May 25 2007
Immigration Bill Rolls On
The Immigration Bill is rolling ahead in the Senate.
By a vote of 66-29, senators rejected an amendment by Republican Party legislator David Vitter to eliminate a provision that offers legal status to most of the 12 million illegal immigrants living in the United States.
…
The Senate also narrowly rejected a proposal by Republican Norm Coleman to allow state and local law enforcement agencies to help enforce immigration laws.
I have issue with some things changed or not included – especially Coleman’s proposal. Hopefully it will go back in at conference. Of course, if the hard right would vote to strengthen the bill instead of gutting it things would be better. Coleman lost by 2 votes. Perfect is the evil of good and continuing with the status quo is dangerous. So as along as the ability to deport criminals stays in under a one-strike-your-out feature this bill is keeping my support. That feature alone makes this bill worth keeping. But we need the guest worker program to get background checks (criminal records) and to provide IDs to those checked and cleared. So far good enough.
Update: Myth busting the myth peddlers:
FACT: The bill would, for the first time, give the Departments of Homeland Security (DHS) and Justice (DOJ) tools to keep certain aliens out of the United States solely on the basis of their participation in a gang.
No conviction is required – if an individual has associated with a gang and helped “aid” or “support” its illegal activity, then he or she is not allowed to remain in the country – even if he renounces his gang affiliation.…
ACT: After the family backlog is cleared in the first eight years after enactment, the bill will eliminate about 190,000 extended family visas per year. By contrast, the category of “extreme hardship” cases is capped at 5,000 visas per year.
…
FACT: Illegal workers who ignored deportation orders are not eligible for the Z visa program, except in exceedingly rare cases in which they can demonstrate their departure would “result in extreme hardship.” FACT: The determination of what constitutes “extreme hardship” lies entirely within the discretion of the Secretary of Homeland Security, who has no interest in allowing this exception to be abused.
Unlike the cries of that the sky is falling from the right, these concerns from the far left are serious concerns. They are not getting what they wanted. Seems to me all the right people are pissed off on this bill. How many times did Cons hit liberals for incidentally allying themselves with al Qaeda on Iraq? Tons of times. Seems some kettles are going around calling some pots ‘black’. Look at the alliances against the bill – uber nationalists and anything goes lefties. No wonder this bill’s time has come.
Update: The hardliners are killing the GOP:
For a certain kind of conservative, any attempt to grant a legal status to illegal immigrants is as welcome as salsa on their apple pie. One conservative commentator claims that the law is “going to erase America” — an ambition even beyond Ted Kennedy’s considerable powers. Another laments that “white America is in flight” — and presumably not just to Jackson Hole or Nantucket for the summer.
…
If a Republican presidential candidate doesn’t get about 40 percent of the Latino vote nationwide, he or she doesn’t stand much of a chance on an electoral map where Florida and the Southwest figure prominently. A nativist party will cease to be a national party.
Breaking 40 percent is possible for Republicans. President Bush did it in 2004. Republican momentum among Hispanic voters has been strong in the past decade — until Rep. Tom Tancredo and his allies began their conflict with the fastest-growing segment of the electorate.
Conceding Latinos to the Democrats in perpetuity is a stunning failure of political confidence. If the Republican Party cannot find ways to appeal to natural entrepreneurs, with strong family values, who are focused on education and social mobility, then the GOP is already dead.
Well, some of it is dead anyway. The question is whether the condition is fatal or correctible. For our nation’s sake in the fight against al Qaeda I hope it is correctible. My fear is ,from what I have seen the last week, is it is probably fatal – to all of us. We will surrender to al Qaeda because some folks got all worked up over documenting undocumented workers. Just crazy.
You know what? When it comes to BP agents, remember they can be political too. Just look at the CIA. Any branch of government will have all kinds of people working for it and some of them support policy and some don’t. But they don’t leave with a new administration, not most of them…they are the permanent government. I had a guy from the USDA tell me once that he did not give a damn what the government said, as far as he was concerned agriculture was too important to be left in the hands of a bunch of jack legged farmers. I am sure he has retired with a big pension by now.
And you know what? If this bill goes through there will be 18,000 more agents.
terrye
I heard Kyl say that the fence is being built now. 75 miles under construction. This is the government, it has only been a few months since the bill was signed and they have to go through bid processes and everything else. Maybe if people spent as much time trying to find out the facts about issues like the fence instead of just trying to shout down everyone else….we might get something accomplished.
funny you should say” Maybe if people spent as much time trying to find out the facts about issues like the fence ” obviously you didn’t spend any time checking it out or you would find out that all sections that are under construction were under construction PRIOR to the bill being signed last year. One section of 16 miles has been under construction in California since 1996. None, that is not any, has been started SINCE the new bill. Some (a short section is under construction) in AZ. but the total is less than 75 and all old construction. Google ‘border fence under construction’,
and
61. If you had to choose, what do you think should happen to most illegal immigrants who have lived and worked in the United States for at least two years: They should be given a chance to keep their jobs and eventually apply for legal status, OR They should be deported back to their native country?
but that’s not the question. It’s not eventually apply for legal status, it’s instantly granted.
and
73. When the US government is deciding which immigrants to admit to this country, should priority be given to people who have family members already living in the U.S., or should priority be given to people based on education, job skills, and work experience?
” should priority be given to people who have family members already living in the U.S.” already living here? as in ‘illegally’ ? wow, now that a tough question.
and
But when the hardliners ‘hardliners’ as in, people that want laws enforced?
And you know what? If this bill goes through there will be 18,000 more agents.
not in a million years.
.
You know what just occured to me, once the bill is signed, everyone is assumed to be in a legal status, right? That means they will all be eligible to go down and get drivers licences, right? Ans as they do, what other law will kick in that is associated with drivers licences that bars the DMV’s from asking about a persons immigration status? You guessed it, MOTOR VOTER! The dems won’t even have to pass another bill to get these people on the voting roles, because they will be registered to vote automatically as they get drivers licenses, and since their legal status is going to be legally vague anyway, nobody is going to stop it! How fast do you think they could find a liberal judge to say that if they are legal, they can vote?
I don’t think legal status means that they get US citizenships, right?
AJ, excellent, excellent post. Just right on. I wish the word “pragmatist” could find it’s way into the conservative lexicon…
Just *who* are really the Republicans In Name Only, I ask…
So here you have it; Terrye brushes off the opinions of the boots on the front lines, the Border Patrol, as being “political” and AJ choses not to address it at all but instead reminds us that the GOP needs a late term president that has less than two years of office remaining when in reality, they should be pandering to the one they think will be coming after him.
I am so glad that Terrye is now basing public policy on polls. She would be a good candidate to be a president in the mold of the previous administration who chose his tie for the day on public opinion polls.
And if Terrye would have bothered to read the letter of Local 2544 of the Border Patrol, she would realize that even now, the BP are not meeting their recruitment numbers, while are military is. Why is that, Terrye? Could it be because they understand that they will not be allowed to do their jobs so they go to another agency? Will we start lowering the standards for BP agents in order to fill the numbers? When two agents are sent to prison for shooting at a drug runner and another has been indicted for killing an illegal threatening him with a rock the size of a large brick, does that build confidence in the agency? When they are under Chernoff and the DHS and their own director musters a “no confidence” vote from the entire BP enrollment, where are we going to get another 18,000 agents?
Terrye and AJ have all the answers, just pass the bill. It’s the best we can do. But if it is the best we can do, then we need to just suck it up and accept that we are no longer a sovereign nation and that we are going to allow another nation (Mexico) to set foreign policy.
So ignore the Pew Hispanic Research findings. Ignore the opinion of Border Patrol agents who are looking for other jobs because they are not being given the support from their own supervisors and their own government that allows them to do their jobs. Ignore the demographics that will change our political, social and economic structure forever. Ignore the fact that, for all intent and purposes, the Republicans will go the way of the Whigs simply because we have legalized millions of new voters that are socialist in opinion. Ignore the fact that 60% of the illegals are uneducated and will require federal assistance (your tax dollars) for their very substance. And ignore my questions which are by the way, legitimate questions to a complicated issue.
And the only thing sticking out of the sand will be your rear end which is where you are going to take it when it comes to taxes, job security, national security and political clout.
I don’t think legal status means that they get US citizenships, right? Unfortunately, wrong.
Lurker,
Contrary to the exaggerators legal status does NOT mean citizenship. If you have been here a while you can opt for Z-card path to green card and pay $1K – no citizenship. If you opt for citizenship it is $5k and you have to go to the back of the line – no credit for the time here or the time waiting for the program to come on line. Once the program starts they begin at time zero. Those in the temporary work program – no citizenship. None. The exaggerators have no credibility anymore. They can’t even be honest about the program.
For every rule, there are many exceptions. True the term legal status does not mean citizenship, but they are extended EVEN more rights than present American citizens have. That may be the only good thing in the whole bill is that they get so many benefits that they would actually lose some of those if they later became citizens.
And yes, if they get a drivers license, they also get registered to vote. and no that’s not in the bill and that is the problem. Since it doesn’t exclude them from voting and they have legal status, they can’t be denied voter registration. (Note: after the bill is signed, they can’t be asked their status (but that’s not a change, they already aren’t)
They gov will even supply them an attorney free for civil work, something American citizens can’t get.
They can’t even be honest about the program. There’s no reason not to be honest. Actually quoting what’s in the bill is the best argument against it.
Are American citizens eligible for medicare in Mexico if they live in Mexico? Answer: NO Are non Americans eligible for medicare in Mexico if they live in Mexico? Answer: YES. the truth is stranger than fiction.
And what if they dont’ want to? We are back to square one: who is going to enforce whatever law is passed? We have very little enforcement now of current law. Who’s going to enforce the new one? And without that….what point is it in ever talking about any of this???
I appreciate this discussion….let me preface by saying..I live in NYC. More than half the people I know are illegal for one reason or another. I’m serious. Either overstayed their visa…or just came here over the border. I have very close friends…who are in this boat. But, they basically would say…if they don’t like whatever provison of whatever bill gets passed…they just won’t abide it. Who’s going to enforce it? Why do you think they are here NOW?? (and have been for decades)
Nobody ever bothered to follow up on on the “current’ law. What makes anybody think they will on the next set of regs??
I would also like to at least..for the sake of honesty…and as much as I love and respect my friends…make a distinction between “immigration” and people who are here “illegally” (for whatever reason..subclassifications of that galore).
We can’t even enforce the “current” law…which pretty much covers it (ie..entering illegally, without visa, etc.). I don’t see anything in this that addresses “that”.
Thanks for listening..and I welcome ..and will attentatively listen to responses.
D
If you are a child of an illegal immigrant you get a z-2 card and since you were drug across the border, you get a citizenship chance after 3 years.
No go to the back of the line.
Here is a poll result, from the same poll that AJ is referencing, that isn’t covered in the dinosaur media.
8. Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the issue of immigration?
Disapprove – 60%
Approve – 27%
page 8
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070525poll.pdf
Facts are a stubborn thing.
ApacheIP
More results from the same poll.
57. Do you think the U.S. is doing all it can reasonably be expected to do along its borders to keep illegal immigrants from crossing into this country, or could the U.S. be doing more?
Doing all it can – 14
Could be doing more – 82
page 27
Another poll result –
74. Should illegal immigrants be prosecuted and deported for being in the U.S. illegally, or shouldn’t they?
Should be prosecuted – 69
Should not – 24
page 29
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070525poll.pdf
You all are missing the main point. We have anarchy on our borders. When millions of people disregard the law and get away with it, that is anarchy. This anarchy is not limited to the borders. We have Illegal aliens voting in numbers large enough to swing elections already. Bob Dornin and J.D. Hayworth are two victims of noncitizens voting against them. We have illegal aliens violating our traffic law, driving without licenses, while drunk, with suspended licenses, etc. Not to mention the massive identity theft and illegal use of Social Securtiy Nos., the the rapes, murders, and other crimes. The percentage of illegal aliens in our prison system is an indication that once they get across the border and get away with it, a large number of them continue on their lawless paths. This is anarchy. Just how long do you think it will be before the US public joins them in picking and choosing which laws they wish to obey. Legalizing them in any fashion is only adding fuel to this fire. They should all be rounded up and sent home. Too expensive? Not nearly as expensive as providing them with government services and supplemental income goodies. To do otherwise is to abandon all hope of having country which is ruled by “a government of laws, not men. ” What is the use of having laws if they are not going to be enforced?
Part of the issue is that the way this bill is structured, it negates a fence even if one were to be built.
12 million (minimum) illegals will be able to drag their spouse, kids and parents over the border legally.
That means possibly 40 million or more chain immigrants.
The fence would only stop new illegals.
All the extra border guards will have to play ticket takers at the border just to monitor the now “legal” flow back and forth across the border.
Any one want to tell me where 40 million new people are going to live?
Heck for a small business to expand their manufacturing capacity on the property they already own takes about a 2 or more year environmental impact statement and permit process.
If this goes through, it’s not just the extra school, medical, social program stuff thats gonna take a hit.
Water supplies will have to be found
Sewage plants expanded
Electrical Power generation and transmission
If you think we are dependent on foreign oil now, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
New and larger trash disposal sites.
Yet all the other government programs are setting goals of lowering gas use and emissions per vehicle etc, but the shear growth in numbers will far outstrip any individual reductions.
It could be handled as a gradual growth thing, but we could literally see a population growth of 20 million new permitted chain migrants over a two to three year time frame that we have no way to adsorb and build the infrastructure that fast. This does not even take into account the 200,000 guest workers or new legal green card holders not z cards because they will be a much smaller number. Also it totally swamps the yearly H1 visa amounts.
Someone give me a clear path as to how this explosive growth of population can be supported.
To put this into scale according to the CIA factbook
http://tinyurl.com/2bjmcw
The current population of Cuba is slightly over 11 million people.
So we could build a bridge or a cruise ship convoy from Cuba and suck in the whole population except for Fidel and Raul and still wouldn’t touch the numbers we are talking about here.
If we take in that many chain migrants does it totally negate the need for guest workers at all?
My point is that we already see strains being placed on the support systems in many areas of our country already just because of the illegals.
This goes beyond how the bill is passed in it’s final form.
The impact of rapid population expansion is being ignored in the debate, instead we only have the total lack of examination of the short and long term impact that will somehow be automagically supported.
This thing really needs the equivalent of an environmental impact statement and it’s being thrown by the wayside as so much trash.
AJStrata, thanks for the explanation.
I think, although, that most of the Mexicans do not want or desire a US citizenship. All they want is a job, save money (and find ways to save money), send most of the money home.
If that is the case, then they aren’t interested in paying 5 grand.
Too bad that Mexico isn’t interested in generating economy for its middle and low income classes.
Merlin, the impact of rapid population expansion…you mean the future impact of rapid population expansion? Yes, this is a major issue.
As for voting, when I go in to vote, they have lists of registered voters. I hope that they would verify the list against US citizenships before they open the poll booths so all would be needed is a photo id.
So if you are on the list, you are a US citizen. By golly, I would be pissed if that information is not correct.
Guest Workers Program…if that would record all illegal immigrants, then I don’t have a problem with it. They need to be recorded so we know where they are and who they are.
But, by golly, when their time is up, we need to make sure they are deported back to their original country.
And they need to approve asylum when necessary and especially if their lives are at stake (provably).
I see that Bush signed the almost clean defense bill.
It was Murtha that got the democrats to scramble to vote to pass this bill. The Democrats thought that they had until July to hold off on this bill. No. Murtha said the troops would run out Monday and shifting of funds would be a “disaster”.
Shame on them for timing their efforts to existing funds.
Now we finish the surge and establish peace. I see that we went after the Al-Sadr stronghold.
As stupid as this sounds, it would be cheaper to stand at the border and give 150,000 Mexicans 200.00 cash in pesos each month and say see ya in 30 days than what the impacts of this bill will be on future immigration.