May 30 2007
Poor Judgement Is Not The Same As Patriotism
I watched Special Report with Brit Hume and it was great to see the Immigration Hypochondriacs running amok again. Laura Ingraham was especially sad, and helpful to Bush’s cause. So was Rush (I bet you I lose my top 13 listing over this one). When Bush points out how heated rhetoric (like the word ‘amnesty’ and calling people “RINOs” and “Traitors) would only continue the status quo Ingraham felt her patriotism was being questioned. No dear, it was just your poor judgement. Stiff upper lip time.
The rantings by the far right on Immigration follows a long line of dissention with Bush, and all along the way the dissenters questioned everthing from Bush’s patriotism to his respect of life to his intelligence. It started with Harriet Miers (questioning his respect for life), went onto Dubai Ports (questioning is patriotism and protection of our nation) and now is onto Immigration (all of the above).
The fact is the far right has become intolerable of tolerance. They have been on a tear for purity, sacrificing progress at every turn. The examples they throw out of criminal elements inside the immigrant community are the kinds of concerns this bill will fix, yet the peddlers of those horror stories stand firmly against doing anything about them! Sorry folks, but poor judgement is not the same thing as being patriotic. The Liberals feel it is patriotic to surrender to al Qaeda. The far right is the same way about stopping the documenting of undocumented workers.
The far right has completely split the conservative coalition on many topics – the latest being immigration. The conservative coalition has been torn apart by these obstinate hardliners. Now it is patriotic to leave us with the very dangerous status quo, but unpatriotic to want to fix the problems. That is some crazy pretzel logic. Bush’s Sister Soldjah moment is working quite well, because he has the far right just babbling incoherently, and dangerously.
The schism started by the far right is now for real – and escalating. Rush Limbaugh is saying the far right will not back Bush on Iraq because he called them all their exaggerations. Hopefully for American, and the GOP, Rush is dead wrong. The Far Right staged their big pout in 2006 and left the nation with a Democrat Congress hell bent on giving al Qaeda their first win in the War on Terror. If the far right thinks they can stage another big pout and cement al Qaeda’s win, simply because many of us are tired of the endless excuses to not act on immigration, then they are treading on political extinction. Rush better rethink his comment. Blackmail doesn’t go over well with people. epecially if the blackmail entails letting al Qaeda win in Iraq so they can come after us here. That is as close to a death threat as I ever want hear.
If Laura and Rush want to now say they are withholding support for our efforts in Iraq until they get their silly way on immigration then we WILL call into question their patriotism. Right now it is only their judgement on this ONE issue that is lacking. They can be wrong on one issue and be forgiven. We are all human. However, they cannot hold a nation hostage with the threat of letting al Qaeda win Iraq and ever be forgiven.
The far right does not have the support they think they have. They have their echo chambers, but they do not have the poll numbers. I am one of a few willing to speak out clearly and passionately that the Conservative movement, on this one issue, is being led astray by the vocal talking heads – while the voters head towards another path. Laura and Rush can pout and confuse their judgement with patriotism all day long. But do not threaten us. That is a line that you will never cross back over. America is truly ready to dump the hot heads and support the hot ideas. The DC swamp needs to be drained. We can start with those making not-so-veiled threats against this nation.
Read about all the “hardliners”. Funny that of the 84 votes in the Oklahoma senate to pass strict laws preventing illegals from gaining benefits because the federal government won’t, of the 84-14 vote for the bill, 31 of them were Democrats.
More on what states are doing on their own which will all be moot when the Bush/Kennedy Bill giving our nation away to illegals goes into effect:
http://www.jurist.law.pitt.edu/jurist_search.php?q=immigration+bill+text
Tell me, AJ, are the 84 Senators in Oklahoma and the majority of other senators in other states that realize that we are giving away our future all HARDLINERS?
Terrye; al righty, now we’re getting somewhere.
I read that there are supposed to be an additional 18,000 more border agents added to the numbers.
That’s what the bill says, and within 18 months, but then here, from the bill is what it says:
eaking of following the leader, Rush has a following of his own and th5/18/2007 4
`(1) 2,000 in fiscal year 2007;
`(2) 2,400 in fiscal year 2008; 39
DRAFT – FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY
May 18, 2007 11:58 p.m.
`(3) 2,400 in fiscal year 2009; 1
`(4) 2,400 in fiscal year 2010; 2
`(5) 2,400 in fiscal year 2011; and 3
‘(6) 2,400 in fiscal year 2012. 4
that’s what it says, 14000, and that’s thru 2012, not in 18 months. and that’s subject to availability of funds( as in the fence funds that have never materialized)
I also read that there are stricter employer penalties than we have seen before, the difficulty is making the thing work of course.
The bill has no enforceable stricter laws, first of all, everyone is now legal under the bill so the employers will have nothing to enforce.
When do all the probationary times begin and end? I don’t know, I never said I did. I have not read the bill, I never said I did.
Probationary starts immediately and never ends. Simple as that. and while probationary, they have the right to vote. That is very specifically in the bill, you should read it.
If this bill is not passed or amended so that it can be passed will any of these people be deported?
If it is not passed, it is possible some may be deported. If it IS passed, then none will be deported. It is specifically prohibited in the bill. I quoted that above in this thread.
If there are things in the bill that people think are wrong, then they should try to fix it… not kill it. It would be simpler to deep six it and start over. Actually only one change would make it completely acceptable. NO Probationary benefits. Just remove that one thing, make everything in it apply after the person has applied and passed the thorough,complete background check. As it is, there will be no background checks. They only have 24 hours to check and after that, it’s katy bar the door.
I withdraw my phony statement, you do at least acknowledge that on this bill, you don’t have a clue.
.
I’ve read the bill. The entire fricking bill.
And I am against it.
If someone who is in favor of this bill, someone that has read it, would like to engage me in a civil debate on this bill, I would be more than happy to agree.
terrye
in the next post you said:
It is not true to say there are no border security provisions in the bill and it is not true to say that it can not work
Neither is true, first you just said you didn’t know what was in the bill, that you haven’t read it and now you are stating what is in it. And you’re wrong on both points. There are no border security provisions in the bill that are absolutely required, no at all before everyone here is made legal and none that will ever be enforce. I know I read the bill. I can document any and every claim I make about the bill(actually I already have, but you might have missed it)
.
Terrye, let me give you a hint. Those of us down in the southwest have been screaming to the Fed govt to do something about this problem for YEARS! But you don’t hear it because it seems to have nothing to do with you! Now you criticize us for not doing anything. That’s just priceless!
When Jorge signs this bill, ALL illegals in this country are immediately considered to be in a LEGAL status temporarily. I say temporarily but it can be renewed every couple of years until they die. That pretty much makes it permanent. Essentially, what this bill does is ELIMINATE THE ILLEGAL ALIEN STATUS. That means that they can work, travel in and out of the country and cannot be deported. They can get drivers licenses, and will probably be registered to vote by the Vogels at the DMV. They don’t have to pay a fine, and they essentially get all of the bennies of a legal resident. (OH, but they are at the back of the line). The pro-bill people keep waving that 5000 dollar fine around, but that is only if you want to apply for citizenship. Why would they? And again, like Apache has been posting and you have obviously not read, every single one of the triggers and border enforcements is subject to approved appropriations! If they don’t pass the funding, it don’t have to happen. After the bill last year with the fence, who do you believe? The whole border security aspect of this bill is a farce.
There is a special provision for gangbangers, all they have to do is sign a “Renuncifation of Affilitaion” form and they are home free! I’m not making this up.
The reason there are not more Tancredo’s in the house is that the democrat opponents ran to the HARD RIGHT of the republican incumbents who were also against this steaming pile of legislation.
One more thing, if you really think that opposing this bill is going to hurt the republican party, Oh I’m sorry, that’s the HARD RIGHT, you should remember that only 16 percent of the people are supporting this bill. I don’t think it’s going to hurt any republican candidate one bit to be against such umpopular legislation. As a matter of fact, it will likely hurt the dems.
I FOUND THIS ON FREEREPUBLIC.COM…….Thought it was interesting. Bush has been saying the same thing about immigration since 1999.
Bush talks about immigration:Quotes from Dubyaon the topic ofimmigration
Posted by GLH3IL
On General/Chat 05/30/2007 8:01:29 PM PDT · 3 replies · 17+ views
05/30/2007 | Greg Hampton
Recently many Freepers have been acting like Bush has never addressed the issue of immigration, and now all of a sudden they recognize that his view of how to deal with the subject is not exactly conservative in nature. Wow. He’s only spoken to this subject several times…and he has not stepped away from what he said he would do. We voted for him twice, knowing full well what his immigration policy was going to be. Stop acting like he’s suddenly worse than Nixon, Carter, and Clinton all rolled into one. Kudo’s to On The Issues for archiving all of…
Terrye
“Speaking of following the leader, Rush has a following of his own and they don’t doubt or question him. Not at all”
You have got to be kidding! Rush, though he disagrees with Bush on this issue, has nevertheless ascribed the best motives possible to Bush. He sees Bush as doing what he thinks is right, good, and moral. And Rush has taken a lot of flak from those people whom you characterize as unquestioning robots, because he is not hitting Bush as hard as they want.
Boy, you guys really don’t see how looney you are beginning to sound in calling others far right this and extreme that. Hugh Hewitt spent the entire weekend that this bill first came out, reading it. He wrote eight posts equalling 10,000 words. He was the first to point out what sec 601 (h) would mean when practically applied. Hugh disagrees with this bill and Bush. Now, are you really going to tell me that he is part of the so-called “far-right?”
Terrye, if you would care to read the bill, perhaps then you could talk about it from a learned prospective. Until then, you are relying on what you read (and I would be most of your reading favorites tend to be left, as you claim you once were).
Where are we going to get an additional 18,ooo Border Patrol agents when they are applying now for early retirement and the BP is currently NOT meeting it’s recruitment goals? Who wants to work for an agency when they know if they do their jobs, they will probably wind up in jail or on suspencion at the very least?
Why is Hillary Clinton hiring the former head of La Raza to head up her “human rights” program? Simple. She sees all the new Dhimmicratic voters with the passage of the Shamnesty bill. She realizes that in a poll in Nevada alone, 65% of Hispanic voters are Democrats. Add another 12 million and there you have it. Dhimmicratic control for four generations.
Do you even remember what Teddy Kennedy said in 1986? How the Amnesty bill would end illegal immigration? Do you remember the bill of goods were were sold then? He lied then; he’s lying now.
Bikerken:
I was just down in the southwest, I grew up there. I have family there. Some of them agree with you, some do not. As for getting the feds to do something, I have always wondered why the states did not do more themselves.
I have said a couple of million times that I support doing more to secure the border. As for the numbers, well there are also the 63% who support a guest worker program and the 63% who support giving legal status to some people. Of course that some people thing is open for interpretation.
I am sure that the opposition has done a good enough job of demonizing the bill to probably kill it. I just think that making it better is better than killing it. But like enforcement said, I am a phony so who cares what I think?
AJ & Terrye: here is my major problem with this “bill”.
When Regean did his “amnesty” bill back in ’86, that was supposedly the END to “illegal” aliens, the whole shebang, etc.!
Well, that turned out to be utter crap!
And I remember this fairly well, because I happened to have a good friend, from the American University in Cairo, and Egyptian guy I’ve known for 30 years.
We attended the University together, then I returned to the States and PSU, he got an F-1 visa, and came to the States!
And he overstayed his visa, then he started to “move around”; and he took “cash” paying jobs, and he had friends who hooked him up, and he tried to find an American girl to marry him, and he stayed, and he subsisted on the undergound economy, and he finally found a nice Cuban-American lady and they got married, and right about then, Regean passed his bill, and he applied for amnesty, and he got it, and he’s an American now, and he has the passport and everything; so great story right?
Well NO, because now, we have 12 MILLION more of them, and this is supposed to the END this time; but it’s bullshit, bullshit, bullshit…
Because they’ll pass this bill, and they won’t enforce the border, and they wont’ issue tamper proof ID’s, and they won’t kick out the criminals and the murderers and the rapists and the child molesters and the JIHAIDS and the Gang members, because there are enough Leftist Clintonian Judges, and enough idiotic Leftists in positions of power, that they’ll challenge ever case, every provision, etc., and tie it up for decades in the courts, and in the mean time, ANOTHER 25 million ILLEGALS will come in this time, and 20 years from now, we’ll go thru it all again, say, “Okay, we’ll do it this time…”
And in the meantime, these 12 MILLION that we’ll legitimize, will immediately cost the SSA $2.5 TRILLION Dollars, not to count the cases of fraud like hit Bikerken, and countless others like him, and the $10BILLION dollars, minimu, that are added to our already crazy Health Costs, as the costs of treating the ILLEGALS in ER’s and Clinics across this country, and strain on social services, etc.; it is an absolute and utter mess!
And finally, I’ll make an admission, one that will make you happy:
I’m a Racist!
I said it, it’s true!
I lived in Nigeria as a kid for 6 years, and Egypt as a teenager for 5 years. I attended University in Egypt. I lived in Spain for 3 years, and Japan for 2+ years. I’ve lived in, and visted for personal and professional reasons, 40 other countries, including Iraq.
My wife and step-daughter are from the Philippines; my cousin-in-law is from Peru.
I live in Atlanta, and ever single day, because of where I live, and work, I interact with: Mexicans, Brazilians, Indians, Pakistanis, Jamaicans, Nigerians, South Africans, Ghanaians, Gabonese, Egyptians, Iranians; you name it, I see it, work with it, live with it, socialize with it.
When I go out to eat with my family anymore, we don’t eat “American”; we eat Chinese, and Korean, and Thai, and Indian, and Brazilian and Arabic!
But aside from all that, I’m a “racist”, because there are two groups of people, that I don’t want here, and that I don’t want covered by that “bill”!
Mexicans, and Muslims/Arabs!
I don’t care what anyone says, I have over 30 years experience with both groups, and you know what, you know the reason I’m a “racist”, because I don’t want them here, because those two SPECIFIC groups of people, to the exclusion of all the others, HATE US!
Pure and simple FACT!
They HATE US, and they want to DESTROY US!
EVERY single experience I’ve had, with members of either group, over the past 30 years, they’ve demonstrated their hate and contempt for America, our way of life, our culture, and they want to destroy us!
Gautamalans, Nicauragians, El Salvadorians, Venezualans, Columbians, Peruvians; you know what? Import AS MANY AS YOU LIKE, I don’t care!
I’ve seen all those people and more, come here, work hard, contribute, settle down, raise families, and try to better themselves and American.
Brazilians, Nigerians, Gabonese, Jamaicans, Koreans, Chinese, Burmese; you know what, IMPORT AS MANY AS YOU WANT!
I’ve seen thousands of them, over the decades, and same as above, they come, they settle down, they work, and in time, they assimilate, and they don’t HATE US!
But Mexicans, they HATE us!
You need no further proof, than what happened to Miss USA and Tony Romo, in Mexico City the other night.
Ask Bikerken, he’s had the experiences.
I told you, after 9/11, down here in Atlanta, I can’t tell you how many cars I saw, driving down the road, with Mexican flag stickers, and the US Flag decal upside down, as a sign of respect, and received a Flipping off on passing, just to let me know, to get the message, “Fuck you” on 9/12!
I can’t tell you how open they are about it too; and how blatantly they will tell you, as soon as they start to talk to you, that they are going to get back California and Texas and New Mexico and Arizon, because it all belongs to them anyhow, and how we’re too stupid to enforce our own laws, and that they’ll “win” using our own courts and our laws and our own stupid, suicidal politicians against us!
I NEVER hear ANY OTHER GROUP talk like that, or admit it, EXCEPT…..wait for it…..the Muslims!
Yep, that’s right!
I won’t even get started on them; anyone who has seen me on this board over the past year plus, knows that I KNOW more about them, and their culture and religion, than anyone!
I’ve made studying them my life, for the past 30 years, I know them better than they know themselves, and I’m not afraid to tell them, or anyone, excactly what they are like!
You want proof, let’s go back to my Egptian “friend” I mentioned above!
Great guy, known him and his entire family for 30 years. He’s known my entire family, parents, brothers, etc., for 30 years. I went to school with him. We broke bread together. We socialized together. We got drunk together, and ate PORK together! We worked together! We even went thru similar hardships together!
He came the states legally; stayed illegally, got married, settled down, got amnesty, became a US Citizen, had kids, is raising a family.
He talked bad about his own country, Egypt, continuously, since I knew him. He came to the US, and stayed ILLEGALLY, to escape serving in the Egyptian Army; he wouldn’t even defend his own country!
He came to this country, and even though ILLEGAL, it gave him everything, that he wanted.
A wife, a house, land, jobs, money, cars, TV’s, kids, wealth, opportunity, freedom, legitimacy, etc.!
Spoke perfect english since I’ve known him, came from a moderate Islamic sect, and was NEVER radical. Attended not one, not two, but THREE seperate US Universities! Educated by the US, and in the US!
And you know what, we don’t talk much any more, very rarely now; because he knows he crossed the line with me!
He told me several years back, that despite the fact that he was a US Citizen, despite the fact that he suffered so much, to come here, stay here, and finally marry and start a family and become Legal, despite teh fact he had a US Passport, despite the fact he NEVER had anything good to say abou his country of origin, and that he ran away from it, so he wouldn’t have to serve IT! He told me: “I don’t care if I’m an ‘American’, and have an ‘American passport’, I’m still an Egyptian and a Muslim at heart, and I’ll never consider myself ‘American’, I’d never do anything to “defend” America, and shit on America, I could care less for the passport, or what America supposedly stands for!”
You know what, me, the “expert” on Muslims, was FLAT OUT STUNNED!
It was then, that I woke up, and relized, completely realized, what we a true threat we face in these people; they truly are, these two groups, the “enemy within”, and a cancer that we invite willing into the body of country, and they seek nothing less than our total destruction!
I wish, I could say, that that event, was an isolated one, with my “Egyptian” friend, but over the past ten years or so, I’ve had similar experiences with about a dozen or so FORMER “friends”, all from Egypt, and the ME, all Muslims, and similar enough, to let me know how they TRULY feel….
You contemplate that AJ and Terrye, this is coming from soneone who KNOWS!
You think about that, and really, really, read the import of my words, and understand…
So, I’m launching a Pre-emptive strike on you both, and any other posters on this board, who may so be inclined, I’m calling MYSELF a “racist”, against those two specific, and ONLY groups, because if I don’t someone else WILL, after reading this; and I don’t want to get bogged down in the back and forth of it all.
Instead, I want you to read my words, and understand, and I’ll cut the legs out from anyone who tries to label me a “racist”, by saying it first, and explaining why, and that way, you can focus on my words, and not your interpretation of my Political Correctness!
Retire:
Where will we get the agents? The same place we get enough concrete to build a 700 mile wall in less than a year, I guess.
So are you saying that allocating money to hire more border agents is a bad thing?
I tell you what, does that reading the bill work both ways? Or is it just people like me and AJ who have to read it?
I know I have seen some stuff out there that I know is not in the bill. But people just keep saying it. Like Day 1 we make all the hispanics voting Democrats, day 2 we kill the wall. So maybe we should make that requirement work both ways.
I never pretended to support everything in the bill. In fact I doubt if any of us would ever support everything in any bill.
There is currently no penalty defined for being an illegal immigrant. There is no punishment prescribed. This bill creates one.
There is currently no penalty defined for being an illegal immigrant.
Assuming you don’t consider deportation a penalty.
http://immigration.findlaw.com/immigration/immigration-deportation/immigration-deportation-overview.html
Where do all of you uninformed people come from?
Well I found the bill, so when I have time I will try to read it, at least an overview.
But if the only people who can talk about the bill or pass judgment on it are the people who have read the Heritage Foundation’s out takes or whatever, am I to assume that that all the people who were supposedly polled on this bill and do not support it have actually read it as well? I mean otherwise, what right have they to pass a judgment?
I think the majority are probably getting their information from sources other than the bill itself. The phonies.
Terrye, if you want to know where the BP agents will come from, why don’t y0u contact one of the BP locals, such as #2544, and ask them where they think all those new agents will come from. While you are at it, ask them how long they think it will take the Congress to provide the funding for more agents.
Now to all that concrete; perhaps we can use the concrete that was assigned for the TransTexas Corridor to make it easier for all those Mexican trucks to be on our highways. From the border to Kansas City and beyond. 700 miles of fence in a year? Hardly. So far, we have built two and they are not complete. At that rate, it will only take a thousand years to build the wall. The Chinese did better than that and that was 1,000 years ago.
Terrye, I have provided you link after link showing that Hispanics historically vote Dhimmicrat. Pew Hispanic Research Center claims it is at 49% with Hispanics voting only 20% Republican. So do you think maybe 49% of our newly minted ‘legals’ will vote Repubican? Is that why Hillary just hired the guy from LaRaza? Because he is a Republican?
As to the wall; it has never been funded. And the Fence Act of 2006 provided for over 700 miles of fencing. Now, this new bill has cut that to less than half. Maybe the bill next year will cut it to only 15 miles. And it still will not be funding. We can have a new saying “If you don’t build it, they will come”.
No, I don’t want just you and AJ to read the bill. I WANT EVERYONE TO READ THE DAMN BILL and see how our own elected elites are selling us out.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. We bought the b/s in both times from Teddy Kennedy, who should be in prison for murder. I will not buy it again.
Stop the flow of illegals; build the wall, punish those who steal American’s identity, do background checks with more time that 24 hours, end the anchor baby practice (and no, it is not stari decisis), end social welfare for those who are not even supposed to be in this nation and then get back to me. I will probably go along with some “comprehensive” immigration reform.
This bill is its own worst enemy. All I have to do is quote paragraphs and page numbers.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I didn’t write this steaming pile of feces.
This steaming pile of feces is brought to you by the same “wonder-duo” that brought you Campaign Finance Reform. That would be Ted Kennedy and John “F**k you” McCain.
And we all know what a wonderful piece of legislation Campaign Finance Reform was. 😉
That fact alone should be enough to deep six this bill and start from scratch. I shouldn’t even need to quote paragraph and page number. But I can and will, if anyone wants me to.
There is nothing that says a person MUST be deported. They CAN be deported. (Shall vs. May or Can or “is subject to”) each case is taken on a case by case basis. SOME are deported but it is up to the results of a hearing to decide.
This bill, if you are not here on a work permit, says that you SHALL be deported. It also explicitly ends “catch and release”. It will be illegal to release someone here illegally. At first they will allow someone caught to apply for the permit for some period of time after the law is enacted. But after that grace period ends, that’s it.
I still can not figure out what the people who are against this bill want. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to get rid of 16 million people when we only have less than 7 million total unemployed in this country. It would destroy our economy. We don’t have enough unemployed to take their place.
crosspatch What?
There is currently no penalty defined for being an illegal immigrant. There is no punishment prescribed. This bill creates one.
Would you direct me to the page and applicable verbage?
What you said is not true at all. This bill does not even address what you stated. As I said, page no. song and verse…..
Anybody wanta bet on whether I get an answer?
Apache:
I read some time ago that illegal entry is a misdemeaner and if deportation is all the penalty needed why did the House try to make it a felony a couple of years ago? If I remember correctly that kind of got a lot of this started.
Hey, but go ahead deport them. Fine by me. Of course it would be helpful if there were more detention centers and courts and a streamlined version of the deportation process to deal with the back log we have right now, but what the hell…so it takes a century.
But if the only people who can talk about the bill or pass judgment on it are the people who have read the Heritage Foundation’s out takes or whatever, am I to assume that that all the people who were supposedly polled on this bill and do not support it have actually read it as well? I mean otherwise, what right have they to pass a judgment?
I haven’t read Heritage Foundation’s opinion on this bill. I have been too busy reading it for myself.
I don’t need someone else to tell me what to think. I can read English and I can think for myself, thank you very much.
Do I qualify to pass judgment on it?