Apr 29 2007
Catholic Church Idiocy
I know I am going to get a hit on my site visits and some heat from my conservative friends but one thing I cannot abide is people selecting one form of human life as valued and another as not. And when it comes from the Catholic Church I am totally disgusted. We have a new massive Church in Loudoun County which I had hoped would bring inspiration and enlightenment. Instead it has brought bigotry and bias.
We have twins, and through that we have become associated a club that is for mothers (and parents) of multiples. It is an important support network on how to deal with all the challenges that come with multiples. Many people with multiples come to that reality by In Vitro Fertilization (IVF). These people looked to science to help them bring love and joy to their lives, and to bring a life into this world. The fact they have more than one blessing never seems to bother these wonderful people.
So when I heard this new church was not recognizing IVF children I was simply stunned. This insanity is the worse than the insanity that pushed my out of the Church in the first place. I could never abide the relegation of women to second class existence. It just irks me no end. Now the Church is compounding this madness with the denial of these good kids. Does that mean these kids cannot be saved? They cannot be confirmed or baptized?
Sorry folks, this is ridiculous. The families of IVF kids are being singled out and ostricized because they brought life into this world in a slightly altered manner than most couples. The biology is exactly the same. The act of creation is the same, it is just happening in different environment. All this news has done for me is remind me why I left the Church and why that was not a bad idea in the end. Women and children of IVF are not lower class life forms.
And there is no way to take a moral stand on abortions of convenience or embryonic stem cell research while ignorantly claiming a IVF child is any different than if they were conceived in the womb (which they are NOT – the same sperm and egg produce the same child womb or in vitro). This is wrong. Scientifically and morally wrong.
People don’t seem to believe me this is a Church-wide view. See here and here and here:
A pastor I know has within the past couple of years baptized at least one set of multiple-birth babies resulting from IVF. Although the birth of children is a cause for joy, and receiving those children into the Church is an example of bringing good out of evil, there is a real danger of scandal in such circumstances. Frankly, when triplets or quads result from fertility drugs or IVF, there is no keeping the secret. If, then, the Church is seen as welcoming the children into the world, many will wrongly infer that there is no moral problem with IVF.
This is wrong – and I don’t care how you slice it. Attempts at pregnancy result in death all the time. The combination doesn’t take because it had a flawed result. Now procedures are being developed to eliminate the need for multiple embryos, so there will not have to be unborn embryos. But the same selection process that terminates a genetic disaster works in IVF as normal pregnancies. Again, the child created is EXACTLY the same under either scenario because the DNA dictates the form of the raw individual (which life experiences further molds). So a genetically defective result will not survive in either case. Biology 101.
This doesn’t make sense. Time for you to find another church.
AJ – tell me you’re kidding me. By saying the Catholic church “does not recognize” IVF children – do you mean they refuse to include IVF’s in sacraments like communion? And thereby – in theory – withhold salvation??
I know one thing – John XXIII never would have signed off on that deal, and its really hard to believe that this is the doctrine of the church – even with Benedict at the helm. Could this be some diocesan level rule that has been misapplied?
Soothie,
Your ignorance knows no bounds. I gather you know how to Google “IVF, Catholic Church”? If not ask an adult to help you out.
Lurker,
I don’t belong to a Church. These are the stories we are hearing about this place and we are hearing it from all the IVF parents.
Ah, I see. 🙂
And what’s next…adopted children? Test tube babies?
Have the IVF parents filed a petition or protest against this church?
AJ – if the Catholic church doesn’t refuse sacraments – then what’s the big deal?? They’ve been against birth control – with the exception of the rhythm method – for years. That was pretty idiotic, too.
How specifically are the families being singled out and ostricized.
You might want to learn to recognize snark when you see it.
AJstrata, OT, what do you think of the new army “Grizzly”? Seems that the democrats are holding up the funds for this new program. It appears to be far better than our Humvees. Fox News is going to cover it in a few.
1. Is the Catholic church using Grizzlys against IVF families?
2. Like we need this vehicle from Blackwater, whose production capacity is “one vehicle per day”?
3. Sounds like a naked grab for defense dollars.
Grizzly is an OT topic. You sure don’t understand what “OT” mean?
AJ, I think you need to step back at take a look at the whole picture. Because you disagree with one segment (basically a few priests) of the Church doesn’t mean that you have to give up YOUR faith. Like all things, the Church is subject to the personal beliefs of those in it. I may not agree with the good Archbishop from San Antonio on his stand on illegal immigration. That doesn’t mean that I will cease to be a Catholic or stop attending Mass. The last time I checked, my purpose for going to Mass was to further my relationship with God, not with the priest or bishop who was saying it.
You do not agree with all the policies of some politicians in Washington. Does that mean that you no longer have faith in your government, your nation? Does that mean that you are going to cease being an American?
Nothing, including any religion, is perfect. It will not conform to every belief you might hold. No, I don’t agree with this stand on IVF. But I also do not agree with the Church’s stand on the war in Iraq, illegal immigration or a number of other things.
I can understand why you are upset. But the Church is simply a means to worship God, not as is Islam, a total way of life.
I am sorry for the pain the catholic church has caused you and your family, AJ. Their assumptions are ridiculous, in my humble opinion. it makes me really angry to hear of this.
And, imho, you know what is right and best in your heart, not the flawed institution, with no disrepect intended to the catholic church.
I believe this is a perfect example of one of the major problems I have with many organized religions. If Catholics have a problem with IVF, fine, don’t do it. But it isn’t the place for the human being to pass judgement, that is God’s role. All too often I see people taking it upon themselves to play God. If having IVF children is going to damn you to hell, then there is nothing any human being here is going to be able to do about that one way or the other, is there? Admitting them or not admitting them or associating or not associating isn’t going to damn the REST of the congregation to hell. They are simply taking it upon themselves to punish someone in order to make themselves feel morally superior.
Now look at it from the child’s perspective. The only difference as far as they are concerned is the fertilization venue. They are still a product of their mother and father. There is no test you can give someone to prove where fertilization took place. They are still just as much of a person as anyone else. they are not responsible for how they were fertilized.
People need to look into their own lives and their own hearts and when they are absolutely perfect, then maybe we can begin to talk about passing judgement like this on others. Until that time comes, there are real problems that need addressing. This isn’t one of them. It is part of a superiority dance some people feel a need to play.
I think Crosspatch pretty much nailed it, but I’d still like to add my two cents worth about organized religion. My wife and I both grew up devout Methodists, in the same church. A combination of unrelated events drove us away over 20 years ago. I saw people with whom I worshiped every Sunday deliberately cheat on their spouses, cheat their business partners, their employees, their customers, and then come to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness. I saw a church that put way too much emphasis on how much money people gave to the church as well as who gave and who didn’t, but the coup de gras was when our 12-year-old daughter was molested by a Sunday School teacher. The whole experience still didn’t shake my faith in God, just my faith in people.
Does all human life have the same value? It’s a little off the theme you are talking about (IVF) but, let me ask this question:
Suppose a kindly old great grandmother, that has never harmed anyone, has raised several children who each have several children. All them love their grandma and great grandma very much. One day she takes a bus to Church and it just so happens a suicide bomber blows up that bus.
Does the life of those two people, the (great) grandma and the suicide bomber have the same value?
Not to me.
But the value to you or me doesn’t matter. Anyhow you are talking about two different things. In the case of your analogy you are talking about someone who is a direct threat to the security of the community who is not deterred by the threat of losing their life in order to kill others. In that case the notion that they should be killed before they have the chance to kill isn’t a moral one. That person has already chosen to die, all that has changed is the circumstances. I would have no problem killing that suicide bomber before he is able to complete his deed if the opportunity presented itself. I would not be passing judgment. I would be protecting my community.
Aside from that, as for judgment, yes, I would believe God would judge them differently but I can not be sure. Was that old woman really the perpetrator of a murder 40 years ago and never caught? Only God knows.
Was that old woman really the perpetrator of a murder 40 years ago and never caught? Only God knows.
I set up the scenario and I said “she had never harmed a soul”
and I said we were looking at a completely diff situation. But the question at issue was…. “but one thing I cannot abide is people selecting one form of human life as valued and another as not.”
so, is the suicide bomber’s ‘human’ life the same value as the old grandma or not?
That’s the only question….
I say no……
.
If the pastor is not baptizing IVF children the you must go to your bishop. What did you mean by not recognizing? The Catholic Church DOES care and fight for human souls. No matter how they were conceived the kids have a right to be baptized. If a priest is doing that, he is erring and YOU NEED TO BE THE VOICE OF ENLIGHTENMENT. It needs to be brought up. Bring it to your parish council, that what they are there for. That does NOT happen in my parish. I have never heard of that happening. Also, the Church beef with IVF has to do with the fertilized embryos that ALL have souls. Say you implant two, then what happens to the rest. You destroy them. The Church say protect life IN ALL it’s stages. EVERY ONE has the right to live. That’s the issue.