Jan 21 2007
Ridiculous News Media On Litvinenko’s Poisining
Litvinenko was either the victim of an assassination or part of a smuggling effort that was moving Po-210 through London. Investigators have discovered Po-210 at three hotels which were used by Andrei Lugovoi on three trips in October. But the Po-210 was not found in one room (as would be the case with an assassin), but in multiple rooms in each case. And at each visit and the surfacing of Po-210 at the scene Lugovoi met with Alexander Litvinenko.
Lugovoi and Litvinenko share a common history – they both worked for Boris Berezvosky. The one man with the funding and motivation to acquire Russian Po-210 outside of Russia, in countries which import the material, and smuggle it back into Russia in order to execut false flag attacks on Russia in the hopes of pinning them on Putin. To make good on his threat that he would topple Putin with force.
And the amount of Po-210 that has been found across London, Hamburg and Moscoq is hundreds or thousands of times the amount ingested by Litvinenko. Recently it was reported that Litvinenko was exposed to Po-210 twice. Some, grasping to the unraveling assassination theory, tried to say this was two attacks on Litvinenko.
The jokeon this train of thought is if someone had just had two grains of Po-210 the size of a salt grain they could have killed Litvinenko a thousand times over. Why would anyone keep smuggling such small amounts of Po-210 they would equal a thousandth of a grain of salt on two occasions when a grain of salt’s worth would do the job without any doubt? Well, this ridiculous line of thinking is now being expanded again as we learn Litvinenko was exposed more than twice to Po-210:
The former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko is likely to have been the target of “multiple” poisoning attempts before his death, it has been reported.
…
ut the first attempt to poison him with polonium-210 may have come weeks earlier, when he met two former KGB men in the same sushi bar on October 16, according to the BBC’s Panorama programme.
Oh please! Enough of this nonsense. It takes no special extra effort to get a grain of salt’s worth of Po-210 into London than it does to get a thousandths or a millionth of a grain of salt’s worth. For the other exposures to not kill Litvinenko means he was exposed to levels that are well under the 50 billionths of a gram that are the lethal dosage. Billionths of a packet of sweetener? What were all these ‘attacks’ suppose to accomplish? One small sliver of Po-210 and the man is dead in less time than he actually died.
So now we are suppsed to believe these assassins risked using this dangerous and expensive and easily traced material and kept dosing Litvinenko with these sub-microscopic amounts which were so small they were never able to get killer dose in Litvinenko? Sorry folks, but you can only stretch this nonsense so far. One grain of salt’s worth and he was dead.
And one other point. When Po-210 comes from a single production run, all the Po-210 has the same signature and decay time. It is impossible from looking at Po-210 from the same batch to say WHEN it was ingested over multiple exposures. Each dose of Po-210 would look identical to the others – same source signature, same time since production.
So, if there is clear indication of multiple expsoures then that is a clear sign we are seeing different production runs of Po-210. This is another fact of physics which cannot be disputed. Po-210 from two processing facilities will not have the same signature. And even two different production runs in the same facility will not have the same decay signature since the decay signature is predicated on the creation date.
So what does it mean there were two or more different batches of Po-210? It means the Po-210 was acquired from different sources, possibly in different countries. This will put the nail in the assassination theory. This kind of acquisition is overkill millions of times over if all you need is one grain of salt’s worth in a tea cup. An amount of Po-210 the size of a grain of salt would kill Litvinenko thousands of times over. It would make 100-1000 doses (or more) of the dose that killed Litvinenko. A grain of salt’s worth. You don’t need two or more consignments to get this grain of salt’s worth. You don’t need to go through the expense and risk to get consignments from two or more sources (read countries) and risk the smuggling to kill Litvinenko. One source, one grain of salt’s worth, and you can still do what was done to Litvinenko a thousand times over.
So since there is a clear indication of ‘mulitple’ exposures, this tells me the clarity of these conclusions is the fact the Po-210 smuggled on each occasion was from a different batch and source. There is no other way to explain the surity of these conclusions. And I would predict there may have been more than three consignments – we only know of the three linked to Lugovoi-Litvinenko meetings.
The assassination theory is a scientific joke. The amounts we are talking abouyt which killed Litvinenko are so small they cannot be seen by the human eye. Yet people think someone tried three times, with these microscopic amounts, to assassinate Litvinenko, and failed. When an amount the size of a salt grain would do it easily this assassin broke it into millionths of that amount and kept failing to kill Litvinenko. Yeah, and pigs can fly.
This was not an assassination. That young, central asian man who flew to London with Kovtun and idisappeared the same day all the Po-210 left London sounds like a Chechen, monitoring the final movements of all the Po-210 that made its way through London last October. There are amounts of Po-210 spread all over London, Hamburg and Moscow that would kill Litvinenko many times over. How is it this assassination effort got more Po-210 on the rug of a hotel room than they ever got into Litvinenko after ‘multiple’ tries? Forget the assassination theory. If the trail and the poisoned people are simply the debris from handling (and mishandling) the Po-210, then the big questions is what was the amount of Po-210 that was being smuggled that left this trail?
Has the media said where the polonium came from? You seem to suggest that it was going to Russia. Where was it from?
Also, I don’t see where it says the assassin came from or where he went to after the poisoning.
I assumed Russia, but I don’t think the media accounts actually say.
Espionage. It’s not a small world. There are countries who have more spooks than soldiers in their standing army. And, places like China? Again, lots of people are spies. (Or, eyes and ears. And, paid for what they see and hear.)
We’re just NOT trained to notice. We wouldn’t notice the hotel room maid, for instance. Staff like that, along with kitchen help. Tends to blend into the woodwork.
But I remember reading HaLevi’s book. (The Israeli spy master.) And he used to test his people by having them try to follow him out of the office. In one reference, he carried a hat in his pocket. A beret. And, while his trainees were being trained to focus; he’d walk along, and suddenly drop out of sight.
So, we just don’t know how many pairs of eyes have been on the russians, now, for awhile. And, also who are very concerned about smuggling “suitcase nukes” about. (Or that’s what we’d call them if we were asked to describe what sorts of threats have been added to the one’s where people strap on explosives. And, blow themselves up.)
Again, its in the numbers.
What we do know of Litvinenko. And, his pals. Is that they felt comfortable walking about London. And, going into hotels. (It’s not easy to do that in Moscow! Without being trailed.)
And, for all we know, before Litvinenko died, a lot of “professionals” were onto the game. And, following it.
Yet, we don’t know what the “container for the po-210 looked like. Or why Madame Curie was exposed. When all I thought she had been playing with was the magic of X-Ray. When our own bones would show up on a piece of photographic paper “under the right conditions.”
Still, in hospitals people don’t panic when the X-Ray technician comes by. We take for granted that we’ll be exposed to the process of getting X-Rays taken. Without such unfortunate consequences, that our hairs would fall out. And, we’d be killed by radiation.
That, however, is the part of the story that’s broken open, here.
I’d also venture to guess, since a lot of stuff is transported FROM russia, that all flights out of russia, into Contenental airports. Or, really, generally any airport that gets incoming flights from Moscow; to be well-covered with professional eyes and ears. But like I said. We wouldn’t know this. Even if we were at the airport. And, we saw, for instance, orange cones set up by a toilet door. And, a man with a mop, walks in.
Part of this is that we treat strangers as if they’re non-existent. When the world of espionage is full of people, as I said, who can earn extra money IF they know who’d give them some. In exchange for what they see and hear.
It turns out the russians are comfortable in London, for the same reasons arabs are comfortable. They’re not threatened with deportation. As a matter of fact, the behaviors, no matter how anti-social they could be, go about as if nothing bad could possibly happen.
In other words? All of us would have been innocent passengers on 9/11. And, even the pilots and staff were unaware of what the arabs had trained for. When all the arabs did was up the ante on hijacking. Something the West knew already was done. And, people were taught to cooperate.
Right now? I don’t think most of us feel like we’re in a cooperating mood.
And, I for one think something terrible was being bought. But it was not, as Rumsfeld would say: “An unknown unknown.” Professionals didn’t need Litvinenko to keel over, either, to have some idea of the threats to ordinary citizens.
The biggest differences these days is in the threat levels being greater in Iraq, than any other place. And, it’s “not all over that country,” either. But stuck in Baghdad. And, stuck their by the media who makes big deals of what the terrorists do when they plant explosives among civilians. And, run.
Which brings me back to the world of espionage. I doubt countries are just waiting around, clueless. Not in this environment.
And, either Litvinenko, as a carrier of radioactive merchandise was just incompetent. He didn’t know there were leaks! While if others knew? Nobody is stepping forward to say that the smuggling ring was not in trouble.
So? If they were “in trouble” because of pro-active espionage activities, we will never get a story pointing in this direction. Any more than you’d hear more than the “one bullet theory” in John F. Kennedy’s assassination. When a lot of insiders knew more than they’d ever tell.
It would be interesting to know more about how the smuggling was done, though.
And, it’s good to see that no one is really buying the theory that Litvinenko was murdered. Unless, of course, he thought he was carrying something “tamper proof” that turned out to be something that he could ingest and inhale. And, nobody would know HOW he got this into his own system. (You also don’t know if some “nurse” on the floor, coming to give him a comforting injection of barbituates, had the needle “dipped” into a container with “high flying alpha particles.”
Most of us just don’t assume what espionage agents are trained to comprehend. “To fade into crowds” and “disappear” is something taught. And, the best agents, working for the best “Mossad’s” … know a lot of tricks we don’t.
As to assassination by thuggery, the russians are quite capable of throwing someone out the window. Or beating them up in dark alleys with tire irons.
It seems strange that a “new method” would be introduced into this world. Especially one where now at least the imam at the mosque is scared of radiation! Or was that a MacGuffen? To get Litvinenko’s body safely out of London, and to someplace else?
While I’m also pretty sure the “other porcelain,” the toilet bowl; could have gotten a lot of evidence flushed. Again, without concerns to the population at large.
But the PR? AJ, you noticed right away that only frightened people would go that route. Who’d hire a PR agent, if everything else in this investigation was on the up and up?
As to the media knowing anything, I’m still convinced the media does what its told. Because they developed those habits in the days the media was in bed with the CIA. And, ALL STORIES WERE PLANTS to “do harm to enemies,” or opposition party members.
A lot’s been lost off that Rolodex Wheel. Certainly since Dan Rather came out to play, and his career got devasted in return.
What good is po-210 without a delivery system? Litvinenko isn’t worth hundreds of millions of dollars in smuggling investments. And, whatever heated up the wires; that brought Scaramella all the way from italy. Was his identity a secret? Secrets just pop open on their very own? Or was there a huge espionage circle that came on the scene? What upset the apple cart?
I’ll bet Scotland Yard is not really sharing secrets!
While we’re still attempting to figure out what we just don’t know.
AJ–
Gordievsky is the most famous KGB officer ever to defect to the west. Acccording to what I have read, he worked for the British in the London residency until he was recalled to Moscow under suspicion.
He was investigated, but there was not good proof, so he wasn’t jailed. The British sneaked him out of Russia.
It is hard to see how this person would be involved with smuggling polonium unless the truth is much different than reported.
He also wrote some interesting books.
This article says the killed came to London from Hamburg.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/01/22/013.html
AJ – good rant. It sounds to me like the PO they found in different places could have been from different batches and they are theorizing that Litvinenko had been “poisoned” more than once because of that – or would the atopsy show the rates of decay in the PO they recovered from his body or from his urine tests? I’m not denying that he could have put his finger in his mouth every single time he dealt with PO – that seems likely – but couldn’t the PO have come from the same place in small amounts at different times because they were trying to hide the stealing? I guess I’m not clear again on the chemistry of it all so somebody please enlighten me – since the signatures change over time due to decay why not smuggled from just one location on different dates? It sounds to me like they were either trying to accumulate somewhere a large quantity in one place in London from different shipments or they were dividing the shipments up and selling it? to a bunch of different people – either way it is not pretty. I’m in over my head on this but for sure it wasn’t assasination.
Lizade1,
The Po-210 from the same production run will look the same no matter when it was ingested. It is the half-life thing. After 40 days half the Po-210 has turned to lead. So a batch 20 days old has a quarter of the Po-210 turned to lead and a batch 40 days old has half of it gone. This can be measured down to the day and sometimes the hour. So if the material came from the same processing facility (which has its own signature in the material) but from two batches it is easily detected. If the material came from two facilities (different production signatures) it is also easy to identify.
My guess is they know there were multiple contaminations because they have found indications the Po-210 came from more than one production run and/or more than one production facility. Either one or both kills off the assassination theory and makes this a smuggling effort. You don’t need two sources or batches for a thousandth of a grain of salt worth of Po-210.
I think the most interesting thing about that article is the news that the Po was found in the sushi restaurant where Lugovoi and Sasha and Kovtun sat in October, not where Sasha and Scaramella sat on Nov 1.
I still think that if these guys were playing around with the amounts of P0 you’d prefer, AJ, we’d see much larger amounts of contamination everywhere and many more poisoning deaths, and the large amounts you suggest would be far too costly, following your argument, since that salt grain of Po costs $25M (or whatever the figure was). The room and the cup remain the only places with significant amounts of Po, other than Sasha.
The original “double poisoning” story was probably based on looking at Sasha’s bones and seeing two rings of absorbed Po caused by two poisonings, this story is really about the Russians in October and where the Po was found in the sushi bar, there’s no new multiple (3-4) poisoning story here. BTW, I’d bet there isn’t enough radiation available from the October sites to do any sort of production fingerprinting of the sort that you describe.
I’m still wondering if Lugovoi and Kovtun were mucking around with Po in Russia, or if this Vlad guy was and thus contaminated them – accidentally or deliberately.
Another point is that if Sasha was poisoned on the morning of Nov 1, why no contamination from where he was subsequently with Scaramella? I’d expect to see this.
So is Sasha’s “tea with Vlad” story false? We still need to know what Sasha did after sushi, we need to know if those papers Scaramella gave him were contaminated (no, not my old poisoning theory but
to see if later in the day there is a sign of him being contaminated).
I’m still not near supporting the grand idea of a smuggling ring, but the idea that Sasha was poisoned on the morning of Nov 1 yet didn’t contaminate the sushi bar that day is troubling.
Jerry,
You are listening to Scaramella’s claims and taking them as gospel. Not a good idea IMHO.
Jerry,
Where are you getting the two rings on the bone theory from? Po-210 is not like other ‘poisons’. It kills be destroying cells, one at a time. Each P0-210 decay will kill a cell or cells in the vicinity when the decay happens. The Po-210 turns to lead and is harmless. Do you have a medical our scientific source that rings on bones occur with alpha radiation?
The idea is that Po in the body would be absorbed into bone, so if you cut the bone in cross section and put a section on film you would see rings of radioactivity (sort of like tree rings, peaks of radioactivity) – two peaks for two poisonings – if there had been a period of time between the exposures.
We’ve been told that because of the autopsy the investigators think Sasha was poisoned on two occasions. AJ, I think you suggested that this was suggested by Po both in the lungs and gut. I was trying to think of a way to show that someone was poisoned twice, I couldn’t think of a way to do this with soft tissues but I think it is true of bones (and teeth) that chemicals will be absorbed and two exposures can be distinguished like I described above.
AJ,
I can’t help but notice that the trail of polonium, starting October 16, is tied to movements of Logovoi, like a trail of breadcrumbs. All the hotels are contaminated in the rooms he was registered, the contaminated planes are the ones he flew on, the contaminated couch in Berezovsky’s office is where Logovoi sat , the soccer stadium had traces of radiation, (probably where he sat), the Pescatori restaurant, where he and the group went. I believe he visited the security firms and he even left contamination at the British embassy in Moscow.
All this contamination has intrigued me espescially since Lugovoi doesn’t seem critically ill. Now there is this story that the contamination at the sushi bar corresponds to the seats where Logovoi, Kovtun and Litvenenko sat on October 16.
How is Logovoi contaminating all these sites over multiple weeks? Well, what if the polonium is on a trenchcoat or overcoat, especially on the sides or back of the coat where he would sit down on it. The weather was getting colder by then in Mid-October and he was possibly wearing this coat on a regular basis. You generally don’t have your outer coat cleaned as often as a suit or shirt or slacks. Is it possible to have traces of polonium in the form you describe as the smuggling form (solid or granules) stick to clothing for extended periods of time? The next question would be is it possible he was carrying small packets or such on his person on these trips? I know that would be hard to believe.
I too think that the dark haired, central Aisan looking man is the Chechen connection. As to his reference as an former KGB/FSB agent, well he could have just jumped sides.
AJ,
I’m not sure you need two runs of PO to indicate two discrete poisonings. If the PO signature is like other poisons, a spike of toxin levels would affect the hair. Litvinenko could have shown a poisoning in mid-Oct, his hair would grow out for two weeks, and then show another round on or about Nov 1. I doubt this sort of evidence would be detailed to the extent of showing different production runs of PO.
Gotta Know,
Radiation posioning is not like chemical poisoning (arsenic). Po-210 has a signature that defines where and when it was processed. If the sample has two different signatures that is important. My understanding of radiation poisoning is it DOES NOT leave a biological signature (that is why they use a urine test and not a hair sample). Po-210 is not likely to bind into proteins and become a biological structure – it would tend to kill off things.
That was why I commented on Jerry and his bone ring theory.
” Po-210 is not likely to bind into proteins…”
I think you mean that this is your unsubstantiated guess.
” Litvinenko was exposed more than twice to Po-210″
errr, that is not even what the story says. There may have been two attempts to poison Litvinenko; that doesn’t mean that the first attempt managed to get anywhere near him. In fact, we know that Litvinenko was not radioactive on the morning of November 1; so we know he was only poisoned once.
per