May 18 2007
Guest Worker Program Success
Addendum: It seems that all across the right side of the blogoshpere the sky is falling! LOL!. I am so glad I am an independent. Hysterics over documenting undocumented workers is the exact kind of reaction I said would marginalize the right. The far right has officially jumped the shark. The far left has too. And contrary to the doom and gloomers, America will survive and we will elect serious leaders with serious ideas and prosper. Enough already with “the end of the world” wailing. You folks bet the farm and lost. Get over it. – end update
Yes, I know many on the right feel the effort to bring the immigrant workers out into the open and under a more controlled program is tantamount to treason, but I just cannot share these “Drama Queen” fears. And I know my visits will take another hit (as they always do when I post on my support for Bush’s plans for immigration) but so be it. The fact is the Rep Congress had their little test of wills and lost. And now that they do not run Congress Bush is able to do what he needs to get this needed program going. And from what I see it is pretty good plan (not everything I wanted, but I never expected to get what I wanted):
The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.
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The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so- called “point system” that would for the first time prioritize immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.
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The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a “Z visa” and—after paying fees and a $5,000 fine—ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.
They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.
These features (and many more the media is just not reporting on) will deal with the 12 million illegal workers here now (and presumably who have some significant time in – like 2 years minimum). The entire national security component of this plan is to separate those associated with the minor infractions (working without proper papers) from those who are violent criminals and terrorists. Finding a needle in a haystack (the terrorists) is not hard when most of the hay will walk up and move out of the way so you can deal with the bad stalks and the needle you need to find ASAP. This is why those interested in National Security support Bush’s plan because it is the best balance of dealing with the compounded issues involved with illegal immigrants. The plan optimizes and expedites this separation process.
And for new workers the program is really reasonable all the way around
A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called “triggers” had been activated.
Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.
This is clearly not amnesty. With a fine and back taxes, and limited immigrant worker time and opportunity to stay permanently this is light years ahead of what we have now. I am looking forward to having my prediction come true. And while I will warn my friends on the right not to get all aggitated and angry and spewing names at people who don’t agree with them, sadly I know they will not listen. The anger on the right over this issue is as mindless as the anger on the left over the 2000 election. Logic will not penetrate it. But by the same token, the moderates in America will not tolerate disrespectful and demeaning attacks. So that fastest way to marginalism is to rant and rave about what was an obvious result of the far right’s attack on Bush – which started with Harriet Miers. Many times I predicted we would lose the next three years of the conservative agenda over the civil war the far right started with Miers (see here and here). The far right went from Miers onto Schiavo onto Immigration – and they lost the conservative agenda for 3 years – as I predicted.
I am fairly positive there will not only be hesitency, but outright resistence to the far right if they react in the same fashion which put them on the sidelines in 2006. The Immigration solution is well balanced. It is not driven by partisan ideology but by pragmatic prioritization. It is not out to ‘win’ but to pogress. And anyone who lashes out in anger because the ‘pure’ did not win out over the ‘best’ is going to get shunned. OK, I have given my warning. I am glad to see this success come about in the middle of the battle of partisan wills over Iraq. It shows some semblence of seriousness we have been missing for over year in DC.
I’m not too concerned about the current bill, first it doesn’t even exist. If anyone thinks it does, provide a link to it so we can all read it.
Second, the sole purpose of the bill is so the Dimmycrats can claim they solved the illegal alien issue. (A lot of Republicans are trying to claim it, but it’s a Dimmycrat bill)
It’s strictly a feel good deal for a lot of do gooders. It’s never going to solve the illegal alien issue. No politicians even want to solve the issue. I’m not even sure if it’s remotely possible to solve the issue.
Let’s simplfy it: Suppose you decided to just try to start record keeping on all these illegals and passed a law that said, basically:
Everyone in the country illegally come forward and register with the US government. No charge. We will give you an ID card that says what your name is, that you are a citizen of XXX country and that you are only here to work, that it entitles you to work for current minimum wage and that you can come and go back and forth to your home country as long as you go thru checkpoints so we can keep track.
It would require you to file a Federal and State tax return each year and it would entitle you to exactly the same benefits that all other employees at the same place of employment get.
It would allow you to bring your immediate family with you. Limited to spouse and children only.
If you get convicted of any felony, you go back home permanently and if you get caught in the US after the felony conviction, you go to prison until you serve your term and then are deported again.
It would not grant any amnesty, it would not put anyone in line for citizenship. It would allow them to get in the same line as all other citizenship applicants and they would have to meet all the requirements that is currently required for citizenship.
Give all illegals 6 months to get registered. Anyone caught after the 6 month period not registered would be guily of a felony and would never be eligible.
Now who amongst you are foolish enough to think a system like that would ensure that everyone that is illegal would come forward?
No, the Dimmycrats only want votes, they don’t want a solution.
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Whatever is passed in this bill will be a temporary measure. The reason I say that is purely based on population numbers. As I said earlier by 2050 the projections are we will be a majority Hispanic country.
If legalized the fence that will never be built will be deferred. Perhaps we can vote out the ruling that the Reconquistas can take back their land area they so desire.
This is not a simple decision.
Did anyone notice that one of the consultants to this bill was the group “La Raza” and they haven’t even been elected, and have no standing in the legal sense.
This is not a simple issue and this bumb rush to judgment is absolutely the wrong path to take.
Merlin,
There were going to be issues no matter what we did. Looking at it that way, as Ed Morrissey pointed out, is to be for doing nothing.
Left by AJStrata on May 18th, 2007
In direct response to your comment, yes nothing would be better.
We have laws on the books we can already enforce if we so choose.
This new thing is nothing more than a coat hanger abortion of the first magnitude.
We have been here before and have reaped the consequences and if we pass this abortion then it will only get worse.
What do you think the “next” bill will look like?
As I have said earlier read the interactive blogs that exploded in comments.
Read even those who mostly have readers and suddenly commentors showed up.
To say that this legislation is the will of the people is total hogwash.
I just completed an extensive search for details of the bill. Can’t find any links. Wonder how the hell anyone can be for something or against it without having any details. Word of mouth info on this issue is worth somewhere between zero and zip.
You can’t believe much that is in print and even less when it’s not.
I don’t believe the bill even exists, I think it’s just talking points.
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Yesterday in Macarthur Park in LA, there was a protest rally against the LAPD because of the incident a couple of weeks ago when the police got into a fracas with the illegal immigrants who were protesting for their rights? as illegal immigrants. LA Mayor Antonio Villalagrosa and CA state assemblyman Fabio Nunez, (forgive me if I sound racist asking where the hell you think their allegience lies), attended the rally to protest against THEIR OWN COPS!
Can you see where this crap is taking us people? Do you think we need more of this?
Mexico is a corrupt, filthy, crime ridden toilet. Why do we need to bring that up here? Oh, I see, they will commit crimes americans won’t commit! All we do by allowing them to ignore our border and violate every damn law they can is to make the situation worse. We already have hundreds of immigration laws on the books and this POS president intentionally defies them! Now they want to pass even more lienient laws that they will not enforce. Brilliant!
Enforcement
Exactly my point earlier, they are not debating a proposed bill, they are debating and maybe even voting on a proposed framework that has yet to be set to paper. They haven’t looked or seen, their staff advisers haven’t had a chance to read and see. So far it’s all smoke and mirrors.
In most legislation the lawmakers have at least the text of the proposed bill and it is constantly updated with all the proposed amendments tacked on.
I have also check all the usual places and still have not found a version of the bill put forth.
That is the reason all my posts above said “it is reported”. This is still not anywhere I usually check if I want to go to the source document.
It’s a pure ghost unless someone slips it in before the Sunday talking head shows.
That doesn’t make for a very warm and fuzzy feeling.
I just went out and checked, and unless I missed it , I haven’t even seen a resolution number assigned to this bill.
I may be wrong and have missed it, but WTF is going on here.
Merlin, this thing is already on paper. It’s over 700 pages! They put this together behind closed doors, and are not releasing much to the public. I can gaurantee you there are a whole bunch of little surprises in here. They pushed this bill around the usual senate procedures and are going to try to shove it through before all of it hits the light of day.
“Nobody is saying t o “bring in†any at all.”
Not so. The proposal includes giving work visas to additional workers every year.
I think people are overlooking the fact that there is the possible and the impossible.
There is no way the hardliners are going to get what they want, whatever that is. I have been listening to them complain for a long time now and I still do not know exactly what it is they want. Mass deportations? A physical wall thousands of miles long? A law against any more hispanics coming into the country? Millions of people arrested and hauled off to jail?
Illegal entry classified as a felony so that cops will be so busy chasing down roofers and nannies they have no time for rapists? I honestly can not figure it out. People won’t stop screaming long enough to explain it. They say that identifying these people will be too complicated, but if you intend to deport them all, you will have to not only find them and identify them…you will have to apprehend them and detain them. Millions of them, men, women and children.
All I know is that my FORMER Congressman Hostettler was everything the far right said a good GOP person should be. He was a fiscal conservative, a small government guy and he was a very tough guy on immigration….and he got beat big time in the last election. And it was not Iraq that did him in either. He got beat by a moderate, rural Indiana is not SanFrancisco.
And look at Tencredo, he can not even get traction within the Republican party, outside the party he is viewed as the Republican Kucinich. And before him there was Buchanan… if people wanted Buchanan they should have voted for him. But they didn’t, did they?
The rightie blogs have overlooked the fact that they do not represent a majority, anymore than Kos does and they offer no alternative that actually has a chance of success. And without success, what the hell difference does any of it make? Might as well ignore the illegals if you are not going to try to come up with a compromise that has a snow ball’s chance of going through.
This bill does have triggers that put stricter enforcement first…and it has a merit system for legalization that includes language and skills. It is better than what we have now. It is better than the last bill and conservatives got some of what they wanted. If that is not good enough for them, well I guess we can just forget the whole damn thing.
People can say the GOP is finished if they pass this, but I think the opposite is true. If they kill with this without a viable alternative in mind they will become jokes, demagogues, incapable of compromise.
In fact I think the hissy fit they threw last summer had more to do with them losing the election in November than Iraq did and if they keep this up and promise to sit home etc they will accomplish nothing except to give the Democrats the super majority they need. And then the hardliners will find out what bad legislation really is. With that kind of majority the Democrats could over ride a veto from President Fred Thompson himself. So staying home, throwing tantrums, refusing to compromise, demanding the impossible is no way to govern.
And btw, these people are here because Americans hire them. People can treat them like an invading army but the truth is they are here because we let them in and often as not invited them in. Now we need to change that but it is not fair to act as if this problem appeared out of nowhere overnight. It has been decades in the coming.
Merlin:
Blogs are not representative. Most Americans do not even read them.
The other day I had a family member raving about immigrants and then I find out that he had a bunch of Mexicans working on his house. That is people for you.
Dennis:
400,000 is what the guest worker program calls for. This country has a population of 300 million. And these people have to go back after a couple of years.
Bikerken:
That is paranoid. They have been working on it for months and they have not finished it and they are releasing information now so that people can scream and yell and demand that we make it a law to shoot a wetback every day or whatever.
Terrye, I have heard it was done, they are going to start debate on it next week and I have heard it was over 700 pgs. Granted, My information could be wrong. But to think I’m paranoid to say they have been working on it behind closed doors and bypassing procedures, that information is just plain correct and has been reported on in several places from several sources including some congressmen.
You’re right about one thing though, we did pretty much invite them here, that invitation was called the Simpson Mizzole act. (The last immigration reform bill from 1986) That turned out real well, didn’t it. Gee, lets do it again!
Oh, and one other thing, That’s 400,000 EACH YEAR. And if you think they are going to go home after two years, I have some real estate in Mexico to sell you. Nobody’s there anymore, you can build as much as you want. 🙂
Here is the position paper from the White House via Ed Morrisey :
* Putting Border Security And Enforcement First: Border security and worksite-enforcement benchmarks must be met before other elements of the proposal are implemented.
* Providing Tools For Employers To Verify The Eligibility Of The Workers They Hire: Employers will be required to verify the work eligibility of all employees using an employment eligibility verification system, while all workers will be required to present stronger and more verifiable identification documents. Tough new anti-fraud measures will be implemented and stiff penalties imposed on employers who break the law.
* Creating A Temporary Worker Program: To relieve pressure on the border and provide a lawful way to meet the needs of our economy, the proposal creates a temporary worker program to fill jobs Americans are not doing. To ensure this program is truly “temporary,” workers will be limited to three two-year terms, with at least a year spent outside the United States between each term. Temporary workers will be allowed to bring immediate family members only if they have the financial ability to support them and they are covered by health insurance.
* No Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants: Illegal immigrants who come out of the shadows will be given probationary status. Once the border security and enforcement benchmarks are met, they must pass a background check, remain employed, maintain a clean criminal record, pay a $1,000 fine, and receive a counterfeit-proof biometric card to apply for a work visa or “Z visa.” Some years later, these Z visa holders will be eligible to apply for a green card, but only after paying an additional $4,000 fine; completing accelerated English requirements; getting in line while the current backlog clears; returning to their home country to file their green card application; and demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.
Terrye,
There is no way the hardliners are going to get what they want, whatever that is. I have been listening to them complain for a long time now and I still do not know exactly what it is they want. Mass deportations? A physical wall thousands of miles long? A law against any more hispanics coming into the country? Millions of people arrested and hauled off to jail?
what do they want? how about enforcing the laws of the country?
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terrye
This bill does have triggers that put stricter enforcement first…and it has a merit system for legalization that includes language and skills. It is better than what we have now. It is better than the last bill and conservatives got some of what they wanted. If that is not good enough for them, well I guess we can just forget the whole damn thing.
I guess you have a special insight in being allowed to see this bill in print. will you post a link so we can all read it? I can’t find it anywhere. Otherwise, how would you know what’s in it. Surely you’re not relying on hearsay are you? Please provide link….
Bikerken:
And if you think that sitting around and doing nothing but complaining month after month and demanding the impossible is going to make the situation better I have some jewelry to sell you.
Why is it that Newt Gingrich did not make securing the borders part of the Contract with America? I keep hearing how the base is demanding all this and yet this situation has been allowed to get to this place and no one, including conservatives did a damn thing about it. Back in 2000 Buchanan got less than 1% of the vote. Nadar got 4.6% of the vote. Now all of a sudden we are supposed to think that the entire base has turned into Buchanan.
The truth is that George Bush made his feelings plain when it came to issues like a guest worker program. He never lied about it or hid it or pretended that it was not his policy and yet now we are supposed to believe that he let us down in regards to this policy. It seems to me he has stayed the same, he is not the one who went off the deep end.
Not long ago a friend of mine refused to let her 16 year old son take a summer job for 6 bucks an hour clearing brush for some old guy who was trying to sell a place . She said he was worth more than that so he spent his summer watching TV. That kind of attitude is a problem we can not blame on Mexicans.