May 18 2007
Guest Worker Program Success
Addendum: It seems that all across the right side of the blogoshpere the sky is falling! LOL!. I am so glad I am an independent. Hysterics over documenting undocumented workers is the exact kind of reaction I said would marginalize the right. The far right has officially jumped the shark. The far left has too. And contrary to the doom and gloomers, America will survive and we will elect serious leaders with serious ideas and prosper. Enough already with “the end of the world” wailing. You folks bet the farm and lost. Get over it. – end update
Yes, I know many on the right feel the effort to bring the immigrant workers out into the open and under a more controlled program is tantamount to treason, but I just cannot share these “Drama Queen” fears. And I know my visits will take another hit (as they always do when I post on my support for Bush’s plans for immigration) but so be it. The fact is the Rep Congress had their little test of wills and lost. And now that they do not run Congress Bush is able to do what he needs to get this needed program going. And from what I see it is pretty good plan (not everything I wanted, but I never expected to get what I wanted):
The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.
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The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so- called “point system” that would for the first time prioritize immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.
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The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a “Z visa” and—after paying fees and a $5,000 fine—ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.
They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.
These features (and many more the media is just not reporting on) will deal with the 12 million illegal workers here now (and presumably who have some significant time in – like 2 years minimum). The entire national security component of this plan is to separate those associated with the minor infractions (working without proper papers) from those who are violent criminals and terrorists. Finding a needle in a haystack (the terrorists) is not hard when most of the hay will walk up and move out of the way so you can deal with the bad stalks and the needle you need to find ASAP. This is why those interested in National Security support Bush’s plan because it is the best balance of dealing with the compounded issues involved with illegal immigrants. The plan optimizes and expedites this separation process.
And for new workers the program is really reasonable all the way around
A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called “triggers” had been activated.
Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.
This is clearly not amnesty. With a fine and back taxes, and limited immigrant worker time and opportunity to stay permanently this is light years ahead of what we have now. I am looking forward to having my prediction come true. And while I will warn my friends on the right not to get all aggitated and angry and spewing names at people who don’t agree with them, sadly I know they will not listen. The anger on the right over this issue is as mindless as the anger on the left over the 2000 election. Logic will not penetrate it. But by the same token, the moderates in America will not tolerate disrespectful and demeaning attacks. So that fastest way to marginalism is to rant and rave about what was an obvious result of the far right’s attack on Bush – which started with Harriet Miers. Many times I predicted we would lose the next three years of the conservative agenda over the civil war the far right started with Miers (see here and here). The far right went from Miers onto Schiavo onto Immigration – and they lost the conservative agenda for 3 years – as I predicted.
I am fairly positive there will not only be hesitency, but outright resistence to the far right if they react in the same fashion which put them on the sidelines in 2006. The Immigration solution is well balanced. It is not driven by partisan ideology but by pragmatic prioritization. It is not out to ‘win’ but to pogress. And anyone who lashes out in anger because the ‘pure’ did not win out over the ‘best’ is going to get shunned. OK, I have given my warning. I am glad to see this success come about in the middle of the battle of partisan wills over Iraq. It shows some semblence of seriousness we have been missing for over year in DC.
AJ, which of the three proposals do you think had the most merit?
The old House plan (pre Nov. ’06), the old Senate plan (pre Nov. ’06), or the plan that just passed the House this week?
hehe..You are such a martyr AJ.
Hey this is great…now we convert the 20 million illegals here into the legal workforce we have now priced them out of the marketplace. Great job! Now we have 20 million more Americans or nearly so who aren’t doing the jobs Americans want because they are being priced out of the market.
Guess we are going to have to import 20 million more illegals so Tyson foods and Mohawk Fabrics won’t go out of business.
Congrats to the Kennedy Republicans and Bush Democrats for a bill that puts into poverty 20 million folks. Well done.
And isn’t odd how when the Republicans were in power they could not get any important bills passed because of deadlock now with the Democrats in power deadlock is gone. Wow.
The reason for hiring Mexicans and other Latinos is the same as it’s been for well over one hundred years – they work cheaper than gringoes. They are invited into the country to be exploited. That said, we still have to have some measure of control over our borders, a right asserted by most of the nations of the World. And we also have to protect the rights of those who are here legally. It’s a big order.
Maybe they will work cheaper but the thing is we have a doggone low unemployment rate. It doesn’t get much lower than it is right now on a sustainable basis. If we don’t allow the cheap labor on to follow the jobs, then the jobs will leave to go where the cheap labor is.
The reason we never saw Ross Perot’s “giant sucking sound” of jobs exiting the US was because the cheap labor was here. They didn’t need to move. If you cut that supply of labor off, you are going to see a lot of traditional US businesses like cattle ranching and meat packing go south of the border. A lot of the other farming operations will too.
Those laborers still rent apartments and houses. They still buy cokes at the corner store. If they leave, at least in my area, entire neighborhoods are going to disappear and the businesses that support those neighborhoods will go away too.
The overall reaction from the Republican blogosphere has really disappointed me. Hugh Hewitt in particular who I think normally has his head on straight. I might just have to change my party affiliation to Independent because I think both the Democrats and Republicans are becoming moronic.
How much would it cost to build a coast to coast border fence? And what if a group of drug dealers on the other side has billions of dollars to use to tear it down as fast as it is built?
We could build a fence but we would have to keep building it over and over and over forever.
The MSM is already putting stories out there about how the fine and the hoops the illegals will have to jump through are too much to ask. ..sad stories about having to feed families back home will stop them from paying fine. Pretty soon the US taxpayers will pay the fine for them because it is our fault they are illegal not theirs.
The border security has been minimalized and this new bill guarantees union wages for illegals – the unions have their clause in the bill thanks to the Dems. This bill will begin to get watered down and soon you won’t be able to tell the difference between this bill and the last Senate bill.
Already Rep senators are getting peppered by constituents – Cornyn is coming out against it and has amendments ready to go. He says that he was once part of the core group that was writing this beast of a bill but was asked to leave since he disagreed with what they were putting together.
Romney and Thompson came out against this bill already. McCain can kiss any chance of a presidential nomination good-bye unless the Dems and the MSM are the voters.
I agree that we need to secure our borders and that includes more than just the border with Mexico. But if there is an easy work permit program, there will be fewer crossing outside of controlled crossing points. Also, when their work is done in the US, they will be able to go home after the off season and come back the following spring. We need both. A more secure border and a way for legitimate workers to EASILY cross back and forth so they don’t need to sneak.
So far as I can tell, all this bill gives them is a work permit. They would STILL need to get in line behind the legitimate immigrants for permanent residence (green card). This bill isn’t an “amnesty” in that it, as far as I can tell, offers nothing other than a work permit. Reagan’s bill gave them all green cards. This one wont.
Those laborers still rent apartments and houses. They still buy cokes at the corner store. If they leave, at least in my area, entire neighborhoods are going to disappear and the businesses that support those neighborhoods will go away too.
Perhaps you don’t understand the way this process works but as soon as those folks you are worrying about are legal their worth will plummet. They won’t be able to work below minimum wage, they won’t be able to work under unsafe conditions (think Tyson and Mohawk who were prosecuted for that), they will be just as expensive as the regular gringo now because the businesses will be forced to buy health insurance for them…no more flying under the radar. All of a sudden those brilliant idiots in the Bush Administration will have created another lower class. Brilliant…they just seem to be clueless about anything involving complex thought.
At the end of the day the current illegals will be replaced by a new wave of illegals. Meant to replace the current ones as they move to becoming Americans who won’t do the jobs illegals are able to do.
If we were really worried about filling those jobs Americans won’t do we would simply remove all minimum wage laws, health insurance laws, workplace safety laws and all the rest of the programs that price legal workers out of the job market.
This is simple stuff and its an indication of the state of the education system in the United States that no one gets it.
At least they will all be recorded.
I dont buy that argument. I know plenty of people born and raised in this country who work under the table. And what makes you think they work for less than minimum wage? Just TRY going around to a Home Depot around here and pick up a casual laborer for under $10 an hour. You can’t do it. You will be lucky to find one for 12-15.
Heck, McDonalds pays over $10/hour around where I live.
Illegals around here work mostly as skilled manual labor such as construction, roofing, drywall, painting. There is some unskilled in landscaping and janitorial. They have all the right documents. You can buy a social security card at the flea market. As far as the employer is concerned, they are legal workers as they show up with all the right documents.
They sure as heck aren’t working for minimum wage. The jobs they are taking are the jobs that were tradtionally taken by 16 to 20 year olds. Kids don’t want to work these days or aren’t worth the trouble to hire them in many cases. The foreigners show up every day and work hard.
I am happy for the President today. This has been a long time coming and very needed.
“Illegals around here work mostly as skilled manual labor such as construction, roofing, drywall, painting. ”
Those are not skilled jobs. This bill is not a “guest worker” bill, as A.J. states. It’s a bill to confer legal status on people who came here illegally. And it will encourage millions more to do the same. I don’t understand why so many people are willing to undercut Americans who are here legally.
“Illegals around here work mostly as skilled manual labor such as construction, roofing, drywall, painting. ”
Those are not skilled jobs. This bill is not a “guest worker” bill, as A.J. states. It’s a bill to confer legal status on people who came here illegally. And it will encourage millions more to do the same. I don’t understand why so many people are willing to undercut Americans who are here legally.
“Illegals around here work mostly as skilled manual labor such as construction, roofing, drywall, painting. ”
Those are not skilled jobs. This bill is not a “guest worker” bill, as A.J. states. It’s a bill to confer legal status on people who came here illegally. And it will encourage millions more to do the same. I don’t understand why so many people are willing to undercut Americans who are here legally.
Apologies for the multiple posts.
What does this do for legal immigrants who are awaiting a reply on their status? If they get denied can they then become illegal and apply for this? Or will they get fast tracked since they are doing it the legal way?
Scaulen,
Previous version of this (and I assume this version) would not allow any “newbies” to jump in front of those already in the process.
Dubious,
I like this one because it will pass! Perfection was never my goal. Separating illegal immigrants from terrorists is my #1 priority.
Today I walked out to my car to go to work and discovered something beautiful. Mexican grafitti all over our sidewalks and the sides of my apartment complex. I have been living here for over ten years, and have seen nothing of this here. This is no barrio. I live in Point Loma CA which is by any means a fairly affluent neighborhood. And what a fitting piece of news to end the day. Millions of more mexicans to add to the millions that are already here! I could just F**king scream!
By the way AJ. I heard a little story on Limbaughs show yesterday and I wanted to ask you if it was true. He said that there was a big spat about an illegals work depot set up there in Herndon VA, (your home town) and that all of the town council member suffered the same fate over it when the next election came. Do you remember what that fate was AJ? Because I thing the GOP is headed the same direction.
AJ, I’m going to ask these questions because they are good questions that REALLY need to be anwswered, so don’t get all peeved and bust my ass for being negative.
If a person who came here illegally goes back to Mexico and stays for a week and gets a work visa, then comes back and goes to work, and the person who went through the normal immigration channels waits for years to even get here, how is the second person in front of the line?
AJ, you mentioned a second program for farm workers. I am interested in this. Does this program have a provision to pay less than minimum wage? If not, are all of the farmers going to start paying more for these workers? Or will they just hire the new illegals who dont have a green card for less money? I ask this because one of the provisions of this bill is that the guest workers make UNION SCALE! How is that going to work. If guest workers have to make union scale, won’t it be cheaper again to hire REAL AMERICANS! Will this law establish a legal precedent that says not everyone is entitled to minimum wage, but foreigners are entitled to union scale. These are serious question AJ!
If we never enforced the border laws before, (other than half-heartedly), why should anyone believe we will now? Remember the fence bill that was signed by the President last year? That has already been tossed to the side and it hasn’t even been ONE DAMNED year yet!
How can we get people to pay back taxes on wages that are not recorded?
How can we possibly process twelve million immigrants through an orgainzation which has a hard time processing 50000 a year right now? My suspicion is that we are going to do the same thine we have done with the immigration court all this time and give them a slip to appear sometime in the distant future.
Heres a good one, when it turns out that almost all of the Mexican workers who put in for the guest worker plan have little or no education whatsoever, will they be told they can’t come, and if they are, does anyone really think they would stay there? Why are we not importing millions of Pakistanis and Indians with college degrees instead?
How long do you think it will be before the congress lowers the $5000 fine down to $5.00?
This bill is just a first step. If it passes, and I think there are enough treasonous asses in the congress for that to happen, the border will look like a city bus accident. One person is on the bus when it gets into an accident and by the time the ambulance gets there, it is full. If anyone planned on coming to the US illegally, now is the time to come! Since we cannot prove anything about these UNDOCUMENTED people, they can make up anything they want and this bill says we are just stupid enough to do that!
If this bill passes, the GOP is done!