May 18 2007
Guest Worker Program Success
Addendum: It seems that all across the right side of the blogoshpere the sky is falling! LOL!. I am so glad I am an independent. Hysterics over documenting undocumented workers is the exact kind of reaction I said would marginalize the right. The far right has officially jumped the shark. The far left has too. And contrary to the doom and gloomers, America will survive and we will elect serious leaders with serious ideas and prosper. Enough already with “the end of the world” wailing. You folks bet the farm and lost. Get over it. – end update
Yes, I know many on the right feel the effort to bring the immigrant workers out into the open and under a more controlled program is tantamount to treason, but I just cannot share these “Drama Queen” fears. And I know my visits will take another hit (as they always do when I post on my support for Bush’s plans for immigration) but so be it. The fact is the Rep Congress had their little test of wills and lost. And now that they do not run Congress Bush is able to do what he needs to get this needed program going. And from what I see it is pretty good plan (not everything I wanted, but I never expected to get what I wanted):
The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.
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The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so- called “point system” that would for the first time prioritize immigrants’ education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.
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The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a “Z visa” and—after paying fees and a $5,000 fine—ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.
They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.
These features (and many more the media is just not reporting on) will deal with the 12 million illegal workers here now (and presumably who have some significant time in – like 2 years minimum). The entire national security component of this plan is to separate those associated with the minor infractions (working without proper papers) from those who are violent criminals and terrorists. Finding a needle in a haystack (the terrorists) is not hard when most of the hay will walk up and move out of the way so you can deal with the bad stalks and the needle you need to find ASAP. This is why those interested in National Security support Bush’s plan because it is the best balance of dealing with the compounded issues involved with illegal immigrants. The plan optimizes and expedites this separation process.
And for new workers the program is really reasonable all the way around
A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called “triggers” had been activated.
Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.
This is clearly not amnesty. With a fine and back taxes, and limited immigrant worker time and opportunity to stay permanently this is light years ahead of what we have now. I am looking forward to having my prediction come true. And while I will warn my friends on the right not to get all aggitated and angry and spewing names at people who don’t agree with them, sadly I know they will not listen. The anger on the right over this issue is as mindless as the anger on the left over the 2000 election. Logic will not penetrate it. But by the same token, the moderates in America will not tolerate disrespectful and demeaning attacks. So that fastest way to marginalism is to rant and rave about what was an obvious result of the far right’s attack on Bush – which started with Harriet Miers. Many times I predicted we would lose the next three years of the conservative agenda over the civil war the far right started with Miers (see here and here). The far right went from Miers onto Schiavo onto Immigration – and they lost the conservative agenda for 3 years – as I predicted.
I am fairly positive there will not only be hesitency, but outright resistence to the far right if they react in the same fashion which put them on the sidelines in 2006. The Immigration solution is well balanced. It is not driven by partisan ideology but by pragmatic prioritization. It is not out to ‘win’ but to pogress. And anyone who lashes out in anger because the ‘pure’ did not win out over the ‘best’ is going to get shunned. OK, I have given my warning. I am glad to see this success come about in the middle of the battle of partisan wills over Iraq. It shows some semblence of seriousness we have been missing for over year in DC.
It would also help if people like Malkin knew what they were talking about. But her knee jerk reaction to anything to do with this issue is hysterical. Too many people are like that and because of that it is impossible to have a rational debate about it. They either say there are no enforcement provisions when there are or they say the government can not be trusted to carry them out. That is not a policy position, that is just paranoia. There is no way to combat it. It is like the shrieking about Dubai. They begin with the position that they have been screwed and take it from there. There is no way to deal with that.
I will try my very best to make this as simple as possible.
Our government is not enforcing existing laws and they are not securing our border. What little bit of improvement we have seen on border enforcement I interpret as an appeasement so that they can get what they want. The majority want the border completely secured. The majority want the inflow of illegals cut down to either zero or a very, very small trickle.
They do not need any new laws to accomplish that.
Regan promised that after he granted mass amnesty, he would secure our borders and stop the massive inflow of illegal immigrants.
It has NOT happened. The problem has only gotten worse.
If I repeatedly lie to someone, I can not blame them if they no longer trust me. I would have no one but myself to blame.
Our government has not done what it said it would do. I do not trust them to stop the inflow of illegal immigrants. And for anyone to argue that this “comprehensive reform” is going to solve the root problems, loss of trust in the government to enforce our borders and stopping the inflow of illegal immigrants, is beyond the pale.
Our government needs to prove that they are serious about stopping the inflow of illegal immigrants before they ask the American people for any type of “reform”.
And attempting to blame me, or anyone else, for our lack of trust in the Government to actually secure the border, is incomprehensible.
The opposing argument seems to be, “if you agree to this reform, we promise the border will be secured.”
Yea, riiiiiiight……….. Sure it will.
And they need this “reform” to secure our borders because……. why? Why can’t they earn back my trust and secure the borders now?
If the underlying problem is the inflow of illegal immigrants, why not fix that problem right now and then decide what to do with the ones already here?
Here is my analogy –
This is like having a giant hole in a boat on the water. We both see the water coming in, flooding our little boat. I want to plug the hole before our boat sinks. You want to talk about what to do with the water already in the boat.
Let’s plug the hole first, and then talk about what to do with the water already in the boat.
Chuck
aka (ApacheIP)
Aoache:
Let me put this as simple as possible, to enforce those laws you would have to lock up a lot more people than the Mexicans. Maybe that tells us the laws are not enforcable and need to be modified. Or we can just go on like this for another 40 years.
For instance, I went home to see some family recently. Relative was complaining about illegals. He was building a house. The carpet people showed up and what do you know? The guys sent to put down the carpet were Mexicans. Did the relative who believes Dora the Explorer is part of a conspiracy refuse to let these men put down the carpet? No, he did not.
So to plug that hole the relative needed to call INS. He needed to refuse to the let workers do the job and cancel the carpet. And he is an honest to God hardliner.
So yes, I agree we need to secure the border and the Republicans should negotiate with that in mind, make it the priority, but we can not pretend that horse is still in the barn either.
You very aptly dodged my entire point about our government not securing our border.
They have lost my trust on this issue. They have promised to do in the past, and they haven’t done it.
If they would simply secure the border first, they could accomplish two goals. They could stop the problem from becoming worse. And they could earn back some of my trust.
Our boat is sinking. You want to sit around talking about what color the bilge pumps should be. You want to talk about whether or not the water may be beneficial. You want to know if anyone is using the water. You want to blame the existence of the water on the passengers and not the big gaping hole in the side of the ship. That is absurd.
And here is the truly absurd part. You want to insist on discussing all of the extraneous crap before we plug the hole in the boat.
And you want to call me some sort of “extremist” because I don’t want to talk about the extraneous crap. We can talk about that later. We need to fix the hole right now.
And the truly, truly, over the top absurdity – you, who want to talk about everything BUT fixing the hole, will want to blame me, who wants to fix the hole right now, if our boat eventually sinks.
You just can’t make this stuff up. The truth is truly stranger than fiction.
I am sorry we don’t see eye to eye on this, Terry. I doubt we ever will. If it is all the same to you, I don’t want to discuss it any more. I don’t see the point. Just go ahead and blame me (the one who wants to plug the hole) when our boat sinks. I can’t convince you to do otherwise, so I might as well accept it.
Best wishes,
Chuck
apache,
i admire your stamina. i gave up on the apologists months ago. they do not want a secure border. they want everything but. they will never agree to securing the border first. never. bush doesn’t want one, kennedy doesn’t, nor do any of the posters here who are for this bill and the prior ones. they claim they do until you ask them to build it first. then the excuses start. today’s orwellian doublespeak is called “comprehensive”.
If you are on a ship and sea, and your ship is taking on water, the logical top priority is to plug the leak/hole. To argue for a different top priority is both insane and suicidal.
That doesn’t mean that you can not multi-task. You can do other things while plugging the hole. But plugging the hole has to be the top priority. If the personnel and supplies that you assign to the task of plugging the hole are not sufficient, then you must assign more personnel and more supplies. It is a no brainer.
And if the multi-tasking gets out of hand, and it actually reaches the point that it interferes with plugging the hole, then the multi-tasking has to stop. Again, another no brainer.
Plugging the hole has to be the top priority.
I am at a complete loss as to why people just can’t comprehend this simple concept. They want to talk about everything while actually doing nothing. Their talk is interfering with the task of plugging the hole. And then, and this is inexplicable, they want to blame me for wanting to plug the hole now and talk later.
We need to fix the hole now, and talk later.
I question the motivation of those who insist upon talking while the ship is taking on water. I say “motivation” because I am assuming they are intelligent and rational. But I freely admit that I could be wrong about that.
Chuck
Apache:
I don’t blame you.
It has not even been a year since Bush signed that bill and so far as I know the money for that fence is in the same place that the money for the Iraqi war funding is.
And if they have lost your confidence what difference does it make what bill they pass? You have already made up your mind.
You say the ship is sinking, I am saying that if that is true we all helped sink it. Do not talk to me about dodging the question when we have as a society ignored this whole situation for years and even today can not come up with a unified idea as to what to do about it.
So fine. let’s build a wall, 1400 miles long with fourty feet into the ground and live wire on top. Let’s imprison every nursing home owner and farmer and contractor and motel manager who has ever hired an illegal.
Is that what you want? I am not trying to dodge anything. I am just wondering why it is if our ship is sinking no one seemed to notice it until after the 2004 election. I since some hysteria here.
Personally I think if you build a wall they will go around it. But what the hell, if it makes you happy build the damn thing.
And if you have lost faith in government then do what I suggested earlier and vote in people like Tancredo, do not get pissed off at people because they disagree with you. Do not call them names and accuse them of dodging the question just because they see things differently.
In other words my point is you build a wall and someone will be bringing them up through the Gulf or the California coast. I think more border security will help, but until and unless we deal with what made the boat start taking water in the first place it will remain a chronic problem.
And btw, if and win they kill this bill the stricter employment enforcement, the additional border patrol agents and the fence will not happen. The whole thing will remain in a state of suspended animation.
So before you accuse me of not trying to find a solution remember that if and when this bill is dead then the status quo continues. Get out the life boats.
BTW, what about the half that did not cross that border? What if they double in numbers? then your wall will not be enough. There will be a new hole in the boat.
Terrye
In the 86 bill it was pure straight amnesty unvarnished and only something less than 2 million applied. Regan signed it with the understanding that a border enhancement (mostly border guards no fence) was supposed to follow and guess what it never happened.
I said earlier in the thread , no bill would be better than this one, and that is a wrong statement, because we won’t even know what is in this until after it is passed.
Most negative comments in this thread show do a bill but enforce the border. Few are saying border only and deport.
Right now what we have can be compared to trying to bail the water out of New Orleans with a soup ladle. Not very effective. A lot of this isn’t even about immigration at all. It is a bunch of political gamesmanship to try to score positional advantage and will end up with a lot of finger pointing a blame laying in the aftermath no matter what the outcome.
Part of the drive behind the opponents is the pure fact we have been shafted by this before and really don’t trust that what would be a workable solution will survive the process or even if it does not be “fine tuned” out later in subsequent revisions.
We should have been more proactive all along to control the issue when right after the amnesty the flood started growing and especially in the view of how Mexico is deteriorating an making the pressures worse. It has just taken all the years to finally get the politicians off their butt.
It has festered so long that now we have a major problem on our hands and any “solution” is not going to be pretty.
Other tie in issues are for too many years welfare was so easy no one wanted to get off the dole and go to work, since they couldn’t compete with the under the counter wages the illegals were willing to take and couldn’t find a job opening a prevailing wage because of the illegal worker count.
Also the PC dumb down of our school system was failing us and few truly skilled and qualified were coming out of the system.
Even if someone got through the system and developed a skill they were in some cases replaced or not hired because H1B visa people were taking the jobs.
How many computer programmers or chip designers are working as bartenders? A lot of our best skilled workers are still just digging out of the dot com bust but of lot of the jobs they trained for are now off shored.
No problem works in isolation.
terrye, don’t you read what I say, not what you think I’m saying?
If they become felons you have to arrest them, process them, try them and put them into prison at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars a year.
I said they would only be arrested in the NORMAL course of business. If traffic violation, drivers license application, bad check charge, if they can’t produce an ID, they just become listed as a felon and deported, never to return. Only if they get caught again do you put them in prison. You don’t hunt them down, you don’t detain them. But if they come to the law enforcement in the NORMAL course of business this happens. We only want to know who and what they are doing and where they are working, legally. If not legal, they go. Quit trying to make a federal case out of something so simple.
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terrye, what are you talking about?
It would also help if people like Malkin knew what they were talking about. But her knee jerk reaction to anything to do with this issue is hysterical. Too many people are like that and because of that it is impossible to have a rational debate about it. They either say there are no enforcement provisions when there are or they say the government can not be trusted to carry them out. That is not a policy position, that is just paranoia. There is no way to combat it. It is like the shrieking about Dubai. They begin with the position that they have been screwed and take it from there. There is no way to deal with that.
Do you really think Malkin knows less about the subject than you or I do? How do you know if there are or are not enforcement provisions? You haven’t seen the bill. How do you know you can trust the government to carry them out? They never have in the past. What is different now? How do you know? Do you take the position that the American people have NOT been screwed on the immigrant deal? Isn’t your position just as hysterical as Michelle’s ?
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terrye, you made Apache’s argument for him
The guys sent to put down the carpet were Mexicans. Did the relative who believes Dora the Explorer is part of a conspiracy refuse to let these men put down the carpet? No, he did not.
So to plug that hole the relative needed to call INS. He needed to refuse to the let workers do the job and cancel the carpet. And he is an honest to God hardliner.
You’re again discussing dealing with the water already in the boat. You didn’t say anything about plugging the hole. Doesn’t Apache want to deal with the hole, he isn’t worried about the water..
Think….
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terrye,
So fine. let’s build a wall, 1400 miles long with fourty feet into the ground and live wire on top. Let’s imprison every nursing home owner and farmer and contractor and motel manager who has ever hired an illegal.
Is that what you want? I am not trying to dodge anything. I am just wondering why it is if our ship is sinking no one seemed to notice it until after the 2004 election. I since some hysteria here.
Personally I think if you build a wall they will go around it. But what the hell, if it makes you happy build the damn thing.
there you go again, talking about nursing home owners, farmers,contractors, motel owners.. all water that is already in the ship.
Why are you hung up on the ‘wall’ nobody has insisted that the only answer to securing the border is a wall and only a wall, tho it probably is the best method. Why do you have walls in your house? Doesn’t it provide some security? Why would it make you unhappy if they did build a wall? Do you think prisons should have walls?
Tell me what the government did that makes you trust them so much on the illegal aliens deal?
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this link:
http://www.thestate.com/154/v-print/story/69054.html
about South Carolina GOP convention is interesting, here’s a snippet:
I guess ‘all’ the regular run of the mill GOP convention members are ‘hardliners’?
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FE,
Yes. People who go to conventions in this kind of year are not the average voter and do not reflect the American voters. You folks have destroyed the conservative movement with your purity BS. I am a proud, impure, non-Republican. I am a stalwar Bush supporter. I could care less about the Reps right now and do not plan to lift a finger or spend a dime in support of them.
If you have lost me you have lost it all. I am proud to be more than a RINO. I am proud to never be a rep. Great job there folks! Keep it up and Reps will be as popular the IRS.
I strongly suspect that had you been at a Dimmycrat convention, there would have been a big boo there also.
,
AJ: what are you spouting??? And for what purpose?
“with your purity BS.”??
What “purity” BS are you talking about?
I never used “purity” in my posts, and I don’t recall any other poster using “purity” in theirs?
If so, please provide an example, direct quote, link?
In fact, what are trying imply by insinuating anyone here, who happens to disagree with you, are using the term “purity”?
Are you making an accusation that those of us to oppose unrestricted, lawless “immigration” from Mexico, or anywhere for that matter, are trying to kee the United States “white”??
Is that what you are implying AJ?
If so, then you just haven’t been paying attention, to me, nor any of the other posters here!
It’s an interestging tactic, comeing from you AJ, on this!
You’re setting yourself up as the martyr, and ONLY correct on in the debate, on your OWN Blog, as you post, by casually implying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, a “Rep”, a destroyer of the “conservative” movement, etc., etc.?
Those of Leftist tactics AJ, and it is not worthy of you, to do such a thing!
Besides, I made it clear, on this Blog, and many other places, YOU CANNOT “categorize” ME!
I’m NOT a “Republican”!
I’m NOT a “conservative”!
I’m NOT a “religious” person!
And I”m IN a “mixed” marriage!
So how are you going to categorize me now, AJ?
And you’re saying that you are a supporter of President Bush, because you back this wrong-headed, corrupt, bogus legislation?
I”m a supporter of the President too, AJ, not just you, and I don’t HAVE to support him on ever issue, and I don’t support him immigration, and I don’t support him on Global Warming, but I do support him most other things.
Dose that make me a “purist” AJ?
Does that make me a “bad person”?
Am I, someone who isn’t even a “rep” and a “conservative”, no w responsible for destroying the Republican party AJ, because that’s what you stated and implied?
That’s laughable on it’s face!
“impure”??
Impure how AJ, tell us how you are “impure”, and what this means, exactly?
“I am proud to be more than a RINO. ”
????????
What does that mean AJ?
You spent the first paragraph, claiming you were NOT a “republican” but “independent”, and now, you claim you are “proud” to be more than a “RINO”???
Doesn’t “RINO” stand for “Republican In Name Only”????
So, how can you NOT be a “rep”; but be more than a “RINO”??
Could you explain that please?
You are basically threatening us AJ, because we disagree with you, and it’s your Blog!
That’s what it boils down to; you support this asinine immigration policy, for whatever reason, your baseline argument is that we have to support it, so “we’re” popular with the Hispanics, and that way, “we” can garner votes from them as a result, and thus “we” can get back into power! i..e, control both Houses of Congress and the White House!
So, in otherwords, what you are saying AJ, is that the “ends justify the means”!
That’s a typical argument the Demcrats and Leftists make all the time, frankly AJ, as well as your attempts to accuse “us” of destroying the “conservative” movement, as well as a pre-emptive strike to cut off dissent on YOUR opinion!
That’s very interesting AJ, very interesting….
Hey man, it’s your Blog, you can write and do what you feel like, I just had more respect for you than this,…..previously…..
I don’t give a fudge what your opinions are, and I don’t give a fudge what your accusations (innacurrate regarding me, and many others on this board); and if I disagree with your opinions, I’ll let you know so, on this Blog.
If you can’t handle it AJ, you need to come up with another hobby!
I never once accused you of anything, because you may write stuff that I don’t agree with; I never once, when you write stuff about Stem Cells for example, which I happen to disagree with your opinions by the way, ever took a shot at you, and said because of you, and people like you, you destroyed the “reps” and the “conservaties”, etc., etc.
I thought better of you AJ, and it has nothing to do with “immigration”.
If you want lawless, unchecked immigration, into the United States, that is unmining our very culture, laws, social fabric, etc., then fine, that’s your perogative, but I don’t agree.
And it has NOTHING to do with the fact, that 60% of them are Mexicans, or whatever!
I live in Atlanta, I have dozens of Mexican friends; good, hard-working people, in general.
You know what, I DON’T care!
IF the ENTIRE country of Mexico, wants to come here and Work, I don’t CARE!
But, they better darn well come here:
a) LEGALLY
b) if the want to stay, Learn English and respect our Constitution, Laws, and Language
c) if they don’t, then they can go home!
d) if they want to “assimilate”, fine..
e) if they want recapture the territory that was once there, then go back home!
f) if they want to educate us about their culture, and show us how to make their food, and dance their dances, and learn their history; GREAT, we all need a bit more knowledge, and understanding about everyone else; but America IS “America” today, because all the previous immigrants believed in the IDEAL that was the United States, and for anyone else coming here, especially to escape dreadful conditions in their own homeland, the very fact that they HAVE to come here, to make better living and enjoy conditions here that they couldn’t at home, means there is some “juice” behind that Ideal!
If the “want” Mexico, or any other country, then stay home; if they want the United States, come here! Power to them!
And I also don’t want our border security such a freaking joke, that ever single Jihadi who wants to come here, and destroy us, can march across the border anytime them want too…
So, if all that, makes me a “bad” guy in your opinion AJ, then I wear the sobriquet with pride….
Dale, I basically agree with most you said, stem cells probably being the exception.
I just can’t figure out how wanting the immigration laws enforced make someone a ‘hardliner’ or a ‘purist’.
I want the laws about robbing banks be enforced, I want the laws about sexual predators be enforced, I want the laws about fraud be enforced. I don’t think any of those would qualify me as a ‘hardliner’ but somehow wanting border security and control over illegal aliens makes me a ‘hardliner’. I don’t know a single person in real everyday life that doesn’t want the border laws enforced. All ‘hardliners’? I doubt it. Some of them are Dims and some are Repubs. I guess the Repubs are ‘hardliners’ and the Dims are sensible. Also the ‘more than a RINO’S’.
Hell I don’t even care if law abiding aliens are deported as long as they register and get a gov. ID. and have a self supporting job, and pay taxes like everyone is supposed to. And we control the numbers coming and going.
I too agree with about 90% of George Bush’s plans. I don’t agree with too much federal pork, but I support him on terror and Iraq. I don’t support his ‘amnesty for all immigration bill’ or his ‘global warming’ stuff. I think that he personally is a very good person and has the best interests of Ameria in his agenda, except for immigration.
Here’s to the ‘hardliners’………..
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