Dec 13 2006
New Clues Emerge In Litvinenko Incident
Two new clues have emerged in the puzzle that is the Litvinenko incident. There are now some vague reports of another Russian of interest associated with Kovtun and his trip to Hamburg from Moscow in October (before Litvinenko fell ill):
An unnamed Russian businessman who flew from Moscow to Hamburg on October 28 with Mr Kovtun is also being sought. Police believe this flight was used to transport polonium-210 into Europe.
There is also another hotel that has tested positive for Polonium-210, which again bolsters the idea this was some sort of large smuggling ring verses some targeted assassination:
In addition, a Swedish couple that had stayed at the Shaftesbury Hotel near Picadilly were Tuesday tested at the oncology unit at Lund University Hospital in southern Sweden, the Stockholm daily Expressen reported.
The hotel room the couple had stayed in apparently had traces of polonium.
Seems like an awefully large group of people for an assassination someone wanted to look like an accident.
Also today, Dmitry Kovtun speaks out and claims Litvinenko was the one who contaminated him, and that it happened on Oct 16-18. This is possible and plausible since Polonium 210 was found at hotels associated with Lugovoi’s visit to London and meetings with Litvinenko. We also have, someplace back in my posts on this subject, I believe Lugovoi’s statement that Litvinenko told him he had poisoned himself before Nov 1st. While it is hard to put much stock in Lugovoi’s word by itself, I find it worth considering since he seems to be a cooperating witness, possibly under a plea agreement.
Update: Both Lugovoi and Kovtun are pointing to Oct 16-18th as the logical (as we all know) first time for Polonium 210 contamination for Litvinenko:
Andrei Lugovoi, a security agent-turned-businessman who met with Litvinenko at a London hotel on Nov. 1, the day Litvinenko suspected he was poisoned, said in an interview with the Moskovsky Komsomolets tabloid that he and Litvinenko were poisoned on Oct. 16.
“Who told you that the contamination took place on Nov. 1? It took place much earlier, on Oct. 16,” Lugovoi was quoted as saying by the paper. Lugovoi is himself undergoing radiation checks in a Moscow clinic.
Litvinenko, 43, a former Russian agent and a Kremlin critic, died Nov. 23 of poisoning from polonium-210.
Lugovoi supported his claim by saying that he and Litvinenko visited a London-based security firm where traces of polonium were later found only in mid-October, but did not go there on Nov. 1, meaning that the contamination couldn’t have taken place on that day.
While Lugovoi is being a bit disingenuous with this logic due to the massive radiation signatures at the Millenium Hotel Room and bar, he is being more accurate than the reporting coming out of the UK media – which has been obsessed with the assassination theory. It should be noted though, that Litvinenko’s final dosage could have been the result of a number of contacts with Polonium-210 which was not being handled properly. He could have been building up his poison levels over many weeks, and received a final larger dose on Nov 1. But I am only pointing this out to show there are lots of reasonable scenarios based on what is known to date. The media has jumped the gun – like usual.
Can you give me a link to that report? The only thing I have heard is Litvinenko claiming he was contaminated by Litvinenko on the 16th. when they both met at a location that has tested positive for contamination. But that would not explain his contamination in Hamburg two weeks later. One would assume he had changed clothes by then.
Lugovoi showed up contaminated … hotel room, meeting place, and airplane on the trip of the 16th to London.
OOPS, ment … would not explain Kotvun’s contamination in Hamburg.
Kovtun, even … sheesh … too many names.
No c/p I cannot. It would take too much time to scroll thru all these threads, but it was in the first few days–and it was the Timesonline.
So someone attempts to poison Litvinenko in London and Kovtun’s house, office, mother in law’s house, two cars, and a plane end up contaminated? And I haven’t even started on the Lugovoi trail which includes the trip of the 25th as well, with one plane in one direction being contaminated (from Moscow, I believe) but not in the other direction. I would suspect the contamination pattern would be opposite of Lugovoi were contaminated in any poisoning attempt on that trip. And Kovtun didn’t attend that trip but was already contaminated inside and out before the November 1 trip.
Russia-Brought to you by the letters K G B:
“Four out of five political leaders and state administrators in Russia either have been or still are members of the security services, a study suggests. The unprecedented research implies a huge expansion of KGB-FSB influence in politics and business in recent years. Many of the officials concerned have been appointed under President Vladimir Putin – himself a former spy chief. This has led many liberal commentators to claim their influence is growing unchecked, and threatening democracy”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6177531.stm
All the govt and all the major businesses..
Litvinenk mentioned on the meeting of the 16th to Lugovoi that he thought he had been poisoned (already). The security company where they met was in fact contaminated. Kovtun was apparently also at that meeting at the security company. Kovtun was not in London on the trip of the 25th so by the time he shows up in Germany, it would have been two weeks after his last trip to London yet he is contaminated inside and out in Germany.
Lugovoi appears in London on the 25th, again contaminated hotel room, contaminated meeting location.
Lugovoi returns a few days later, again contamination of the hotel rooms and meeting locations and another airliner.
Kovtun goes to Hamburg and is a walking polonium duster. Leaves Hamburg free of contamination. Arrives London and is contaminated again there, apparently.
I have not seen anything coming from British authorities saying they suspect an earlier poisoning. I have seen where Litvinenko claims at the sushi bar on the 16th of “poisoning himself” a few days earlier and having been sick.
Well, I;m not searching for hours for it, but I do recall an early Times article where SY speculated that the reason there was so much PO about was that there had been an earlier unsuccessful attempt to kill Litvinenko.
Litvinenkos death in this manner does not help Putin but would serve the interests of Boris. If Putin wanted to kill Litvinenko there could have been a very unfortunate car accident or something. Litvinenko took public transportation for crying out loud. He could have been killed in any number of ways. He wasn’t in any high security environment. He took the bus, walked the streets, ate in crowded places. There were a bazillion other, better ways to bump him off. This is way too melodramatic.
Ok – This is really going out on a limb – but: What if the PO 210 was transported in a poison ring?
Car Seat – Waist area – Pocket – Hand in pocket
Couch – Waist area – Pocket – Hand in pocket
Pillow – Head area – Hand cradling head
Document – Hand area – Hand signing doc
There are rings like that still out there – Hee Hee – some are advertising as a way to “ hide your Viaga pillâ€.
http://gryphonsmoon.com/poison+rings.page
This is totally rumor, but what if:
Scroll down the link to the “Polonium” post.
Rumors in the UK – saying the PO 210 is molded into : ring-shapes.
http://www.woolamaloo.org.uk/
Just out of curiousity – any of the Smugglers wear flamboyent rings? Any CCTV captures? I’ve seen wedding bands only.
It’s very easy for a jeweler to make a custom made ring. Might cost a bit – but if we keep stating a – to this point – unbought, multi million dollar product – what’s a few bucks on a custom ring.
Well Clarice I think we now know why the UK thought of Thallium:
RUSSIAN KGB POISONING VICTIM #5. Nicolai Khokhlov, KGB agent who defected to the west. He was poisoned in London by the KGB who put radioactive thallium in a cup of his coffee. Khokhlov now lives in San Bernadino, California.
KGB POISONED NICOLAI KHOKHLOV EARLIER IN LONDON WITH RADIOACTIVE THALLIUM
Khokhlov had also published a book critical of the Soviet Union.
-Times of London 1 Dec 2006
Funny how similar these crimes are. Except the Thallium did not work. So it looks like they went for something more toxic.
Sigh, ok here goes (I wrote this earlier but got delayed):
“This trail disappears and reappears. Someone takes a shower, removes the contamination, then contacts the material again and is contaminated.” This could very easily occur if, say, a jacket was contaminated, maybe as a result of an earlier hot handshake (you’re entirely wrong about handshakes by the way, confusing poisoning with surface contamination I think). Unless a person knows they’ve been contaminated most anything they touch subsequently would be contaminated – in fact all the reporting seems to suggest this sort of pattern, rather than “massive” or “severe” spills (and all the other expansive and misleading elaborations to fit the story to Po smuggling).
“They have come to the conclusion that the contamination was from contact with the material itself and suspect smuggling the stuff is involved.” In my opinion this isn’t consistant with the reporting about the Germans, one quote did float the idea that the material was in the car from the airport, but subsequently the contamination in the house was negligible (which is inconsistant with large amounts of Po being trundled about). That “Germany-smuggling suspicion” report is also sort of wobbly isn’t it?
“How does a leaking assassin in London contaminate Kovtun’s home and office? You can’t “catch†polonium poisoning from sitting next to someone who is poisoned or shaking their hand or giving them a hug.” As I mentioned above it is entirely wrong to say that contamination can’t occur by surface transfer (off a hand or faucet or door knob), this is by far the most likely way for most of the contamination that has been reported to have occurred. I’ll again say that you’re confusing poisoning and superficial contamination, other than Sasha I’m not sure if anyone has actually been poisoned with Po – most likely everyone other than Sasha has exactly the sort of superficial contamination that you dismiss.
“We have too many hotels, too many hotel rooms, too many homes, too many airplanes, too many cars … for it to be contamination by a leaky assassin. ” Again you seem to have no concept of how easy it is for radioactive contamination to spread when people are not aware than they are contaminated, in fact your postion resembles what a person would think if they were unaware of how easily the Po could be spread… think of ink on your hand, clothes, which never dries and is detecible in vanishing quantities – spread in increasingly dilute amounts far and wide. All these places aren’t dangerous and all these people aren’t poisoned or smugglers, there’s just these extremely small amounts of Po that aren’t so hard to detect if you know to look for them.
“So before November 1 he appears already contaminated inside and out.” My opinion still is that this is just surface contamination, the quote is misleading due to the reporter, the official, or just through tramslation. I’m not sure anyone has been poisoned, internally and seriously (traces don’t “count”, heh a little pun there), other than Sasha.
Ok, I actually have a job that I have been neglecting for a couple of days, so I will leave with this:
I think Sasha was poisoned by a woman. Wearing a poison ring. Explains spillage here and there. And it would not poison her if it spilled on her hand.
I think the woman is the same woman that was with 2 men trailing Anna before she was murdered in her hallway.
I think those 3 are part of a team. They know their target, they shadow them for a bit, then they strike.
I think the hit team has a list.
A thought:
Lugovoi and Kovtun, we know, were working together. They are too close to be working at cross purposes. Let’s assume they were responsible for (a) the “assassination,” or (b) the smuggling of polonium.
Ostensibly they are linked to Berezovsky, a “sworn enemy” of Putin. But they are both living comfortably in Russia, despite the fact that they had set up a major security apparatus last week as evidenced by the Der Spiegel interview, and that they seemed happy to enter the hospital to treat their possible exposure to the poison.
Does it make sense that they were working against Russia and Putin? Would not Putin know of their liaisons with Berezovsky, and monitor their interactions? I doubt therefore that the two working with Berezovsky with the intention of fostering some sort of coup attempt with a dirty or nuclear bomb.
It seems to me they were working with Putin’s explicit or tacit approval. I cannot see how the two were working on behalf of the Chechnens, in some sort of plot against the Russian government.
Did Putin and Berezovsky join forces for some reason? Alternatively the two mules could have been double agents, seemingly working for Berezovsky but actually working for the Russian government.
I wonder if Berezovsky is contaminated. I wonder if Putin were actually smuggling polonium into the UK for his own purposes.
Enlightened I think it’s a good idea to take a few days off. There is no evidence whatsoever to support your conclusion.
“Looking at the pattern, timing, and distrubution of the contamination, I see nothing consistant with an assassin. How does a leaking assassin in London contaminate Kovtun’s home and office? Youi can’t “catch†polonium poisoning from sitting next to someone who is poisoned or shaking their hand or giving them a hug. You can’t be free from contamination on a flight to Mosocow and suddenly contaminate your house unless you are handling the material there. We have too many hotels, too many hotel rooms, too many homes, too many airplanes, too many cars … for it to be contamination by a leaky assassin. ” –Crosspatch
Crosspatch I completely agree. I am willing to dismiss a simple assassination completely, and pursue the smuggling angle.
I cannot for the life of me grasp who was on the receiving end. Forget about the logistics, given that the Russians seemed to be doing the transporting, who was the end consumer, and for what purpose? Why the UK? Did Al Qaeda cut some sort of cooperation deal with the Chechnens? If so, would these half-dozen (and probably multiples of that) Russians agree to a deal that would lay waste to a Western city? For what benefit in return? How would a dirty bomb or nuclear bomb further an anti-Putin project?
I’m completely stuck, even setting aside all logistical matters.
Going back to Vyacheslav Sokolenko again, the Guardian reported on Dec. 8 that Sokolenko’s story changes in various media accounts:
They will also want to question the so-called Third Man, Vyacheslav Sokolenko, a business associate of Mr Lugovoi, who was also at the Pine Bar. Mr Sokolenko was quoted last week as saying that when he met Mr Litvinenko he “shook hands out of politeness”. Apparently backtracking yesterday, he was quoted as saying: “Actually I never met him.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1967290,00.html
Mariposa, that sound s like a minor variation –I think his story is basically, he was standing in the lobby when Litinvenko came in and he shook his hand but it was a passing thing and he might not even have known who he was. (He was on his way out to the game.)
Reminds me of a deposition in the Ukraine. I asked the witness how long he had known the subject and the place broke up as the witness insisted he never knew the subject. (Turns out the translator used the term for carnal knowledge instead of the one to express more casual acquaitnance.) For a moment I thought the case was a goner~!
“I cannot for the life of me grasp who was on the receiving end. Forget about the logistics, given that the Russians seemed to be doing the transporting, who was the end consumer, and for what purpose?”
This is one reason why an assassination is sensible, I can’t come up with a rational reason for Chechens or most anyone else to simply smuggle Po into the UK – virtually all outcomes strengthen Putin. Then there’s expense argument, and a historical tendency for Kremlin ciritics to die through extra-ordinary means.
Supporting a simple assassination hypothesis, aside from Sasha’s unquestioned death from an extreme level of Po poisoning, is the minimal contamination reported everywhere else (except the cup and saucer), and the need for smuggling “enthusiasts” to expand any report to proportions consistent with smuggling large quantities of Po but inconsistent with reality. I’ve detailed this tendency to exaggerate the reporting here over the past few days.