May 18 2007
Guest Worker Program Success
Addendum: It seems that all across the right side of the blogoshpere the sky is falling! LOL!. I am so glad I am an independent. Hysterics over documenting undocumented workers is the exact kind of reaction I said would marginalize the right. The far right has officially jumped the shark. The far left has too. And contrary to the doom and gloomers, America will survive and we will elect serious leaders with serious ideas and prosper. Enough already with “the end of the world” wailing. You folks bet the farm and lost. Get over it. – end update
Yes, I know many on the right feel the effort to bring the immigrant workers out into the open and under a more controlled program is tantamount to treason, but I just cannot share these “Drama Queen” fears. And I know my visits will take another hit (as they always do when I post on my support for Bush’s plans for immigration) but so be it. The fact is the Rep Congress had their little test of wills and lost. And now that they do not run Congress Bush is able to do what he needs to get this needed program going. And from what I see it is pretty good plan (not everything I wanted, but I never expected to get what I wanted):
The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.
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The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so- called “point system” that would for the first time prioritize immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.
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The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a “Z visa” and—after paying fees and a $5,000 fine—ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.
They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.
These features (and many more the media is just not reporting on) will deal with the 12 million illegal workers here now (and presumably who have some significant time in – like 2 years minimum). The entire national security component of this plan is to separate those associated with the minor infractions (working without proper papers) from those who are violent criminals and terrorists. Finding a needle in a haystack (the terrorists) is not hard when most of the hay will walk up and move out of the way so you can deal with the bad stalks and the needle you need to find ASAP. This is why those interested in National Security support Bush’s plan because it is the best balance of dealing with the compounded issues involved with illegal immigrants. The plan optimizes and expedites this separation process.
And for new workers the program is really reasonable all the way around
A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called “triggers” had been activated.
Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.
This is clearly not amnesty. With a fine and back taxes, and limited immigrant worker time and opportunity to stay permanently this is light years ahead of what we have now. I am looking forward to having my prediction come true. And while I will warn my friends on the right not to get all aggitated and angry and spewing names at people who don’t agree with them, sadly I know they will not listen. The anger on the right over this issue is as mindless as the anger on the left over the 2000 election. Logic will not penetrate it. But by the same token, the moderates in America will not tolerate disrespectful and demeaning attacks. So that fastest way to marginalism is to rant and rave about what was an obvious result of the far right’s attack on Bush – which started with Harriet Miers. Many times I predicted we would lose the next three years of the conservative agenda over the civil war the far right started with Miers (see here and here). The far right went from Miers onto Schiavo onto Immigration – and they lost the conservative agenda for 3 years – as I predicted.
I am fairly positive there will not only be hesitency, but outright resistence to the far right if they react in the same fashion which put them on the sidelines in 2006. The Immigration solution is well balanced. It is not driven by partisan ideology but by pragmatic prioritization. It is not out to ‘win’ but to pogress. And anyone who lashes out in anger because the ‘pure’ did not win out over the ‘best’ is going to get shunned. OK, I have given my warning. I am glad to see this success come about in the middle of the battle of partisan wills over Iraq. It shows some semblence of seriousness we have been missing for over year in DC.
No good alternative??
RFLMAO , Bullshit! Mexico has a tighter border and Illegal Allien policy than we do!
I’m sick and tired of hearing that Lamer excuse!
No Jobs, No welfare for illegals, Guess What?
No Illegals!
SHEESH!
Fine the Damn Employers and Stop the Madness with free welfare and education for Illegals!
Try this, It’s called Logic: 1 + 1 = 2!!
At least it still does in my world!!
CP, I am pleasantly surprised to hear that we have a firm number on the number of illegals in the country.
This notion that we can somehow get rid of them or that the Southern border is the majority of the problem is just plain nuts. It is only half the problem of the incoming illegals, we don’t have 12 to 20 million unemployed (the latest number of unemployed people is 6.8 million) to take their place. It would wreck our economy.
Do we also know the names of those 6.8 mill or is that just an estimated number, as the 12-20 mill is? Just because the illegals got into the country doesn’t mean we have to give them amnesty or citizenship. We can just require them to register within 6 months or become illegal felons after that time.. If they register they can get a government ID that will allow them to work and pay taxes, legally. and will allow them to come and go home. Hell, give them whatever benefits they are entitled to by working, but give them no amnesty or any citizenship privileges, make their citizenship requirements the same as anyone else. The incentive to register is created by the fact that they WOULD BECOME FELONS after the registration period if they didn’t register, then would be deported, never to return, if caught in the NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS. No Drivers license or any other benefits WITHOUT the ID card. No roundup, no mass deportation, just CONTROL…
CP,
Nice try, but stop trying to use logic in the face of rampant anger. Not worth the time or effort. As I said, if the reaction was overboard – and it has been – then those of us in the ‘middle’ will not ally with any of these people again in common cause. They cannot be trusted to act in the general good. The far right is over as a political movement. I have no doubt this put the icing on who will be the top candidates on the GOP side: Guiliani, Romney and McCain. Thompson was the one who could have come in, but his response was too close to Tancredo’s.
This is for real and the damage is done. There is no going back. And just as the ultra liberals think they have much broader numbers than they do, it is the same with the Ingrahams, etc. Watch as people get fed up with the fantasies trumping reality. Every argument against this is based on a fantasy view of the world. Every one of them. They are unrealistic, too harsh, exaggerate…. Things you cannot have in a leader.
Again, there realy is no alternative. If you “punish them” they are never going to come forward to be “punished”.
To me, “amnesty” would be giving them permanent residence status. This bill doesn’t do that. It gives them a work permit and status of guest worker.
All this debate is fascinating but the fact is that no one , including most of the senators, have seen this bill. Every time someone from the Hill gets interviewed they all say they have not seen “the bill”. All we know about it seem to be rumors and tidbits passed along during press conferences or faxed talking points. Bottom line, none of us know what the fine print is and how it will impact the country. The scary thing to me is the way that McCain and Kennedy want to ram this through the senate without giving anyone the ability to debate it. That is what makes me question exactly what is going on here.
Many senators are lining up to vote against cloture and keep debate open. The senators will not get a copy of the bill (700 pages) until Monday morning. I think we can afford a few weeks of debate on a bill that is so crucial to our country.
Cornyn, btw, called out McCain on this one. Seems he said that McCain had not been in most of the committee meetings and then just parachuted in for the press conference. Bet McCain doesn’t know what’s in this as well.
Is anyone here interested in the findings of the Pew Hispanic Research Center which is a PRO-illegal think tank?
Let’s view a few findings:
The influx of new illegals drove the wages of existing illegals down in just one year (between 2005-2006) 3.1% and while that may not seem a lot, it relates to the decreasing wage scale as illegal immigration increases.
Mexico, the nation that provides us with the largest number of illegals, is also the the nation that has the lowest number of citizens that apply for citizenship in the U.S., including all Arabic nations, all South American nations and Europe and Asia. Only 35% of all Mexicans apply for citizenship, yet the the number of illegal from Mexico is around 60% of the total.
When asked how Mexicans who are eligible to vote in U.S. elections viewed themselves, 49% said they were Democrats in comparison to 20% being Republican. The balance said they a) were Independents b) didn’t know or c) did not vote.
One company stated that in 2006 the average wire transfer of fund earned in the U.S. back to Mexico was $345.00 with over 20,000 transfers being completed each month. Do the math: that is $6,900,000. per month or $82 million a year by just ONE company. The cost of the wire transfers has decreased in the last five years from slightly over $30.00 to sometimes less than $4.00. The amount of revenue gained by Mexico from wire transfers from the United States is second only to Mexico’s oil revenue. One company said that it estimates that in 2006, over $40 BILLION was sent back to Mexico when you combine the wire transfers from all companies that provide that service.
Employers often chose to pay “under the table” wages for a number of reasons: a) a certain amount of wages can be written off as contract labor where the employee is responsible for the taxes, b) substandard wages can be offered thereby saving the company money on wages and producing a higher number of employees for the same pay and c) matching funds for FICA and Medicare do not have to be paid by the employer ( an automatic 7.5% savings) and d) there is less bookkeeping involved and less paper work to be filled out to be sent to the IRS and Social Security reducing the need for accountants.
The bill touts that it will reduce chain migration but allows for Z-2 (spouse) and Z-3 (children) visas that will go into effect immediately.
Also, the bill allows that illegals who can prove that they have been employed for four quarters (12 months) will become fully vested in Social Security which will allow their spouses and children full benefits as well (research U.S. – Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement). There is no provision for the spouses or children to be citizens of the U.S. so checks would be sent to their native country.
American and naturalized citizens would still be required to have paid into the Social Security fund for 40 quarters (10 years) before they are fully vested. Low wage earners are more likely to gain in Social Security funds that they invest even if they have paid into the system for 30 years. A wage earner that averages $300.00 a week for thirty years will have paid into the system $35,100.00 with matching funds from the employer. At an average of $500.00 per month benefits at age 63, it will take less than six years for them to have been paid back everything they invested and only if they are a single pay family. If a spouse also is paid benefits, the time is reduced to less than four years. So the possibility of a 58 year old illegal working in the U.S. until age 62 and then being fully vested in Social Security is not only a possibility, with this bill, it is a reality.
The bill also has a “prevailing wage” requirement in it where all illegals would be required to be paid prevailing wage. This is a guarantee that is not given to natural born or naturalized citizens. If employers who dodge the prevailing wage requirements by hiring illegals are then required to pay them, they will only do what Tyson Chicken did, look for new illegals who are not registered.
Once given a “work permit” all illegals would then be eligible for all social services, WIC, TANF, public housing, food stamps and in some cities, utility subsidities. The number of unemployed will increase as those who are now demanding prevailing wage are let go from their jobs so that they can be filled with the new crop of illegals who have no desire to become American citizens.
For those illegals who have stolen someone’s identity and used a stolen Social Security number, there will be no penalty. It is a get out of jail free pass. The Social Security paid by using a stolen number will be credited to the illegal’s account.
Still happy with this bill?
Great Post Retire. but you shouldn’t get so bogged down in the details, we are just supposed to feel good about ourselves! So what if this bill gives amensty to people who break every immigration and identity law in the country special tax, pay and retirement advantages over natural born citizens, don’t look at that. Just feel good!
once again it’s clear that the folks who support this bill, like the two prior attempts, have not read the details. this bill will not pass. thank god!
From Powerline:
That’s a pretty good assessment. I read all the Myths and Facts and the truth is, the Myths are the Facts and the Facts are fiction.
McCain is now DOA (actually he always was) to any future campaign thoughts and this Amnesty bill (jokingly referred to as Immigration bill) is also DOA.
Wait til the ‘people’ find out that they are giving away the store to buy votes…..
This is a really interesting thread..
It’s going to be real interesting to see the movement in the polls taken after the details fo this bill start to get aired out. My prediction, Guliani and Romney surge, Thompson comes in, and McCain who?
The Boston Globe is reporting that Bush required the provision for illegals to pay back taxes be removed. In the Kennedy bill, they would have been required to pay all back taxes for three of five years. (Nice deal if I could get it).
That provision has now been removed with the blessings of Chernoff who said it would be too difficult to enforce.
Try not paying your taxes and see how long it takes the IRS to hunt you down.
A Blog of Surrendercats, RINO’s, and DIM-O-CRAPS!
Europa here we come! That’s worked out nicely! Wonder how many cars will be burned on the Streets of LA, NY Chicago, Etc!
Ain’t it GREAT!
I am going to take a hiatus from the blogosphere for a while. It has become to idiotic to read anymore. Besides, I am going to work on a fairly large community art project for a while. I’ll probably check in from time to time but probably won’t be reading blogs regularly again until this winter.
I think I am starting to get a better understanding of the phrase “nincompoops in their underwear”.
Oh for heaven sakes, this is so absurd. Fine kill the bill, finish destroying the president and give the Democrats a super majority. The last election did not teach people anything.
I am well aware of the fact that we need to deal with this, but just bitching does not fix anything. So, do we shoot them all? Call out the military to load them up and put them into cattle cars?
Back when Saint Newt was running the Congress that border was wide open and where were the hardliners? This problem has been getting worse for decades and Bush has put more people and resources on that southern border than any president in history. But did it do him any good? No, he did not wave his magic wand and make the bad wetbacks go away.
There are not only federal governments involved here, there are states and counties and cities and just what have they been doing for the last 4o years? Playing with themselves?
I tell you what, if you guys are right, then nominate Tancredo. So far he is about about zero in national polls, but if you folks are right, he is the guy you want. Why put someone like Gulliani or Bush in there if you are just going to stab them in the back anyway?
I think the hardliners will kill the bill and the Democrats will love it and they will say that even when they had the chance to bring about more border security the Republicans ruined it so vote Democrat and get something done. That will be their schtick. Because whatever stories people come up with it does not change the fact that it took us a long time to get to where we are and we will not just change that overnight.
But cheer up, you guys will kill it and the status quo will remain and nothing wil change, until the next election.
crosspatch:
I know what you mean. Where were all these people when these folks starting come over here to work? If it was that big a deal why wait untile the illegals are 11% of the workforce to decide they are all bad all evil all parasites all worthless and should all be gone.
Except for the roofer who did my house, the landscaper who cut my grass, the nanny who feeds my children, the field worker who helped produce the food I eat etc.
You all are funny. This is a good bill. This country has survived many waves of immigrants, it will survive this as well.
Go ahead and Kill it Conservative purists… Then wait and see what you get force fed by a Super Majority of liberals controlling all three branchs of Government.
You all are funny. This is a good bill. This country has survived many waves of immigrants, it will survive this as well.
Go ahead and Kill it Conservative purists… Then wait and see what you get force fed by a Super Majority of liberals controlling all three branchs of Government. I have never voted for a Dem in my entire life. However, as my party slides into the abyss I may have no choice.
Tom Anon:
No kidding.
The “absolutists” should consider the whole problem and lose unhelpful language like “amnesty” and the obvious emotional baggage.
• With 12-20 million illegals imbedded in our society, identifying them is essential. A carrot and stick approach is the only way to lure them out. And only by identifying them, can we differentiate them.
I reject the notion that because they are “uneducated” they are unwelcome. They are hired because they fill a need. That’s why Bush wanted to “match” workers to jobs.
• I would like to see a little realism on the part of the “just build a fence ” crowd. Consider the issues involved with building a pipeline or freeway ( ie. property rights, wildlife management, flood plane management, maintenance etc.) It’s a big deal.
Good will on both sides could solve this problem, and Republicans could benefit and not come out looking like scrooge.
Well Mr Tom Anon, provide us with a link to this bill so we can read for ourselves how great it is. Or, tell me how you KNOW what is in it.. I think it is all propaganda.
CP does not mean what she says, she will post again tomorrow.
Why does solving this problem have to mean ’rounding up people and deporting them? Why does it have to mean Amnesty? Why does it have to mean ‘path to citizenship? Why can’t it mean, register them, give them 6 mo to register for a gov ID and work permit.. no register, no work. No register within 6 mo, guily of felony with no return. But no roundup , just depend on the work permit to be the incentive to register. No path to citizenship, no amnesty, just a legal work permit. Apply for citizenship like everyone else.
BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS A SIMPLE SOLUTION, they want amnesty, citizenship, social security in 1 yr, health benefits, the whole shebang.
Just let them register and work. No complicated crap.
Why is someone that wants the law enforced a “hardliner”
Why does wanting the law enforced, ‘bad for Pres Bush’?
Is anyone thinking?
Stop the hysteria, there is not even a bill out for anyone to look out and everyone is already condemning the Repubs to hell.
.Think people.
,