in time the harder it will be to find contamination because of the short half-life.
I’m so sorry for all the repeat posts on this thread. For some reason, they weren’t showing up at all earlier as I tried to post them.
Look at the degree of contamination of these three men:
1. Litvenko – 100x fatal dose. He must have been holding container when it was opened and got the most.
2. Kovtun – deathly ill dose unknown but he evidently is the next sickest.
3. Lugovoi – insists he is doing fine but is in hospital and talks through lawyers and interrogation meeting was postponed. Is he deathly ill but not as ill as Kovtun?
4. Scaramella – says he has 5x fatal dose but doctors don’t think so and he is released. Release with 5x fatal dose?
The accident had to have happened between 12:00 and 3:00 at one of the rooms at the Millenium hotel otherwise Scaramella would not have been contaminated. Litvinenko was not contaminated before 12:00 when he bought a newspaper. This timeframe has always been crucial from the beginning.
The next question I have is – How is Solenko doing?
As AJ says the Millenium bar was contaminated with these three men there. It would be extremely surprising if it were not. Remember these men had been moving all around London spreading polonium. It would have been much worse if the accident had just happened shortly before the 4:30 meeting at the bar. This cup episode sounds like the waitress saying she had a rash on her legs when Litvinenko and Scaramella were at the sushi bar. Power of suggestion.