Dec 15 2006
Lugovoi Definitely Berezovsky Ally
I was going to add this in a long line of comments to answer someone’s question, and decided to make a post for everyone to find. Lugovoi was definitely an ally of Berezovsky’s – so the assassination theory seems a little more stretched than it was before. And it explains why Goldfarb first tried to divert suspicion from Lugovoi. Now that Lugovoi is a participating witness (prossibly under a plea agreement) Berezvosky’s mouth piece is having to change tactics. Looks like everyman is now out for themselves in a battle that could put someone away for life. I am wondering more and more whether the Litvinenko incident and the spat of killings is really the preparation for some kind of coup d’etat in Russia.
This sheds some light on the Svets theory
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2508497,00.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/17/wrussia17.xml
more about this theory
Barbara, … where to start?
First off, there’s misinformation, disinformation, and sometimes no information being dispensed from all corners. One indisputable point is how closed and uncooperative Russia has been in the investigation, which is exactly how a state with something to hide or cover up acts (because they do). And you can’t dismiss the pattern of Putin/Kremlin dissidents and critics turning up dead, quite frequently. So this obviously fits the pattern of assassinations we’ve seen, and unfortunately, come to expect from this corrupt and dangerous state over the last few years (actually forever). And Russia/KGB have a history of using torture and horrid, painful killings, such as poionings (including PO), as a means of persuasion.
As Clarice has pointed out several times, the PO almost wasn’t discovered, and this trail of contamination would not have been known. But, although traces of the PO have been discovered, it seems to be very small, non-threatening levels. Indeed, PO is not harmful unless it gets inside the body. Thus, other than using as a trigger in a nuke, it would seem that many other substances would be much cheaper and easier and better to use for dirty bomb purposes. These points make it almost certain that Litv did not die from any accident. He was intentionally killed by planting it in his tea, or sugar cubes, or something that he ingested. As others here made clear in earlier threads/postings, it would be nearly impossible to inhale the amount that he had in him. So we know it’s murder, not an accident.
The PO that seems to have been detected in several places is there, but does not seem to be a danger. So far, there has been some contamination, but only Litv has been poisoned — no confirmation that Lug or Kov or Scar or Boris or anyone else has PO levels that are health risks. So, maybe there was an accident of sorts, and maybe the handlers were a little cavalier with the transport, but it sure appears more in line with assassination attempt(s) than any smuggling accident. And you overestimate the clean nature of “professoional” assassinations – unintended events, chance meetings, accidents, etc. happen quite often. Of course, they are usually covered up quite well or disinformation or distractions are then put in play to deflect the truth.
Why smuggle PO? Where’s the money trail? Would Litv or Boris really want it for a dirty bomb in the UK? Don’t think so. Did they want it for Chechen terrorists to strike at Russia? Boris – maybe, but I don’t think Litv, plus why take the circuitous route thru UK, when Chechenya is next door? And as mentioned earlier, there are far better, cheaper substances to use for bombs. Plus, there are no known smuggling attempts of PO, and no PO market for big $ to made. What about smuggling it to get back at Putin? This seems a stretch to me. There are better & easier ways to get at Putin than a convoulted PO smuggling attempt. And you talk about the assassins being total bunglers (which I debunked earlier), well it’s no different (actually worse) with smugglers. And Litv, being former KGB/FSB, he was very aware of the poison arsenal, including PO. So if he was involved in the smuggling he would have known better to take caution with handling.
I know it’s fun, but too many here are digging in too deep into the minutia and losing sight of obvious facts of the big picture. Did Putin order this hit? Almost assuredly no. Was he complicit? Could he have stopped it? I think so, but certainly Kremlin elements did this, and Putin knows exactly what happened. What about Boris? Well, I don’t doubt he’s also on the list, and maybe he was the primary target of this operation. But lucky for him, he has capable body guards and security oversight to survive … so far.
Mariposa was right on. With Russia the way it is, we will never know the real truth.
Barbara, this is different, though. The carelessness is overt, takes place in another country and is DETECTABLE. It’s not something a government would like to be associated with, unless they are at the brink of proclaiming a war.
Wiley, if it is smuggling and an accident, there is not as much reason to cover the tracks, because the low levels of Po are unlikely to be detected. Kill a man with it – and it’s a different story.
Personally, I find the Sokolvsky character somewhat odd at this point. Why did he take Lugovoi’s family for a spin – to make sure they weren’t present? Also, in the event of an assassination, I’d be looking at him, because his in the passing presence would be what one would expect from an assassin. It just doesn’t account for the Po trail.
Barbara,
You are taking radical leaps of logic in your claims of what I, and possibly others, believe.
First, no one ever said Shebalin came to London except you — as far as I know, puppet masters do not direct operations from the stage. Is Shebalin a “puppet master”? I don’t know. but probably not. I suspect he knows who is, and at the very least has information on an assassination group, which may be Vympel.
I believe Colonel Viktor (Victor, or V. V.) Shebalin has information on an assassination group that targeted Litvinenko because it is what Trepashkin claimed to know based on his own conversations with Shebalin. I believe Trepashkin’s letters are his because they’ve been written, along with many others, on more mundane matters from the past — in his own hand. Will more communication occur? Doubtful, because Russian authorities say that Trepashkin’s now been moved in a higher security facility — and many people, I among them, believe he will die there.
Notice I continually say “believe.”
Again, 1500+ page novels were smuggled out of the Soviet Union under active KGB watch, never discovered until they were published. Whatever obstructions people use, other people will eventually overcome them using imagination and sheer strength of human will. Smuggling in prisons and across borders happens, whether you believe it or not. There are networks for it. I find it amusing you might find it easier to believe that polonium could be smuggled across borders, but something as mundane as a sheet of paper can’t be smuggled out of a prison. Prisoners pass things among their own networks; guards get paid off, take it out themselves, or look the other way for whatever reason (they like Trepashkin; they object to his treatment; they are “true believers”; or whatever it takes to keep prison smuggling running). To believe letters can’t get in and out, when drugs and weapons do all of the time, is simply silly or naive.
And make no mistake: I firmly believe the weight of the blame for this “Litvinenko affair” lies squarely on Putin’s shoulders. He installed the siloviki. [Silovik. Reference.com. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Silovik (accessed: December 17, 2006).]
And one, or more, of their hands is in this “Litvinenko affair.”
As much as “Eltsin” is to blame for the not stemming the rise of the plundering oligarchs (and heck, Liebez even blames Clinton and Bush for that!), Putin is to blame for glutting the state leaderhip with siloviki — what is estimated to be sixty to eighty-five percent (60-85 %) in state leadership positions. The siloviki, like the party apparatchik, is being handed all the plum positions of power and profit.
And until it gets too tight to breathe again for the common man in Russia, their people will absolutely love Putin for this. Why? Well, because it’s comparable to Afghanistan before the Taliban controlled it — complete gangsterism and lawlessness. Average Afghanis literally couldn’t walk down the streets without fear. They welcomed the Taliban. At first. The siloviki are getting the mafia and mayhem under control.
Now in Russia there is more order with the law than there was, but the law is being gutted from the inside, until it’s like a Potempkin village, as far as rights of ownership and property rights are concerned. With the siloviki is being handed all the power and profit. That is, in itself, another run-away system in which all the power is concentrated at the top and there is no transparency. And Putin’s siloviki is grooming the next generation in groups of attractive young street thugs like the Yashi brownshirts.
So, Barbara, you’re right: someone worse than Putin may eventually rise from this path. In fact, in light of history and the way Russia is going, I have no doubt that will happen.
Wiley, a few points on your “Barbara, … where to start?” post:
“…So this obviously fits the pattern of assassinations we’ve seen…”
No, it doesn’t. Polonium was never used, and this death occurred outside of Russia. And even if it did, it doesn’t mean that this couldn’t be an accident related to smuggling, or a hit that occurred opportunistically as a result of a smuggling accident.
“As Clarice has pointed out several times, the PO almost wasn’t discovered, and this trail of contamination would not have been known.”
That applies equally to both theories.
” But, although traces of the PO have been discovered, it seems to be very small, non-threatening levels. Indeed, PO is not harmful unless it gets inside the body. Thus, other than using as a trigger in a nuke, it would seem that many other substances would be much cheaper and easier and better to use for dirty bomb purposes. ”
This fits in perfectly with the smuggling theory: Why kill with Polonium? As we know, it’s highly dangerous and difficult to control, not to mention extremely expensive.
“These points make it almost certain that Litv did not die from any accident.”
What?
“He was intentionally killed by planting it in his tea, or sugar cubes, or something that he ingested. As others here made clear in earlier threads/postings, it would be nearly impossible to inhale the amount that he had in him. So we know it’s murder, not an accident.”
You begin with a huge leap of faith supposition, and end with another. Polonium is extremely deadly and even the tiniest amount could easily end in death.
“Why smuggle PO?”
This is obvious.
“Where’s the money trail?”
Covered many times. Who knows? Straw man.
“And you talk about the assassins being total bunglers (which I debunked earlier)…”
You did? There was bungling no matter what scenario, unless you really really reach, so it seems irrelevant in determining what happened. Incompetence or ignorance happens. Happened.
“So if he was involved in the smuggling he would have known better to take caution with handling.”
As I said, the same would apply to an assassin.
“Mariposa was right on. With Russia the way it is, we will never know the real truth. ”
Well we can agree on that!!
QUOTE: ” With Russia the way it is, we will never know the real truth. â€
Same for JFK, Bobby K, 9/11, Princess Diana, you name it.
Not just Russia.
So we can’t agree on that at all.
Copydude
JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald on orders by Russia
Bobby Kennedy was killed by Sirhan Sirhan on orders of the Wahabists or others like them.
19 muslim extremists flew planes into three buildings between 8:00 and 9:00 on the morning of 9/11/01
Princess Diana’s driver was drunk and going too fast in a French tunnel with the papparazi following her and crashed. If anyone was culpable in this accident it was the papparazi who caused the accident.
Please don’t say you are one of these conspiracy buffs who think the US government is responsible for each and every one of these tragedies. I have heard enough from them.