Mar 15 2007
I Might Have Hired An Undocumented Worker
Update: Well, to get this post back on track let me now add the details about the man I hired to do the work who could easily be an undocumented worker. He was courteous beyond reproach. He worked diligently and did all he could to let us live around his efforts. He called when he was coming and when he was not coming. And sadly for his family, he had to deal with one of his granddaughters being tested and a spot found on her liver. The man was a proud good man, an asset to our community. He was doing right by us and his family.
If he was an undocumented worker, and I don’t know one way or the other, then I am all for him staying as long has he repays any back taxes he owes. And he and the other nearly 1 million who could be here legally and causing no harm at all are not the issue or a priority for this country. As I pointed out in my previous post the hard right has no more voice on this issue – thankfully. And the math shows why. With a population that is over 5 times our current prison population we will not be brow beating these people into submission. We don’t have the resources. And I for one will not sanction one law enforcement hour being wasted on the likes of the man I hired for a few small jobs when we have people like Bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed actively trying to murder us. We do not have infinite resources and I do not have infinite patience with diversions. Never again will this country be held hostage to hot heads who want to chase workers without documents instead of terrorists with bombs. Because it is a trade off – we cannot do both. If that means letting inept liberals win elections for a while – oh well, that may be the price we pay to not get diverted. But when the right and their plans to redeploy our forces to the border compete with Murtha to redeploy our forces to Okinawa – this country is on a full spectrum slide down the tubes. – end update
So folks understand how much of a diversion trying to use punishment and force to deal with the illegal immigrant problem will be on our nation’s resources I offer myself up as an example. I might have hired an undocumented worker – I honestly don’t know one way or the other. This example will come in two parts. First I will tell my side, and then I will tell folks – later – what I know about the man who worked in my house for a good part of a week.
We needed some small work done inside our house. The twins had us scrambling for the last 7 years (not to mention the teenager graduating from high school and the one graduating from college). My parents live near us and since they are in their mid 80’s we spend a lot of our free time helping them out. I am not complaining, just setting the context. So we looked around for someone we could trust. We tried last year to get the outside of the house painted and we contracted with a guy who was working in a neighbor’s house and was highly recommended. Good ‘ol boy – true blue American.
He was also on the verge of financial ruin and took my $800 dollar deposit with him after he spent time power washing a good portion of the paint of the top eaves of my house. I have never found this jerk, but we were not going to repeat our mistake. So we found this older man from someplace south of the border who came highly recommended. His accent was thick so there was no doubt he was an immigrant. He asked for us to buy the materials and he would only charge us when he was done to our satisfaction. We broke the work up into stages to see how he did. He was great. He was not bonded or insured (and he wasn’t doing anything I could not fix myself). He was highly recommended and he proved to be as good as his reputation.
So the American (who was hiring immigrants to do the work for him anyway) that was bonded and insured ripped me off $800 dollars and the immigrant (legal or not – I still don’t know) did great work for a great price. Now I have no time or way to check the man’s status – something the Bush plan would put in place. But to be honest I would use him again because, as with all things in life, once you find someone who you trust and value you stick with them. Now, how much time should the Federal government spend on me and the guy who installed a few ceiling fans in my house while al Qaeda agents and sympathizers try to kill thousands of Americans? Folks know my answers. Next installment I will tell you what I learned of this man who worked in my house for a few days.
AJ
Tom Terrific will be knocking at your door soon demanding that you “repent” by giving him a campaign contribution.
But seriously, all homeowners face this problem all the , and frankly even if you care you can’t find an American worker to do small jobs around the house, at any pay. Some of this is that it’s hard to build a business model around hit or miss jobs, especially after you pay all the payroll taxes, workers compensation and all the other hidden costs.
There’s also the problem of legitimate businesses that hire legal workers, they go out of business due to facing competition against businesses that pay no taxes and hire illegals. After legal real businesses fail, the only labor force available is the illegal off the books kind.
It’s a tough tough problem and one that can only be fixed by a comprehensive immigration reform program that includes Federal, State and Local authority and some form of secure ID that allows verification of authorization to work in this country .
Tom Terrific and the Fortress America crowd don’t want to talk about these hard facts, they just want to “Round them up, send them home”.
AJ, having totally remodeled a 105 yr. old home, I understand what you are saying. But you also made some mistakes. Unless your house is the size of John Edwards’, $800 for a power wash is just too damn much.
I acted as the prime contractor for all our home remodeling. When it came time to get the house painted, 105 years of old paint had to be removed to get a satisfactory paint job that would last more than one blistering summer. It was a hugh job. So I drew up a contract and divided the work in three sections: paint removal; primer coats (2) and top coats (2). The painter and I agreed on a price and he was paid as each section was completed. He knew if he didn’t finish the section, he didn’t get paid.
NEVER PAY A DEPOSIT FOR WORK NOT YET DONE.
We had a major project. Due to the age of the home it required all new plumbing, all new wiring, old sheet rock removed and replace and hardwood flooring installed and the addition of a second floor. Since I was the primary contractor, I considered the construction guys that were working as my temporary employees. I also felt I had the right to know who they were, where they were from and if they were legal. When the carpenters showed up, one of them spoke no English. I had told the cheif carpenter that I did not want any illegals working at my home so I ask for the man’s I.D.
You have the right to do that. They are under your employ.
I am sorry you found one ‘legal’ bad apple. But I know where you are going with this story. Yes, there are good, hard working people here that are “illegal”. But for everyone of them, there is the people who are not good, hardworking.
So while you are forming your “poor illegal immigrant” story remember this: you would not be able to do the same thing in Mexico as you would wind up in jail for being in that nation without permission.
LOL! R05,
The powerwash was prior to the exterior painting. The point is the guy didn’t even make it through that before he ran for the hills. He had contracted on a house to do a paint job, hired a crew and told them to get the paint and do the job. They got the wrong paint and he had to redo the entire job. Apparenlty that is all it took to sink him.
BTW, I don’t live in Mexico – I live in Herndon, VA. I can’t do a lot of things in a lot of places I can do here.
Duh? Power washing BEFORE painting? Who knew?
Come on, AJ, do you have to indicate that you think I am so stupid that I didn’t know that? Your mistake was paying the guy before the work was completed. That was the point I was making. You don’t pay your mechanic before he repairs your car, why would you pay a painter before he did a job.
If you hire a contractor for a complete paint job, he should be able to cover the cost of the materials and his workers wages OUT OF HIS POCKET before you pay him, just like the mechanic covers the cost of the auto part before you pay him.
So if he had to eat a job because he did not stay on top of it, that is his own fault. The fact that you paid him $800.00 as deposit money should have told you this guy was on shaky financial ground to begin with. You also said he was bonded and assuming you were smart enough to get a receipt for your $800.00, you can claim your loss against his bonding company.
“BTW, I don’t live in Mexico – I live in Herndon, VA. I can’t do a lot of things in a lot of places I can do here.”
That is my very point.
You got took because you did not do your homework. You lost $800.00 (which can be reclaimed from the bonding company) because you trusted someone. That is bad business policy. And any contractor who asks you for a deposit is not someone you want to hire in the first place.
I have totally remodeled three homes. I generally hire contractors for labor only. I want to buy the materials because I get better quality and I save on the materials up-charge that contractors charge for going to get the materials. I have remodeled these homes to turn a profit (having bought the home and then re-selling it).
Here are some hints when hiring work to be done on your home:
Make sure they are bonded and ask for a copy of the bonding certificate.
If required in your area, ask for a copy of their license.
If the work is a small job, draw up a contract for labor and materials, with them to be paid at the end of the job.
If the work is a large job (as a total house painting), draw up a contract and divide the work into sections, i.e. power washing and removal of chipping paint; primer and top coat, paying a pre-determined amount at the end of each step.
If you live in a state where a verbal agreement is not a legal and binding contract, without a contract you have no recourse.
As far as the guy sinking over a bad job, oh well, he at least had your $800.00 and I am sure he is now looking for other clients just like you.
R05,
What is it about you and your arrogance. It was a down payment to pay for materials – a fraction of the work to be done. There was more than painting (wood repair). Sorry I opened up the conversation paths with you – clearly a big mistake. Your are a superior being in your own mind. And contract or not, the guy is broke and there is a line of people trying to get what they can out of him. Stop pretending you have all the answers – I didn’t provide the details about the jerk who ripped me off.
AJ, I am not being arrogant. I am telling you what I, as a primary contractor myself, knows about dealing with contractors.
Have I ever hired a sub that was substandard? Hell, yes. What I am trying to tell you is that NO REPUTABLE contractor ever asks for material costs, up front.
And why are people lining up to get money out of the dishonest painter if he was bonded? Their claim would be against the company that bonded the painter in the first place. That is the purpose of being bonded.
Excuse me if I tried to educate you on the perils of hiring contractors. I am sure that the lesson you learned from a bad painter taught you more than you are willing to let me teach you from my experience.
I spend a lot of time trying to educate older people on the perils of hiring contractors. It saves them heartbreak and lots of money.
Sorry that your arrogance will not permit you to take a little advise from someone who has earned a pretty good nest egg hiring contractors.
But not being the hardass that you want to be, I will offer you two pieces of advise:
contact the bonding company to regain your lost $800.00
file a complaint with the agency that gives painter’s licenses in your area.
Notify the Chamber of Commerce and file a complaint.
Notify the Better Business Bureau and file a complaint.
Do those things and you should be able to accomplish two things:
retrieve you lost money and put the guy out of business so he cannot rip someone else off.
Oh, and adjust your attitude. My trying to help you is not arrogance.
R05,
I know how to deal with contractors, as much as you. And I was a professional painter for years in college. Your arrogance was making assumptions because I did not go into details. The guy IS out of business and with a list of creditors, etc he owes money to. You are naive to think I can get blood from that turnip – we looked into it completely. As I said, I wish I had never offered to reopen discussions with you.
AJ, if you took all the steps to protect yourself from a bad contractor, well, then, good on you. But what is it about you, with me, that you cannot accept the fact than instead of being arrogant, I was trying to be helpful?
But once again, trying to be helpful to you is like putting a sweater on a pig; it is a lesson in futility and it irritates the pig.
I think AJStrata’s point for this post is something else other than a bad apple.
Lurker, I was trying to be helpful, making suggestions on how AJ could retrieve his lost $800.00. But it seems that although AJ has no problem with Carol_Herman making comparisons between American Indians and terrorists, he takes offense at my trying to help him.
And yes, it is now apparent that AJ’s post is just another in his long history of “illegals are good for America” diatribe.
Suggestion: since President Calderon admitted that at least half of the 4 million people from his home state in Mexico are now in the United States, why don’t we adopt the Mexican policy toward illegals?
I understand what you’re saying.
Re: Illegals…if Calderon’s intent is to get his people to stay in Mexico, I’m for it. They need to start thinking about private property.
Lurker, I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to the Mexican’s government’s stance on illegals entering THEIR nation.
Sorry. I wasn’t sure what you meant. It’s time for USA to start recording everyone entering our country, whatever that recording method is. Green cards, Visas, etc. When those expire without renewal, tell them that they need to go back home.
AJ
That man was your employee, he was not a contractor. You are responsible for withholding taxes out of his paycheck and also paying the employers share of his taxes. Your insurance, if you had a workmen’s compensation rider, would have had to pay for him falling off a ladder or stepping on a nail because he was neither bonded or insured. I hope you were paying him a living wage so that he could pay for the doctor and hospital when they treated his grand daughter’s bad liver. I would hate to think that your local hospital has to absorb the bill for treating her illness.
Things aren’t what they seem sometimes are they.
You really need to drop this illegal immigration thing. It is making you crazy you need some separation. I think that is the reason you were rude to R05, by the way, he didn’t deserve it.
“$800 for a power wash is just too damn much.”
I lived in Fairfax County, VA for a while. You would be lucky to get a burger for $800. At least at the time I lived there (mid to late 1980’s) it was one of the most expensive places to live in the country. A shoeshine would probably run you $50 … and I am exaggerating only a little.
AJ,
I work in Herndon but live out west a bit. For every “good” illegal there are one or two that are not. Unfortunately there are both “good ol boys” and immigrants that will rip you off without thinking twice about it. Yes, I am sure that they are many good hearted people that have come across which will have a positive impact on our society. How do we effectively deal with the negative element? That in my opinion is the question that we as a nation, must resolve.
Joe, I live in San Jose, California. I would say that there are probably 20 good ones here to every bad one. The illegal immigrant communities are actually more likely to be crime victims here than perps. Other groups know they will be afraid to go to the police and report the crime.
San Jose has a very large immigrant community, many of whom got here using “unconventional” means. It also has the lowest crime rate of any city its size in the country. Most (probably close to 90%) illegals here are hard working families who go to church on Sunday.
Joe,
Don\’t be silly with your stats. The crime rate is not 66% for immigrants. The crime rate MAY be 15-20%, which would make it sky high compared to any other group in the country. But it is not 2-1, and it is that kind of over the top rhetoric that shows this is all about some warped vengeance. Exaggeration can only exist when emotion takes over. [note: sorry Joe, shouldn\’t have laid my frustrations at your feet. We can focus on the criminal portion if we can get comprehensive reform and get the ones who are not bad to step forward and work in the open. I am for one strike you are out and for paying their home countries to incarcerate them (saves us money all around). Again, sorry for my over the top rhetoric – AJStrata]
Bucky, I plan to continue puting this subject up front and center through 2008 in order to make sure it gets addressed. The fact is we need security and we need workers documented and we need to engage the 10 million or so here who are not doing anything wrong except working without paper work and not paying taxes to get it done. And I plan to keep pointing out the futility of the ideas pushed by the hard right. They are not for security because if they were they would acknowledge the scope of the problem and start dealing in realistic solutions instead of demogaguery.
And I will do what I can to make sure those views remain marginal, minority views so we can get some thing accomplished. There is a war on and we need to get serious, and if those on the left or right try and divert our nation\’s attention I will speak up. Count on it.
retire05 ,
I’ve stayed away for a few days because of AJ’s attitude toward people who just may have some knowledge to pass on. Instead of saying, Gee, Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that, or gee, maybe I’ll look into that, you get put down. I only came back today to see if there were any good comments on Plames Testimony today. He has nothing on it. But when looking, I saw this, and went to see the comments. I thought you were trying to be helpful and provide info. Guess I’m wrong.
Best of luck to you RETRO in the Future.
R05,
I take SteveVVS words to heart and I apologize for my reaction. Suffice it to say I did not like getting ripped off in the least and I am still angry over the amount of money I lost. It was not right to take it out on you and I clearly misread what you were trying to do.
My bad. – AJStrata