May 18 2007
Guest Worker Program Success
Addendum: It seems that all across the right side of the blogoshpere the sky is falling! LOL!. I am so glad I am an independent. Hysterics over documenting undocumented workers is the exact kind of reaction I said would marginalize the right. The far right has officially jumped the shark. The far left has too. And contrary to the doom and gloomers, America will survive and we will elect serious leaders with serious ideas and prosper. Enough already with “the end of the world” wailing. You folks bet the farm and lost. Get over it. – end update
Yes, I know many on the right feel the effort to bring the immigrant workers out into the open and under a more controlled program is tantamount to treason, but I just cannot share these “Drama Queen” fears. And I know my visits will take another hit (as they always do when I post on my support for Bush’s plans for immigration) but so be it. The fact is the Rep Congress had their little test of wills and lost. And now that they do not run Congress Bush is able to do what he needs to get this needed program going. And from what I see it is pretty good plan (not everything I wanted, but I never expected to get what I wanted):
The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.
…
The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so- called “point system” that would for the first time prioritize immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.
…
The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a “Z visa” and—after paying fees and a $5,000 fine—ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.
They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.
These features (and many more the media is just not reporting on) will deal with the 12 million illegal workers here now (and presumably who have some significant time in – like 2 years minimum). The entire national security component of this plan is to separate those associated with the minor infractions (working without proper papers) from those who are violent criminals and terrorists. Finding a needle in a haystack (the terrorists) is not hard when most of the hay will walk up and move out of the way so you can deal with the bad stalks and the needle you need to find ASAP. This is why those interested in National Security support Bush’s plan because it is the best balance of dealing with the compounded issues involved with illegal immigrants. The plan optimizes and expedites this separation process.
And for new workers the program is really reasonable all the way around
A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called “triggers” had been activated.
Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.
This is clearly not amnesty. With a fine and back taxes, and limited immigrant worker time and opportunity to stay permanently this is light years ahead of what we have now. I am looking forward to having my prediction come true. And while I will warn my friends on the right not to get all aggitated and angry and spewing names at people who don’t agree with them, sadly I know they will not listen. The anger on the right over this issue is as mindless as the anger on the left over the 2000 election. Logic will not penetrate it. But by the same token, the moderates in America will not tolerate disrespectful and demeaning attacks. So that fastest way to marginalism is to rant and rave about what was an obvious result of the far right’s attack on Bush – which started with Harriet Miers. Many times I predicted we would lose the next three years of the conservative agenda over the civil war the far right started with Miers (see here and here). The far right went from Miers onto Schiavo onto Immigration – and they lost the conservative agenda for 3 years – as I predicted.
I am fairly positive there will not only be hesitency, but outright resistence to the far right if they react in the same fashion which put them on the sidelines in 2006. The Immigration solution is well balanced. It is not driven by partisan ideology but by pragmatic prioritization. It is not out to ‘win’ but to pogress. And anyone who lashes out in anger because the ‘pure’ did not win out over the ‘best’ is going to get shunned. OK, I have given my warning. I am glad to see this success come about in the middle of the battle of partisan wills over Iraq. It shows some semblence of seriousness we have been missing for over year in DC.
enforcement:
See, this is the interesting part. There are millions of illegals, how are you going to enforce the laws as they nowstand? That is the point, you say enforce the laws, I say and what does that mean? How many people will it take, money, resources etc. That is like saying just enforce the drug laws and there will be no druggies. Just enforce the vice laws and there will be no prostitution. Obviously it is not that simple, if it were we would not be having this discussion.
Ed Morrisey pointed out that if we geared up and built the detention centers etc and managed to process 10,000 people a month…it would take 100 years to deport 12 million people. A century.
Or we can just ignore them and that is a sort of defacto amnesty. It seems to me that saying just enforce the laws is a cop out. They have had decades to just enforce the laws.
enforcement:
What link do you want? I know the hardliners have not had a problem bitching about this thing without seeing it, so why should I be the one producing a link?
I have to agree with you Terrye, nobody did a thing to help the situation, like enforcing the damned law to begin with. That’s how we got here. That is exactly what I am asking for. Enforce the law. Since the last amnesty bill, the number of illegals coming into the country skyrocketed and the Federal govt purposely sat on it’s ass and let it happen. What was once a few people coming up here to work and assimilate has now become a slow silent invasion. Several of the cities in the southwest are growing by large percentages every year, solely due to illegals moving in, and we are not stopping it.
I am not going to argue with you that there are plenty of people to point the finger at on both sides of the aisle. The question before us now, which is the important thing, is what kind of country do we want our kids to grow up in? If we don’t slow the number of third world unskilled laborers from Mexico coming into this country, we are going to have a country that is much like Mexico, doesn’t that make sense?? Have you been to Mexico lately? Do you not believe that a flood of cheap labor lowers wages for all? If you bring an entire third world into your home, you will be living in a third world environment. I already see that out west every day.
My concern with any of these immigration proposals is that the effect that they have will be to accelerate the number of mainly Mexican illegal immigrants coming here. Too many too fast. By the way, I never even hear other countries mentioned at all. Why can’t we bring in a variety of people? Mexicans are not going to participate in all this paying fines and back taxes, etc, etc stuff. They are going to hear one word ringing around the hills down there and come up here by the millions, AMNESTY!
Crosspatch and Terrye, good points.
The Dems are shaping the bill to protect union jobs and political image and the Rep hardliners are trying to punish the illegals. The $6500 fines will be a dis-incentive to self reporting, as will having to go back home to file the paperwork. We need incentives, not dis- incentives for this thing to work.
The fear of too many guest workers ignores demographics. (read Mark Stein)
Well my fear is that people will just complain so much that no one does anything. The constant bitching will terrify the politicians and so this bill, or for that matter any bill will die. And then of course the same people who killed the bill will complain that nothing is being done.
I have gotten to the place where I just plain hate this topic. All of it. I dread it and wish it would just go away.
Bikerken:
I understand what you are saying, I am saying at this point in time I do not think it is possible to just enforce the laws.
Terrye,
What link do you want? I know the hardliners have not had a problem bitching about this thing without seeing it, so why should I be the one producing a link?
because you said very specifically:
This bill does have triggers that put stricter enforcement first…and it has a merit system for legalization that includes language and skills. It is better than what we have now.
That these things are in the bill and I wonder how you know.
You said:
See, this is the interesting part. There are millions of illegals, how are you going to enforce the laws as they nowstand? That is the point, you say enforce the laws, I say and what does that mean?
and I say, if we can’t enforce the laws we already have, why pass more just to not enforce them either. I suspect the only thing that would be enforced in the new one would be the amnesty part of it.
What other laws should we not enforce? Only ones for illegal aliens?
.
The constant bitching will terrify the politicians and so this bill, or for that matter any bill will die.
Shouldn’t politicians do the right thing? should they be in office if doing the right thing terrifies them?
.
Ed Morrisey pointed out that if we geared up and built the detention centers etc and managed to process 10,000 people a month…it would take 100 years to deport 12 million people. A century.
I don’t think much of that reasoning. why build a detention center? why process 10,000 a month.
Pass a law that says: All illegal aliens register withing 6 months or leave the country. Anyone not registered within 6 months will be guity of a felony and NEVER eligible for amnesty or citizenship.
Anyone in the country illegally after the 6 months will be arrested and deported when caught and not eligible to return. If caught a 2nd time, spend about 20 years in prison then deported. Put the burden on the illegals.. not on the law abiding people..
.
I forgot to mention. I know the next question will be, how can you register 12 million in 6 months. Well the 6 months is just to allow them time to ‘get the word’. Register them on line. That should take about 24 hours. Over 60 million voted for idol this week, and that was in, what? two hours? All this, can’t get it done is just a rouse.. They just don’t want to get it done. But 6 months is about 6 times as long as it needs to be.
.
Enforcement:
Who the hell will arrest them? The right thing? How about the insane thing?
Fine first we bring back the draft because there is no way regular law enforcement can deal with 12 million people. Then we do away with the law that says the federal government can not send troops into the states without the permission of the Governor then we put the country under martial law and then we hunt these people down. We will have to get rid of the forth amendment and start kicking in doors. We will have to ignore the laws that say people get a hearing before being shipped out of the country. Then we will have to raise taxes and spend billions building prisons that will have to house several times the entire prison population of the day.
So after we have ignore the law, we can enforce it, is that right?
I give up. This is useless and stupid and a waste of time.
As for what laws will we not enforce, we do not enforce all the drug laws. There are people selling that crap all over the place, ruining lives…half the libertarians I know think it should be legal. There are people who do not pay taxes. There are people who do not report all their income. There are people who sell their bodies on the streets in broad daylight. There are people who get warnings for running stop lights, driving without a license and driving too fast. There are people who own guns that are not registered. I don’t see the government kicking in doors all over the country demanding these people register these guns right now today or they will go to prison.
And the list goes on.
And you know something else? You can drive down highways in this country and look at the fields and see people working there..are they legal or illegal? If you see men working on a construction site do you go up to them and aks them their status? These people are out there working because someone gave them a job. And if it was that damn easy to enforce the law, well arrest all of us. Arrest all the people who see those folks in the fields and go right on buying the food. Arrest all those people who move into those houses without making sure the roofers were legal. If it is that damn easy, arrest everyone who is complicit in this. You know, just enforce the law. Piece of cake. It is only the 12 million people after all, roughly the population of Ohio.
And if we make it a felony does that mean that police officers will have to ignore silly crimes like rape and murder and armed robbery so that they can devote themselves to tracking down nannies and landscapers? How many more cops will it take, what will their training be? And what about the lawyers? This is not WW2 when we could just round up all kinds of people ship them somewhere. If we can not identify these people to put them in a program, then we can not identify them to kick in doors and drag them off to jail.
Terrye, you’re over-reacting. I said arrest them, when caught, as in a traffic stop or any other way in the normal course of business.
I wouldn’t hire one extra policeman to enforce the immigration laws.
Just pass the register within 6 months law and anyone that is illegal after that time, if caught, would be guily of a felony and deported. No extra effort at all.. The fear of getting caught, if not registered, should be enough enticement for them to register.
We don’t need martial law, just the same as it is today.
So after we have ignore the law, we can enforce it, is that right? So, the answer is to pass more laws to ignore?
As for what laws will we not enforce, we do not enforce all the drug laws. There are people selling that crap all over the place, ruining lives… Is that a good thing? shouldn’t these laws be enforced?
There are people who own guns that are not registered. I don’t see the government kicking in doors all over the country demanding these people register these guns right now today or they will go to prison.
Huh? most states don’t require guns be registered. I have several guns, none registered and none are required to be registered. I’m not breaking any laws on guns.
Life should go on as normal. As I said pass a law that illegals must leave or register on line within 6 months or be deported if caught, with no extra effort put into catching anyone.
sounds simple to me…
.
Terrye
You missed my point when you dissed the blogs.
Every day we are fed polls with sample sizes of 900 to 2500 people and they are shouted to the highest roof top.
Blogs have people of all stripes and the reaction level shows that this is not settled by a long shot and to try to diss the blogs and dismiss them is really a short sited thing.
If anyone ever sat down and really talked to the illegals, they would realized the vast majority of them don’t even want citizenship.
Have you ever seen this brought up in this discussion. Nope it is the hidden secret.
Ask most and you will hear. Why do you think I live 30 to a house and send half of my money home each month? It is my retirement package for when I go back home. If I wanted to stay here I would save my money for about a year and then arrange for a border crossing expert to get my family here rather then send all my cash home for 10 or 12 years before I go back. But hey if you fools want to make me a citizen and pay me social security after I retire and go back home do you think I am going to look at that gift horse in the mouth.
AJ
Your update to this post shows exactly why you are out of step even with your readers.
You propose we will elect the best of leaders and representatives to hash our future out.
We now have a presidential field of 20 players that most people if asked would say can we get a new shuffle.
What you propose is the exactly the opposite of what we have and is proven each and every day.
Elections are no longer about who you want to win, but more who do you want to keep out of power.
Quick AJ give me a list, and I wont even hold you to a number limit, of congress people you totally respect. My guess is that list would most likely be under 20 to 30 total out of over 500 to choose from.
Yet you say we will get better with the situation we are in and the reality of the mix argues strongly against it.
Merlin:
Most people support a guest worker program when anyone bothers to ask. Most support some sort of legalization process for certain people who are not criminals etc. poll after poll shows that. CNN, Gallup whatever. Now if you asked what is more important, I would not be surprised if most people consider securing the border to be a higher priority than anything else. That does not mean they think they are mutually exclusive. Most people do not support mass deportations. But is it settled? It will never be settled if we spend our time and effort trying to please people who can not be pleased. They have decided they will hate this, and that is that. So nothing will get done. No solution at all. The status quo will reign. And then they will complain about the status quo.
Enforcement, I own guns too, but I am talking about guns that do need to be registered and people just don’t bother. That does not mean they should be put in jail. And if you are not going to hire any more people or go after these people, fine, but that is not enforcing the law either. That is just ignoring the situation unless someone runs a stop light.
I spent two years a long time ago working a project in Saudi Arabia doing upgrades to Riyadh International Airport and I never ever thought of being converted to being a citizen there. I made over 300k a year tax free because I met the time out of country limits to make it so. And that was back in the early 80’s. To have earned that in a pocket cash after tax number here in this country would be next to impossible.
I spent a year and a half in Iraq after the most recent war doing work there on another project and I sure had no aims of becoming a citizen there. But I was putting my skill set to work to help the situation out because I believe in the end game and also pocket a good bit of cash for myself and the team of techs I took with me.