Jan 17 2007
Note To Republicans: You Can Stay In The Minority
I have a message to Republicans who want to punish people who are trying to make a living and simple do not have the forms to do so. Like the lack of any other license, the penalties for not supplying paperwork usually are fines and probation. Illegal workers are not felons (note to Reps, you lost that battle too). So confiscation of property and a forced march to the borders is out of the question as a measured punishment.
The President’s worker program has penalties: back taxes must be paid, jobs must be out in the open an compliant with employment and tax laws (which will reduce take home pay), and no time in country up until registration into the program can be used towards citizenship. These are not trivial and a lot more than most Americans would face for not having their papers in order (or not filing their taxes). The carrot for immigrants is the ability to work openly – if they can keep employed and stay out of trouble. Background checks will toss out the criminal element no one wants here, but which are a small minority of the illegal population.
Reps claim they will fight Mel Martinez (Senator from ‘third world Florida’ according to one rabid Rep) over his support of the guest worker program. Right now the word ‘amnesty’ from a Rep equates with “I am ready to lose more elections to liberals because I won’t listent to the conservatives who disagree with me”. So the response is immediate from the other side. The anti-amnesty folks are a non starter in every sense. And if it means the Reps remain out of power, then so be it. There are plenty of options out there for voters. And if you doubt this let me make the obvious point. Florida is the anchor to Republican Presidential bids. Dems have CA and NY tied up and the Reps haveTX. Without FL Reps will never see the White House. And Florida is not a deep red state. It has one Rep and one Dem Senator. It was the 2000 decisive battlefield with the closest Presidential race in modern history. Insulting Floridians will only deepen the Reps period in political ‘time out’ for misbehaving. Why some marginal Reps are so obsessed with extreme punishment in this matter is beyond me. But their extremism on this one issue will anchor the Reps in the minority for as long as it takes for them to get over it.
SteveVVS
OK so you have a point, what do you want done about it?
Out here in California, we are finally starting to see screening in the jails for criminal illegals by State law enforcement. Guess what, the vast majority of local law enforcement want nothing to do with this, it’s a Federal crime, a Federal responsibility and local LE want nothing to do with doing a Federal job.
There’s a story every week about local LE calling ICE and saying they have illegals, or suspected illegals in their jails, and many times ICE won’t come out…unsatisfactory in the extreme.
I do fault the President right now on this issue, as he could by Presidential order ICE personnel stationed at every major city jail checking for illegals. He just has to figure out how to pay for it with everything else going on. If he would do something like this, I for one would think he’s serious about the issue, showing real leadership on the issue and with no new laws.
retire
Nice straw man
” Perhaps Steve_LA would like to compare the cost of illegals we now have to pay from the taxpayer’s coffers as compared to enforcement of our laws. And would Steve_LA say the same thing if we were dealing with 12 million terrorists or 12 million pedophiles?”
No there would be no problem with enforcement if there were 12 million pedophiles, but there would be a problem with 12 million deaths as parents started taking the law into their own hands.
As to the other parts of your screed, you should actually pay attention to what is going on in the medical care field. My local hospital is already starting to do what you suggest as are many others due to rules changes from Medicare on not paying for anything other than life threating unless a person can prove they are here legally. Expect law suits soon.
Lastly, there’s this tinge of racism in a lot of your wild eyed hard core illegal immigration foes, I’m not sure where it comes from but it’s there. If you’re worried about this country turning brown, too late, CA is already a majority minority state, others are on the way. Deal with it.
Steve_LA, if we limited our LE to enforcing only those laws covered by their jurisdiction, we would never enforce any laws. And yes, ICE is negligent in their duties to enforce our laws, but that has to come from top down, not bottom up.
How to pay for it? How about stopping the $5 BILLION that Texas alone pays for social services for illegals? I would be more than happy to add that $5 BILLION to the federal coffers for enforcement.
Legalizing millions of people who are already here is not going to help the problem of more coming. The Democrats have seen to that with the new minimum wage bill. So now you will have millions of newly legal people, all eligible for the minimum wage, who will be replaced by even more illegals who are willing to work for less. Now those here will be out of a job and will then be drawing unemployment, getting public housing, food stamps, WIC and Medicare and Medicaid for their children because they are now legal residents and entitled to those social benefits.
So the cycle will continue.
Until you make the practice of hiring illegals cost prohibitive, you will not stop the flow of illegals. Then what do we do? Do we initiate another amnesty in 2017?
We need immigration as a nation. But we don’t need to take those from nations that do not benefit ours. Immigration should benefit the host nation, not be a benefit to the nation that encourages self deportation of it’s citizens so it doesn’t have to take care of them.
retire
I don’t disagree with you, but what happens when we put in a secure SS card, employee sanctions and a bunch of other stuff after the current 15 Million illegals are brought out of the shadows?
This country is running at the low end of jobs on cheap illegal labor, fixing the supply, matching demand to supply through a rational guest worker program, going after employers who hire illegals after reform are all part of the package.
It’s not the answer you want, you want to get the horse back in the barn after we the American people and our elected leaders left the barn door open sense 1985, but that horse has no intention of going back and the American people won’t stand by as you try to beat the horse back to where you want him. Oh and by the way, those of you who are all hung up about this issue and want to see draconian measures are about to be dumped into the Kook bin.
I’m not saying people are not mad about this issue, just that most people don’t shoot the horse that they are riding because it won’t go back to the barn.
Steve_LA, if you hospital is turning people away from emergency room treatment because of any reason, yes, that is against the law. The SCOTUS has already ruled that no person, legal or illegal, can be refused medical treatment, for any ailment, because of the inability to pay.
Now of couse, you had to throw in the “racist” canard. It is what you who advocate legaization of millions of law breakers do. But wait, the pro-amnesty bunch is quick to point out that not all illegals are Hispanic. Yet, if I am against illegal immigration I am a “racist”. So is it racist of me to think that the over 6,000 illegal Irishmen who are in the city of New York should be deported when my mother’s maiden name was O’Brien? If a Hispanic cannot be racist against another Hispanic, or a Asian against another Asian, how can I be racist against other Irishmen?
Texas is also a majority-mintority (or is minority-majority?) state. So what? We have, like CA, a strong Hispanic heritage. And you will find that it is the Tejanos who are strongly against illegal immigration in Texas. They realize the cost to the Tejano population.
You seem to know little about horses. If a horse is locked in a barn without food and water, that horse will kick the barn door down to get to where food and water is.
Deny illegals social services and jobs and they will self-deport.
Retire05,
Deny people, especially chlidren, emergency medical care?
What kind of cold policy is that? A baby needs attention your response is to turn it away? And you wonder why people have had it with the far right.
I suppose you ‘claim’ to be against abortion. Thanks, but that is not my concept of a human being.
AJ, everytime you discuss immigration, you remind me of Geraldo Rivera on the OReilly show defending these “hard working pro-American” immigrants who “just wanted to become Americans”. In the picture in the background, there was a sea of Mexican flags and two American flags….upside down. Now I would still agree that most of the illegal Mexicans living in American right now want to work and have a good life for their family, I don’t believe for one second that most of them want to become Americans. What they want is exactly what they have right now,(not paying taxes, free health care, free schooling, free foodstamps, welfare, housing assistance, and the ability to adopt another identification whenever they get into trouble), with one minor exception, they want the law to stop bothering them. If you actually listened to what they said during those immigration marches when they were interviewed by the press, you heard a lot of “Reconquista!” shouts and “Si Se Puede!”(Yes we can). My problem with this little experiment is that we cannot afford to take in another hundred million immigrants over the next few years. How many of those do you think will go to Herndon? (I KNEW YOU WERE EAST COAST!!!) Do you really think that another thirty to fifty thousand Mexicans is not going to change the quality of life there. Every little piece of America that becomes over sixty or seventy percent Mexican is not American anymore. If you don’t believe that, get you’re east coast butt out here and take a little tour of the borders with me. I’m dead serious about this AJ. If you want to come out to Southern Cali, I’ll give you a personal tour of the places down here that are over run with illegals. And we will be armed! I’ll even show you some of the other side of the border if you want, but down there, guns are illegal and crime is so rampant, well off Mexicans are fleeing for the border because of the kidnapping wave. So we’ll have to do that only in daylight.
The one thing about this issue that you cannot deny is that peoples opposition to the proposed immigration bill is directly proportionate to the level at which they are exposed to the problem. That should tell you everything.
AJ, once again, you twist the meaning of my words. I never said deny children emergency treatment. But for ER’s to have to treat things like scratched knees that can be treated with Neosporin and a bandaid, is absurd. And that happens every day in every ER.
My son works the ER in a major hospital in Austin. Some of the things they treat?
heat rash
scratched knees
hangovers (yep, hangovers)
common colds
headaches
diaper rash
and a 100 other ailments that could be treated by visiting the local pharmacist.
Do you really want to pay for that with higher insurance premiums? Because in order for hospitals to offset those costs they must raise the cost for the insured which raises the cost of insurance premiums.
Our ERs are being used as doctor’s offices.
Barbara Jordan was very specific that treatment should be limited to life threatening illnesses or illnesses that threaten the population as a whole. Sick children should be treated. A grown man with a hangover should not be.
Retire…
I know a few things about horses, yep, and one is you can’t shoot them all.
As to being racist, I don’t know whats’ in your heart, but there is a whole bunch of folks in your camp who are all upset about how “brown” this country is turning and if you lay down with dogs you’re likely to get fleas.
Sorry Retire05,
Until you admit them you cannot discern what the problem is. I didn’t misinterpret your words. I exposed you to the underlying truth of your words. And you never like it when I do that.
Someday you will break the code on this dance we play.
Suspect in fatality held again Man was deported before ’99 trial in traffic death; Arpaio assails system
Michael Kiefer and Michael Clancy
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 6, 2007 12:00 AM
A man deported seven years ago before he could stand trial on charges stemming from a traffic accident that killed a 16-year-old Glendale girl was arrested this week after failing to show up for a court appearance.
Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio called it a case of a broken criminal justice system. And a spokesman for the Maricopa County Attorney’s Office pointed out that the same could not happen today under a law that went into effect after the November elections. The new law denies bail to undocumented immigrants who commit serious crimes.
Manuel Sanchez, 38, was indicted on manslaughter charges in 1999 but failed to appear in court because he had been turned over to immigration officials after posting a low bond and was deported to Mexico.
He was re-arrested in November but put up $27,000 bail and was released.
When he failed to appear in court again Wednesday, a Maricopa County Superior Court commissioner issued a warrant for his arrest, and he was apprehended later that day.
DHS Faces Claim for Not Deporting Violent Alien
Washington Times ^ | Nov. 06 | Jerry Seper
Stephen Heiss, decorated U.S. Marine, died on Aug. 28, 2005, after being shot by an illegal alien. Miguel Padilla, 27, also is accused of murdering two other Americans prior to his murder of Heiss, and hasn’t spent a day in prison. His mother, outraged at this travesty, has filed a suit against Homeland Security which she feels is responsible for Stephen’s death by its utter failure to secure our borders.
Social Security siphon
Washington Times ^ | Jan.5. 2007 | Editorial
On its way to bankruptcy, Social Security will get there a bit sooner if President Bush, Republican senators John McCain, Chuck Hagel and Sam Brownback…… The Bush administration has reached an agreement with Mexico that would permit illegal aliens…..to claim Social Security benefits for the work they performed while in the United States illegally, even if the illegal aliens committed felonies by using fraudulent Social Security documents to obtain their jobs. It would automatically become law if Congress does not reject it. Opposing this deal should be an easy decision. But last year the Republican-led Senate narrowly rejected an amendment…
Sat Nav for Mexicans illegally entering US
Sunday Telegraph ^ | December 31, 2006 | Justin Stares
Illegal immigrants planning to cross the desert and enter the US on foot are to be given hand-held satellite devices by the Mexican authorities to ensure they arrive safely. Those who get lost or fall sick during the dangerous four-day crossing will be able to activate the device, to alert frontier police on both sides of the border. The satellite tracking service will require would-be illegals to register their intentions before setting off — a paradoxical move, given that secrecy is necessary for success — but Mexican authorities are predicting that about 200,000 devices will be handed out when the…
Illegals become repeat criminals
The Washington Times ^ | January 9, 2007 | Jerry Seper
Criminal aliens set free on the streets of America — instead of being deported after serving their time — are being rearrested as many as six more times by U.S. authorities, according to a government audit released yesterday. But the Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General said it did not know how many of 262,105 illegals in the audit, who had been charged with a crime and then released, had been rearrested.
Alleged Cop Killer Extradited from Mexico (thrice deported illegal)
United States Marshals Service ^ | January 09, 2007 | unattributed
ALLEGED COP KILLER EXTRADITED FROM MEXICOJorge Arroyo-Garcia Accused of Killing Sheriff’s Deputy in 2002 Washington, D.C. – In the pre-dawn hours this morning, Deputy U.S. Marshals and agents of Mexico’s Agencia Federal de Investigationes (AFI) delivered fugitive Jorge Arroyo-Garcia to the Orange County California jail in Santa Ana. Garcia is a vicious fugitive wanted for the murder of Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff David March four years ago. Garcia was flown from Mexico City to Tijuana late last night, where the Marshals and AFI agents turned him over to Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Investigators. A convoy of Sheriff’s Deputies,…
As You Can See Deportation without ENFORCEMENT of the BORDER, is Futile!
Stevevvs,
You can keep posting these all day long – no argument criminals should be shown the door never to return. That is what the background checks are for in the guest worker program, and the end to endless protests in courts.
But we don’t have any of this now -thanks to the Reps. It is all their fault. We can do borders and register law abiding workers at the same time. In fact we must because we have people here now who do not deserve the right to stay. In fact I was happy to deport anyone who tried to sneak in during the last year to get a bye. All now gone.
Anyone who demands otherwise is out of this debate. Recall that election last year they lost for the Reps was their message to America. Heard loud and clear – now they are irrelevant.
AJ, until you live on the border instead of your area that is basically the overflow, don’t tell me I don’t understand the problem.
You just don’t like anyone who disagrees with you and poses logically questions to you. Time and time again, you have refused to answer my questions on illegal immigration.
Tell me, AJ, are you still against illegals violating your housing standard laws while you are advocating that border states just suck it up and accept that illegals are here and we have no right to object to the costs that are imposed on us to provide for those illegals?
And what is the underlying truth of my words? That I believe int the rule of law? That I think those who break our laws should suffer the consequences of those decisions?
Why do we have borders, AJ? Why do we have laws on the books that say employers break the law when they hire illegals? Why do we not just throw open the borders, tell anyone who wants to come in to do so, and we will just end all immigration laws? What is the purpose of immigration laws?
Amnesty for illegals is just another feel-good policy that will lead to more problems that it solves. Welfare was another feel good policy that was supposed to eliminate poverty in the United States. We all know how well that worked. We saw, first hand, what happens when you take away personal responsibility and individual ambition by giving people a check when Katrina hit.
Slam me all you want. Call me a racist. I really don’t care. But you, and our president are flat out wrong on this issue. And your reluctance to look at the other side of the coin, or to answer the hard questions, only confirms that.
AJ, you say that Republicans lost last year due to immigration debates.
I guess Arizona didn’t get the message. Neither did Texas as our representatives are now addressing on a state issue what the federal government refuses to deal with.
But maybe you don’t consider Arizona and Texas to be part of “America”.
AJ, how long do you think it will take to do background checks on 12 million people?
Do you think that nations like China and Mexico will cooperate and give us the information that is needed? Or do you think they really want to take back criminals?
Background checks are easy for criminal records with today’s integrated databases. We have to have them registered if they work here. So the check is actually minimal part of the initial screening. But of course that is not a reason to not check them! Just another weak excuse to do nothing. Those are easy to think up. Which is why the Reps are out of leadership in Congress. They spent all their energy finding reasons not to do something. That is why they will not be back until they decide to make things happen instead of making excuses for inexcusable paralysis. Recall, we have nothing today thanks to the fence-only crowd in the House. They wanted to own this debacle and now they do. Listening to more excuses for inaction is just more of the same.
Retire05,
I never said you misunderstood the problem. I said you don’t get the solution and now are part of the problem because you hold any progress hostage to your extreme views. I am quite clear where the fence-only crowd falls in this mess, and it is well outside the ‘viable solution’ box.
Who says the donks are ahead, now, because they have a thin majority?
Seems to me they’ve been given more “stage room” into which they can tumble and stumble.
And, heads are supposed to change! Congress isn’t like the opera. Where you buy tickets only if your favorite singer is scheduled to perform.
Then, also, if you look at the numbers. How many Americans participated in voting last November? (Oh, and in close-calls, how many ballot boxes contained stolen votes? You think only LBJ laughed that he had an “extra box” in his office “just in case?”)
There once was a time in America, that only MEN were allowed to vote. And, to get them to “take time off from working,” they were offered alcoholic drinks.
In other words?
There’s something about the system that resembles a circus.
What’s a big show stopper at the circus? The high wire acts. And, not just because of the tight fitting costumes. But because of the Laws of Physics. And, even though there are kids in the circus’ audience, doesn’t mean that some performers don’t go “splat.”
As a matter of fact, it was the business of “splat,” that brought the circus clowns OUT. Think about it.
Usually, traffic slows down at accidents.
But in the circus? The clowns come out. To “distract you.”
Are you sufficiently distracted now?
There’s no guarantees what’s gonna happen, ahead, either. About the only think you KNOW, is that the media is hostile. And, Bush is doing okay, anyway. He hasn’t run into any of the problems that caught Nixon off guard. (And, I think Beldar’s right about the veto pen, too. The opportunities for BUSH far exceed the harms the clowns can do to his performance.) What people vote for in any given cycle is not as good as the Constitutional guarantees. (And, it’s gonna be in those areas where Bush is ultimately judged.)
While the market place? Even circuses don’t draw the same crowds into their tents, like they used to. Though where you find the circus, you find freaks able to support themselves with jobs.
AJ,
Agree.
FE,
Agree on enforcement of laws. But effective enforcement will require a computerized tracking system and an electronic ID.
STEVE_LA,
Agree that problem is much more complex than “amnesty” and “building a fence.” The “just build a fence” crowd are too anal. And the folks that fear being over-run by Hispanics or Asians betray a Euro-centric bigotry