May 18 2007
Guest Worker Program Success
Addendum: It seems that all across the right side of the blogoshpere the sky is falling! LOL!. I am so glad I am an independent. Hysterics over documenting undocumented workers is the exact kind of reaction I said would marginalize the right. The far right has officially jumped the shark. The far left has too. And contrary to the doom and gloomers, America will survive and we will elect serious leaders with serious ideas and prosper. Enough already with “the end of the world” wailing. You folks bet the farm and lost. Get over it. – end update
Yes, I know many on the right feel the effort to bring the immigrant workers out into the open and under a more controlled program is tantamount to treason, but I just cannot share these “Drama Queen” fears. And I know my visits will take another hit (as they always do when I post on my support for Bush’s plans for immigration) but so be it. The fact is the Rep Congress had their little test of wills and lost. And now that they do not run Congress Bush is able to do what he needs to get this needed program going. And from what I see it is pretty good plan (not everything I wanted, but I never expected to get what I wanted):
The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.
…
The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so- called “point system” that would for the first time prioritize immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.
…
The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a “Z visa” and—after paying fees and a $5,000 fine—ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.
They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.
These features (and many more the media is just not reporting on) will deal with the 12 million illegal workers here now (and presumably who have some significant time in – like 2 years minimum). The entire national security component of this plan is to separate those associated with the minor infractions (working without proper papers) from those who are violent criminals and terrorists. Finding a needle in a haystack (the terrorists) is not hard when most of the hay will walk up and move out of the way so you can deal with the bad stalks and the needle you need to find ASAP. This is why those interested in National Security support Bush’s plan because it is the best balance of dealing with the compounded issues involved with illegal immigrants. The plan optimizes and expedites this separation process.
And for new workers the program is really reasonable all the way around
A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called “triggers” had been activated.
Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.
This is clearly not amnesty. With a fine and back taxes, and limited immigrant worker time and opportunity to stay permanently this is light years ahead of what we have now. I am looking forward to having my prediction come true. And while I will warn my friends on the right not to get all aggitated and angry and spewing names at people who don’t agree with them, sadly I know they will not listen. The anger on the right over this issue is as mindless as the anger on the left over the 2000 election. Logic will not penetrate it. But by the same token, the moderates in America will not tolerate disrespectful and demeaning attacks. So that fastest way to marginalism is to rant and rave about what was an obvious result of the far right’s attack on Bush – which started with Harriet Miers. Many times I predicted we would lose the next three years of the conservative agenda over the civil war the far right started with Miers (see here and here). The far right went from Miers onto Schiavo onto Immigration – and they lost the conservative agenda for 3 years – as I predicted.
I am fairly positive there will not only be hesitency, but outright resistence to the far right if they react in the same fashion which put them on the sidelines in 2006. The Immigration solution is well balanced. It is not driven by partisan ideology but by pragmatic prioritization. It is not out to ‘win’ but to pogress. And anyone who lashes out in anger because the ‘pure’ did not win out over the ‘best’ is going to get shunned. OK, I have given my warning. I am glad to see this success come about in the middle of the battle of partisan wills over Iraq. It shows some semblence of seriousness we have been missing for over year in DC.
Terrye
I agree most people support some form of legalization, but that does not jump to the overboard extreme of citizenship.
What I would support.
1) Get rid of in the first moment the concept of anchor babies.
Show me how many other countries support this concept. Give me a justification for why it exists.
2) Enlarge the legal path to citizenship numbers for those who truly want to become members of the USA. The exact number can surely be worked out and optimized by those that have much better access to the data to base this decision on than I do. Don’t skew it for political reasons , but base it on the real need and true desires.
3) Create a guest worker program that is just that. No path to citizenship , only come and work for a time period and then go home.
Optimize the sizing to take the pressure off the border and meet employment needs at the same time.
Doing all the above with a much hated guaranteed biometric id for those admitted under the program as a necessary evil with enforcement of employer sanctions and the other illegals will self deport themselves and the multi acre prison holding facilities will be shown to be the straw man it is.
Dafydd has an interesting post up on this and he talks about jihadis mixing in with the illegal population. He also has some more information on the fence and the program in general. Dafydd is no liberal either.
I provided a link if anyone is interested, here is an excerpt of what he says. But he has more than just opinion, he has some numbers on the fence etc.
Yeah. Let’s do nothing. That will be much better.
If we defeat this bill, the next one will be just enforcement only
Hint for those who aren’t good on current events: The Democrats control both houses of Congress. They control the agenda. They control committee chairmanships and how many of each party gets to sit on the committees.
The committees generally write the bills.
The committee membership picked by the majority Democrats does not include many Blue Dogs (conservative Democrats); rather, it’s far more left-liberal than the Democratic Party itself, and even more liberal than the Democratic conference in Congress. Liberal Democrats oppose border security; they are ideological true-believers in totally open borders… and they also believe that immigrants (both legal and illegal) who vote (both legally and illegally) tend to vote Democratic.
And you know what? They’re right. Hispanics in general tend to vote, oh, 55-45 for Democrats; but among recent citizens, the ratio is much worse for Republicans.
Finally, the nutroots, which drives elections for Democrats much more than the rightroots does for Republicans, is 100% against securing our borders, for a variety of reasons. Thus, the very people who write the bills have an ideological reason, a practical reason, and a political reason not to enact border security.
So why did they support it this time? Because there is a ton of border-security pressure coming from Main Street, and the Democratic leadership was afraid to buck it. But lo! If they were to offer this bill with lots of border security, and if the Republicans defeat it by filibuster — then the Democrats are off the hook: They can blame the lack of border security entirely on the GOP, and we’ll get hammered even harder in 2008 than we did in 2006.
But that’s all right, because the GOP leadership all have safe seats… so they’re not worried. Most of them spent many, many years in the minority before and may actually be more comfortable there; in the minority, you get to fulminate and make grand gestures, but you needn’t do the hard work of actually governing.
Believe me, the immigration dynamic is exactly the same as that of the troop-funding bill: Whichever side is seen by the voters as making impossible demands, thus killing the bill, is the side that gets hammered. Killing a bill because it dares to address a problem — the illegals already here — that most people do want to see resolved (however they want to resolve it) is an invitation to catastrophe.
Merlin:
I am not sure about the baby thing. I have been surprised to hear a lot of people say they do not want that changed. I think it just seems too traditional to people and that somehow it is unAmerican to change it. Do we make it necessary for both parents to be citizens? That would be a huge change in the law.
One thing that it is in this program is that men will not be allowed to bring families unless they can afford health insurance. That would be difficult.
It is also true that not all hispanics are alike. The people in Florida tend to be very anticommunist. A friend of mine who lived in South Carolina said there were a lot of Hondurans there and they do not like Mexicans. Won’t have a thing to do with them.
The sad truth is if Mexico could make better use of its natural resources and its labor force they would not be coming up here looking for work. I think that a lot of these folks just want to make a living, they do not really care about voting and all that anyway.
The criminals should be deported, obviously. I heard that Homeland Security was going after that MS 13 or whatever they call themselves. Bad people.
the best part of this bill? it will never pass……..
Terrye
I can talk from first hand experience.
Our church interacts with a community of illegals by their own admission that live in a cluster of about 35 house trailers about 15 miles from where I live.
They have various skills they are employed with among the surrounding area.
The average home has 6 to 8 children which are all now anchor babies since all of them have been born here except for 3 we have documented who came across the border with their parents.
These are not people who are dash across the border and earn money to send home to go back and retire later. These came knowing at the time that they would never be legal but would rely on their anchor babies to be their retirement fund and to get away from the hopelessness of their native country.
If the anchor baby concept did not exist they could never in any way work this game.
Each year illegals in this country send over 20 billion dollars home as non legislated foreign aide. The better choice would be to work to create change in the countries of origin through sanctions and other measures to get them to change their ways and reduce the environment that drives those who come here. Mostly use a big carrot to help and reduce the pressure.
After all that was one of the prime reasons behind creation of the World Bank in the first place. But now most of the money there goes to places that are not major inflows of illegals into this country.
Economic development of other countries was the area of control that the Export/Import Bank was supposed to work with and it has also been perverted over the years.
These are only two of the over 20 international financial slush funds we sponsor with most being hidden well below the radar.
If the Mexicans don’t like it and the Republican hardcore base doesn’t like it, then it is probably a good idea. I think anything that either of these groups would get wildly supportive of would probably be a bad idea.
Terrye
I live in Florida and over the years have spent a lot of time in the Miami area. My wife was raised there after her father brought her home from Germany where she was born.
We went down there a lot because her ex mother in law lived there after she left. As she always told her, she divorced him, not her and in fact she spent the last three years of her life after she couldn’t manage on her own as a guest at our house when her son basically turned his back on her.
People have the wrong impression that Miami is all Cuban exiles. If you go to Miami today you will see almost every car has one of those flags flying from the top of their cars on each side similar to how other areas of the country fly favorite sport teams flags but these are of their country of origin. And yes most of them are anti-communist because that was the prime mover behind the disasters they fled from.
It really brings to the front why illegals are supposed to support the left with all their socialist agenda.
The simple reason is the vast majority of the illegals are Mexican rather than other nationalities. They have never seen an alternative to the nanny state (but back home it doesn’t take care of them like a nanny would). Then they come here and not only earn money but see the left want to throw more benefits at them and make them citizens to buy their vote. They are now the new black. Any bets on how long the blacks are going to stand for this or how long it will take for that to blow up with major impacts.
Even New Orleans is having major issues with that since a bunch of illegals are doing the restoration work and the whole demographic has shifted.
Nagin’s chocolate city is turning brown and it is not settling in to be a fine brew of coffee sipped in a French Quarter cafe on the Rue Demond.
Killing a bill because it dares to address a problem — the illegals already here — that most people do want to see resolved (however they want to resolve it) is an invitation to catastrophe.
Nobody want to see the problem resolved, they just want to give illegals amnesty and a headstart on citizenship and get them to vote for the Dimmycrats. Every politician that is for the bill is for it hoping it will get votes for them. That’s it. simple as that.. No other reason.
Don’t round up anyone, just pass a bill to require illegals to register (and get an ID card) within 6 months or be deported if caught in the normal course of business. No drivers license without ID card, no hospital visits without ID card. No welfare cards without ID. get the picture. They will either be registered or self deported. No path to anything except work permission with the ID card. Required to file fed and state returns. Eligible for full benefits, with ID card. Get the picture? Require check in and out thru border points.
..
Somebody tell me why that won’t work.
.
Oh, and I just learned that the proposed bill will also include a very tough employment verification plan. And the Mexicans aren’t liking this because A: they only get a work permit with temporary residence, not permanent residence and it piles on a bunch of additional requirements for any chance of getting permanent residence including such things as being forced to learn english.
So far there isn’t a lot for me not to like about this. It tightens the border, it tightens employment verification, it doesn’t grant permanent residence …. so far I like it.
The problem is that no matter WHAT is proposed, people are are always against it. They don’t like what is proposed and offer no workable solution.
As I said, you could make the border like the Berlin Wall and that would slow down the increase in illegals by 50%. It doesn’t fix the problem.
Terrye
What we are involved with is just a pure form of bait and switch.
As long as the left can move the goal posts farther to the left , the middle compromise position is left of where it was before.
Simple math, no complex calculations required.
CP
All we have so far is “reported” provisions, the text of the bill is still AWOL on all the congressional sites.
That does not raise a high level of confidence in this whole debate.
What is your definition of “amnesty”, FE?
It seems like anything that doesn’t deport them is “amnesty” to some people. Here is one of the few things that is true about all of this:
They are never going to be deported. That will never happen. And there is no need to. Deporting them would do a great deal of damage. It would help nobody.
True enough, Merlin, but that sword cuts both ways. There really isn’t anything to criticize yet either.
As fast as this target is moving, even if a bill were to be posted it would be out of date before you could get past the first hundred pages.
Such a major impacting thing needs to be fully examined.
We are approaching 100 days with the delay in funding the war and this goes by without even the first chance to print out the interim provisions of what people are dealing with.
I call BS.
So far what I have seen from looking at sites where the bill should have shown up is a big blank.
It is so contrary to the past history of legislation in this country that it screams for acknowledgment.
This ain’t some chech republic where legislation is pushed through without the chance of examination.
AJ: you and I part ways on this one!
And I’ll debate you with numbers, and I would expect your reply to see if you can refute them?
First Canard:
a) illegal aliens are “taxpayers”: a study done by the County of Los Angeles, to PROVE that very fact, proved the exact OPPOSITE, and was immediately suppressed!
The finding: 60% of the Total economy of the County of Los Angeles, is in fact, underground, blackmarket, off the books!
SIXTY PERCENT!
Why? Because it is the economy of the illegals; they are NOT “taxpayers”; and most of the money they earn, leaves the country in wire-transfers back home!
They cost the taxpayers (you and I); BILLIONS in unpaid Hospital bills, medical costs, lost goods and services, not to mention the crimes they commit, and in fact, MOST do NOT contribute to the economy; it is a bogus, unsupported argument!
b) I live in Atlanta, we have one of the largest illegal alien populations in the nation, and it’s getting worse!
I’ve been here 7 years, I know dozens of them; they do the roofing, the drywall, the construction, the baby-sitting, the landscaping; they are ALL paid “off-the-books”; cash economy, blackmarket, send at least 80% back home, to buy land and build “mansions” in their villages, and very openly tell me that they hate the United States, and hope that some day it is destroyed!
In fact, after 9/11, I can’t tell you many times I saw cars or vans load of “illegals”, traveling down the road, on PURPOSE, flying a sticker or decal of the Flag of the United States, UPSIDE DOWN, on PURPOSE, and would laugh or flip me off, as they drove past!
c) I have a dozen friends down here, who run roofing, landscaping, construction, and even security companies, they ALL employ illegals, and complain to me, that the ONLY way they can make money, and survive, is by paying illegals, looking the other way, giving them cash in wages, etc.
In return of course, for not only breaking the law, they are cheating the US Government, and cheating the US Taxpayer!
It’s an “open” secret, and NO ONE CARES! You can’t report it to anyone; my brother runs a catering service, he tried to report the “illegals”, showing up to apply for work, and showing fake SSN numbers, and the Local Police told him to shut up, they were too busy to deal with “illegals”; the SSN Administration said that he has not right to check for valid SSN’s numbers, etc.
And in the meantime, any time I take my children, US Citizens, into an ER, I have to pay $250 UPFRONT, for service, before they’ll treat one of my daughters, as soon as they find out me and my daughters are “citizens”; but the “illegals” sitting beside me, as soon as they are found out they are “illegal”; they get escorted to the FRONT of the Line, and they don’t have to pay a DAMN CENT!
They also get special considerations, in my daughter’s schools, and they ALL get “free lunches” (I know, because my wife works in the school cafeteria); but my daughters, if they are ONE DAY late with their lunch money, are given a threatening note to bring home to us, and handed a cheese sandwich and a cup of water, and told that’s all they can have, until their Mom & Dad PAYS!
AJ: there is NO exaggeration here, NOT ONE IOTA, and if you think this is “good” for America, then I’m sorry, you’re just plain wrong!
d) under the new bill proposed by the Senate, 9 MILLION illegals would be on the path to citizen ship!
That is an IMMEDIATE and long term $2.5 TRILLION dollar DRAIN on the Social Security Retirement fund!
Yours, and mine!
60% + of all “illegals” are HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUTS!
FACT!
They are not overwhelming College students, and not the “cream of the crop” AJ!
Already, under various welfare and government programs, “illegals” are entitled to approximately $30,000 dollars in welfare, food stamps, and other types of asistance, PER HOUSEHOLD, per year!
Once they are “legal”; their average Household income, will be approximately $10,000 year, that they’ll be eligible to be taxed on, and enter the Social Security System with!
However, you and I both know, that when you earn that little amount of money, you in fact, pay NO Taxes, but in fact, thanks to EIC, etc., you average a NET “return” of $4000 per household!
So, instead of paying taxes, they actually subtract from the Tax Revenue stream, by becoming “legal”; to the net detriment, per household, of $24,000 dollars!
Though the number is actually greater, the conservative estimate is that this will have a $2.5 TRILLION Dollar NEGATIVE effect upon the Social Security Adminstration Retirement fund; to say nothing of the basic health and educations services in this country, the tax burden of taxpaying citizens such and you and I, and the crime rates!
AJ, I’ve watched with amazement as you’ve defended this course of action over the past year or so, and been intrigued by your reasons for it, none of which make sense to me!
Additonally, you CANNOT, under any circumstance, “categorize” ME!
I’m NOT a “Republican”; I’m a proud and registered Independent, for the past 15 years. I’ve voted both Democrat, and Republican; I’m NOT “religious” haven’t been to church since my First wedding, 23 years ago!
Finally, I am in a racially mixed marriage now, to a lady from the Philippines, and all of my daughters are proudly of mixed Pinay-American blood and heritage!
I know what it’s like, to go thru the immigration hassle, I HAD TO DO IT!
And you know what, I did it LEGALLY!
And it cost me and my wife, a 19 month seperation to wait for her visa, it cost me $5000 in lawyers/fees; and it required the combined efforts of a speicalist immigration lawyer, a Pennsylvanian Congressman, a Pennsylvanian Senator, and a Georgian Senator!
You know what happened on one of my wife’s and step-daughter’s first weeks in the country?
We went to a health clinic for Fairfax County VA, to get my step-daughter registerd for 1st grade by getting her a physical.
When we got into the office, the personnel there, took one look at my wife and step-daughter, assumed that they were “illegal”, and started handing us forms for Medcaid, Food Stamps, Welfare, and Voter Registration forms, and urged us to vote DEMOCRATIC!
I’m NOT MAKING THIS CRAP UP!
I told them I didn’t need the stuff, I was just getting my daughter a physical, and I’d vote how I liked!
They told us the physical was FREE, because my daughter was NOT a US Citizen, and in fact, gave her a whole series of FREE innoculations as well!
By this time, I had “caught on”, and said, since you are handing out all this “free” stuff, can you give MY daughter (my wife’s and mine new daughter was only a couple of weeks old, and of course she was an automatic US Citizen) a “free” physical???
They said “is she a US Citizen”?
And I said “Of course, this is my wife’s and my daughter, and she’s only a couple of weeks old”
Their IMMEDIATE reply: “No, she’s not eligible, she’s a US Citizen”
Now AJ, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?
So, I have some personal experience with this AJ, and I have the numbers, you can’t refute them; I’m sorry, you are dead wrong on this, and this is bad, and wrong for this country!
You want to know what else? My WIFE AGREES!
She just laughs when she sees this stuff; she says “Americans are so stupid, they don’t know what they have, they don’t appreciate it, and they want to destroy themselves!”
And then she laughs some more, pathetically of course!
I find that very telling, don’t you?
PS: I don’t mean “part ways” literally, I mean “part ways” Ideologically; don’t take it personally, AJ; I still like your blog, and I respect your opinions, but I disagree with this one of yours, that’s all!
CP
I fully agree with your double edged sword point, it is spot on.
What is getting my attention now is the lack of any form of this being online to review and debate with more context.
I have seen bills of high level discontent posted much earlier in their life cycle and this one is still, unless I missed it, beyond access.
Dale
Amen is what I can say.
AJ may be in an area where they have some illegals, but Herdon , Virginia doesn’t strike me as something like Miami, Fort Worth or any of the border cities where it is really hitting hard.
There are other concentrations in cities far inland that make no rhyme or reason as to why they were chosen.
Thank you Dale for speaking up.