Jun 01 2007
Noonan’s Nonsense
Peggy Noonan is now blaming Bush for the far right’s three years of attacking moderates and attacking Bush on issues ranging from Miers, to Dubai Ports (another grand example of nativism which cost us cargo container inspection machines across the globe – paid for by our allies in the UAE) and now immigration reform:
President Bush has torn the conservative coalition asunder.
Sorry Peggy, but those who used the word RINO and who would keep the status quo on immigration at any cost (and with lots and lots of vitriol added in) are the ones who tore the conservative coalition apart. Don’t blame Bush. He didn’t accuse Miers of being a closet abortion rights activist, based on the muttering of one David Fromm who apparently had a personal vendetta against Miers. Bush did not go overboard when he allowed a perfectly legtimate business acquisition go forward simpy because the acquiring company was in the Middle East. A country that provides security and port services to our Navy and Marines in one of our largest overseas ports.
And Bush is not the one who will tank a bill that would finally allow us to deport immigrants who commit crimes (no – you cannot do that now since the law doesn’t allow it – which is why the cries to enforce the laws on the books are so naive). Those of us who support the guest worker program have been pilloried, while the far right goes on a hysterical tear claiming we are for open borders (no one is) and voting rights for aliens (no one is). And here is the essence of the insanity from the immigration hypochondriacs. While the Bill we want passed will finally allow us to remove the violent criminal immigrants (legal and illegal) from our streets, it is being held hostage by people who want more than a fine and back taxes from honest hard working people. Yep, that’s right. The bizarre logic on the right is it is beter to let the criminals roam around our streets so we can meet out more punishment on those fixing houses, doing women’s hair, landscaping, watching our children. When confronted with this cold, objective picture the far right goes on an even larger rampage. Don’t believe me? Watch the comments on this post and others.
Right now the far right has lost all credibility. I know droves of conservatives who are turning off talk radio. They can’t take the vitriol and self aggrandizing anymore. Radio microphones do not make one omnipotent. I can predict that the talking heads are going to see a huge drop off in loyal listeners. The fawning fans will still be there in some numbers, but the critical thinkers will have moved on. When a group of people would allow violent criminals even a month more in this country because the fines and penalties for the workers who toil beside us day in and day out is not a severe as they wanted then their priorities are screwed up. And yes, they are NOT doing what is right for America. Anytime we decide to let crime fester we are not doing right for America.
So Peggy, don’t blame Bush. He is still making sense. He would compromise with Dems to secure the border, get rid of criminal aliens and make it easier to find and detect terrorists. It is the far right who would throw all this away for some extra pound of flesh. Just like some liberals want to throw away the NSA monitoring program to get a pound of flesh from Bush. Peggy says Bush broke with them. I am here to say loudly I have broke with them too.
Update: Read more about dumb far right tricks. When you can be counted on to screw things up, then you cannot be counted on to govern well. Clearly the conservative movement that is aligned now repeatedly against Bush is out of gas. Their patience is exhausted and they are tired of compromise because it delays the coming of their perfect world. A vision they did not realize was not shared by all in every detail.
98 Responses to “Noonan’s Nonsense”
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I think Bush Derangement Syndrom (BDS) is reaching around the universe from the far left and is now gripping the far right. I turned off talk radio about threee days ago. No more. You guys lost me as a listener. Time to become an Independent. Enjoy your obscurity.
And Bush is not the one who will tank a bill that would finally allow us to deport immigrants who commit crimes (no – you cannot do that now since the law doesn’t allow it
AJ it appears that you are of the mistaken opinion that this new amnesty bill provides some mechanism for deporting illegals.
I’m betting you have not read the draft bill. If you have, what section and paragraph ‘allow us to deport immigrants who commit crimes’?
Let me ponder this for a minute, say there are 30 million conservatives in the country, including President Bush, and 29 million nine hundred ninty nine thousand nine hundred and ninty nine are against the amnesty bill and President Bush is for it and THEY are abandoning him? interesting angle.
So Peggy, don’t blame Bush. He is still making sense. He would compromise with Dems to secure the border,
How would that occur? This bill certainly wouldn’t do that. Why won’t he compromise with Repubs to secure the border?
The opinion polls sure say this bill has tanked, dead as a hammer.
You make a lot of references to ‘what this bill would do’ it sure would be helpful if occasionally you would actually say what provision in the bill would allow it to ‘do these miraculous things’
Those that have actually read the bill can’t find any miracles in it. Only complete capitulation to the illegals.
Note: this is the opinion of a ‘hardliner’ ( another name for those that want laws enforced) or is it ‘far right’ I get confused.
Peggy says Bush broke with them. I am here to say loudly I have broke with them too.
too? as in ‘also’? So you are saying Bush did break with them? Or did I not interpret that correctly?
AJ, if this bill would “finally” allow us to deport immigrants who commit crimes, under what authority are we doing that every day? Ciminals who have served their time and are illegals are being deported. Are you saying that the DHS is deporting illegals illegally now?
Sorry, AJ, the only one who has lost credibility is you. You don’t use the parts of the bill that would substantiate your claims (or previous laws that back up the absurd thought that we cannot NOW deport criminals) but hand us more vitriol on why we should march lock step with this bill. Would you like to take a guess as to the percentage of criminal deportees have come back into our country?
You on the left of this issue says that these illegals are in the shadows. Do you not have a Home Deport in your town? Are those people standing in the shadows who are trying to find day jobs? What about all those people that are violating your housing standards in your town? They in the shadows as well.
So go right ahead and ignore the fact that if we said that 60% of American kids did not have high school educations we would be hearing, loud and clear, “Washington, we have a problem” yet you seem to have no problem granting amnesty to law breakers from other nations that have never reached the 12th grade level. Tell us about those “family values” you seem to think illegals have when 50% of all Latino children are born out of wedlock. Tell us why there is such a large number of illegals (up to 50% of the prison population) incarcerated in just one state, Calfornia. Please, explain to us how people who have been raised with Pan American values (socialism) are going to suddenly accept our values.
This bill is nothing more than another experiment in social engineering. Please, tell me where that has ever worked before. And then you can explain to us why you think that making an uninvited guest return home is a “punishment”.
The bill talks about hiring 14,000 more Border Patrol. For what? With the very signing of this bill, there will be no more illegals in our nation. And people like the members of the Fort Dix Six will now be legal.
You are a smart man but your common sense has flown the coop on this issue. People who have no respect for our laws when they enter are not all of a sudden going to become respectful just because they can now utilize all the benefits granted to American citizens.
If you want to prove your argument, use facts, not emotion. Use the terminology of the bill itself and see if your opinions hold up. But I am afraid you will be disappointed.
This is ridiculous. I stopped listening to “It’s Bush’s fault” a long time ago. There’s something called “Godwin’s Law” that says the first person to bring up Nazis loses the argument; similarly, the person who starts railing against Bush loses me as a listener. Anything and everything is Bush’s fault, including hurricanes in Louisiana and tidal waves on the other side of the planet, and especially including the behavior of Bush’s supporters, Bush’s ex-supporters, and Bush’s enemies. Gee, Bush-bashers, it must be nice not to have any responsibility for the bile that comes out of your own mouth — after all, Bush is causing it to happen and you have no power to control it.
I’m getting pretty sick and tired of blogs and politics and news in general because of this garbage.
Excellent post. See mine at Called as Seen as well: No peace with Cella.
AJ
You are setting up a stawman that we can’t deport criminals.
Yes we can and do.
The are deported after their sentence because they are illegal aliens.
You don’t need the extra qualifier of having committed a crime.
We deport hundreds of thousands a year, some repeat offenders, so what do you think they are deporting them for, bad eyesight or what?
I don’t think Noonan is right in her assessment either. Noonan is about as far to the right as you can be on many issues. But I do not believe this bill will secure the borders and I do not think that the Dems intend it too.
R05,
I am not saying you should follow us. I am saying you should lose. Be clear here. You wanted this battle – you have it. Facts have no meaning for the immigration hypochondriacs. That is why they believe such silly nonsense as “enforce the laws”. Well, duh – if it was that simply it would be done. Everyone who mouths that demonstrates their ignorance. We cannot deport people for violent crimes – not in the law. We cannot hold employers accountable because there is no repository of checked and cleared immigrants. That is not in the law. We cannot have people work here and NOT gain credit for citizenship. You work here you gain credit. The new law would make temprorary workers ILLEGIBLE for citizenship.
And since you don’t know all this is NOT in the law you have no facts – just fantasies. And all you need to lose.
No FE,
It means your hate of immigrants is not different from a liberals hate of Bush – and personally I don’t support either end of the fringe. It means the new litmus test is: you for or against Bush’s immigration plans. Against? see ya. No vote. None. Ever. I voted for Chuck Robb over Ollie North. I see no reason why a moderate democrat is not heads and tails over a immigrant hypochondriac. Geez, even if you win you lose the Latino vote and will never be able to win elections again anyway. There is no way for your side to win – only lose.
You can me the rat jumping ship – but at least I won’t be the one drowning.
FE,
My asnwer to Peggy is up. We part ways – all of us. No more conservative coaltion until the far right starts respecting others.
Left by AJStrata on June 1st, 2007
AJ: what does this mean exactly?
“We”, who is that? Is that “you”?
“Us”, who is that, is that “Us”, as in your readers, posters, ??
“part ways”? What does that mean, are you going to quit blogging? Are you “mad” at “us”, because we disagree, and attempt to “discuss” this issue with you?
“respecting others”? What does that mean AJ, is that “code speak” for the dreaded “R” word….”RACISM”?
Now you have my dander up a bit!
I just want you to please answer these questions?
Because “we”, people like LE and Bikerken and Apache and MYSELF; because we want the following:
a) respect for our borders
b) respect for our culture and our language
c) respect for our flag
d) respect for our laws
e) the fact we don’t want any Jihadis, or Terrorists or Gang members, or Criminals, or Sexual Offenders, or Murderers, or Rapists, to get a FREE PASS with this bill
f) teh fact that we don’t suddenly want, an additional $2.5 TRILLION dollars in burden, added to the Social Security Administration’s burdern for Taxpayers, because of a sudden, blanket Amnesty for 12 million ILLEGALS!
And just because we want all that, we’re suddenly “BAD” people, and racists?
C’mon AJ; what’s up with that?
Don’t you think that those points that I outlined above, are the MINIMUM, that ALL Americans should WANT?
Did you ever hear me, or anyone else say “deport them ALL, because they have brown skin, and we don’t want them there?”
I’ve never said that, and no one here, has ever said that!
What have I said: “Import the entire damn country of Brazil or China or India or hell, MEXICO” if you want! But, I WANT them here LEGALLY, I want them paying taxes, and I DON’T want them raising the American Flag UPSIDEDOWN, while chanting LARAZA, LARAZA, this is OUT LAND!
If that makes me a “bad” person AJ, if that makes me a “racist”, and I said it yesterday, then fine, I’m a damn Racist!
But AJ, despite my repeated attempts to discuss this with you rationally, you’ve refused!
You refuse to explicity state, your reasons for supporting this “bill”, wholeheartedly, other than making comments about “the right” destroying the Republican party”.
You refuse to answer Apache and LE’s direct question: HAVE YOU READ THE BILL, and do you KNOW what’s IN IT??
Because, IF you have, you would see what they are saying; the Enforcement, and everything else, that you are saying are going to be “okay” because of this bill, IS JUST NOT THERE!
You’ve been “punked” AJ, but it is not by me, nor Bikerken, nor LE, nor Apache; you’ve been Punked by Teddy Kennedy, and John McCain, and by a Bush White House, that doesn’t even know what’s in the damn bill that they are insulting their own party over, and abandoning the very people that have supported him thru thick and thin, over the past 7 years!
I’m not Mad at you AJ, I’m not “screaming” at you in black and white, though I know when you read emails and posts, it looks that way; I’m just absolutely flabbergasted, and perplexed, by your stance on this, and why you say the things you do??
Besides AJ, THIS post, over at Capt’s Blog, plus the link to the Rasmussen Poll, PROVE that what you are saying, and what President Bush are saying, and what Tony Snow etc., are saying, about support for this “compromise” is just NOT correct:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/010051.php
The Rasmussen poll, SHOWS CLEARLY, that Republicans, Democrats, AND Independents, favor ENFORCEMENT FIRST, then to deal with the issue of a Guest Worker program, etc., etc….
Haven’t seen this poll being touted by you, the President, John McCain nor many others recently AJ.
Again, don’t take this personally AJ, I’m NOT attacking you personally at all, but I am a bit perplexed by your vitriol, and apoplexy on this, and then you attempt to turn it around on “us”!
From Britain’s Daily Telegraph via NRO…looks like their immigration debate sounds like ours…
“Given the scale of new arrivals here and the extent to which they are changing our society, the quality of debate over the desirability of this upheaval is miserable. And we all know why. Those who favour open borders have in effect gagged opponents by accusing them of “racism”. You don’t have to be against welcoming newcomers to be smeared as a Nazi sympathiser. You just have to argue that it’s an important matter, with some serious downsides, that deserves proper analysis…Cowed by human-rights campaigners, refugee groups and duplicitous politicians (mainly Labour and Lib Dem), seeking electoral advantage by demonising rivals who propose controlled immigration, we have created a monstrous democratic deficit. “
Aitch748 I don’t understand the point of your comment.
There’s something called “Godwin’s Law” that says the first person to bring up Nazis loses the argument; similarly, the person who starts railing against Bush loses me as a listener. Anything and everything is Bush’s fault, including hurricanes in Louisiana and tidal waves on the other side of the planet,
The first name calling I heard was ‘hardliners’ , ‘far right’ etc. I haven’t, at least on this blog seen anyone call Pres Bush any names. Correct me if that’s not right. I don’t see anyone bashing him either. Just disagreeing with him on an issue is not bashing. I agree with almost everything he does, I admire him, but he’s wrong on illegal immigration and man-made global warming. It doesn’t change my opinion of him. I just don’t see why he supports it, and he won’t say why, no one says why they are for it.. they just call names of the people that are opposed to it. No reasons, no logic, just name calling.
I live in Louisiana, and down here we blame Gov Blanco for the fiasco of Katrina, not the Pres.
Well, maybe I do see why you are getting tired of blogs.
Victor Davis Hanson has an excellent article in the Jewish World Review:
http://jewishworldreview.com/0507/hanson053107.php3
He makes far more strongly the point I hinted at in earlier comments responding to the WSJ editorial board video post: the solution to illegal immigration in the US ultimately lies not at our borders, but in the countries where the people are so desparate to leave.
Enforcing our existing laws and better border control helps, and may even help a good deal, but slowing the flow to a manageable level may ultimately require changes in the source countries. In the meantime, we — and that means all of us individually as well as the government — must be aware that the costs of illegal workers are not fully reflected in their wages and tax payments (to the extent they pay them), but in the vast costs for crime, health care and poverty, and the destruction of our values.
The next time you hire someone to cut your lawn, or do some painting or carpentry, make sure it’s a citizen or legal immigrant (boy did I have a row with my wife about that one – she’s the thrifty one!).
We don’t need mass deportations, what we need is situational enforcement: if an illegal comes to the attention of authorities at any level – from a hospital to a school or a traffic stop – they’re reported and deported. As soon as it’s determined they’re not legal, out they go on the next available flight. Solve the problem one illegal at a time, just as Rudy went after graffitti and street crime in New York.
What troubles me the most in this is that the group using tactics we usually find on the left — charges of racism, nativism and ad hominem attacks on opponents of this particular piece of legislation, is our very own Republican administration and supporters of the bill such as you, AJ.
Without reasoned debate that respects the views of both opponents and proponents of the bill, it will only embitter everyone and create opportunities for the left.
What is undeniably true is that some of the people involved in crafting this bill — specifically LaRaza and MeCHA — have truly anti-American agendas — and it’s undeniably true that some of the opponents may well be nativists or racists.
Reasoned debate means looking at at the actual text of the bill and what it’s likely to accomplish — both the alleged benefits and the alleged burdens and costs. And, frankly, the risks that it will not be implemented effectively in whole.
One point I’ve made, that I have not seen rationally refuted: what gives us any reason to believe that if we make little effective effort to enforce the laws already on the books to secure the border and to deal with illegal aliens now, we will make a greater effort after this bill passes. To the extent the bureaucracy is overwhelmed and unable to deal with illegals now, they will be even more buried after the bill passes – all of the elaborate (but unfunded) provisions for background checks and touch backs and back taxes, etc. will simply be ignored much as current law is ignored.
It’s not nativist or racist to be very concerned that the current situation reflects primarily a challenge to the rule of law, and to believe that the solution to a failure to uphold the rule of law is to change the law to say that which was illegal is now excused and legal.
Without the rule of law, this country cannot survive as we understand it. That is a fundamental truth: we’re not a country of any particular ethnicity or religion, but a country of ideas. And, our fundamental idea is the rule of law as limitation on the power of both elites and the mob. This bill smacks of giving in to a rather large mob.
BTW,
When Noonan and others demand only their portions of the Bill they want to be in and everything else is off the table then it is clear who is fracturing the party. It ain’t those telling the rest of us who support ALL aspects of the bill. So let’s stop with the silliness. The far right stomped its foot and the rest of us said ‘there they go again!”
Also the bill as the draft showed ONLY supposedly makes a path around the LAW of illegally crossing the border or overstaying a visa or whatever method you got here illegally.
It is well known that many now have also committed secondary crimes of false id’s , false social security accounts, so by the new law they would have to be tried and convicted on those other items, rather than just saying we found it out, they are illegals and we can send them home now without having to go through all the dog and pony show to garner the conviction on the secondary effects to toss them out.
I have personally been hit by the social security scams and thankfully it can be adsorbed by me, since I don’t have to depend on it.
1) I am probably not going to live long enough to collect it
2) I have enough income that my social security will be offset so much under the law that my monthly benefit will be almost non existent
I investigated the issue after Social Security contacted me and it seems my number was being used by three other people in California, Texas and Ohio.
Since I lived in Florida, that was a hell of a commute for work each day for all that reported income.
FE,
stop complaining about your feelings being hurt. Where talking immigration and you folks in the way of progress need a label. Get over it.
AJAYYYYY! You’re riled up, and unncessarily attacking FE; he’s never personally attacked you; he has a position, and it’s not yours, and that’s all!
He disagrees with you, as I do, does that make us bad people!
Don’t anyone, say anything you’ll regret on this Blog people…
I save that for all the other Blogs I don’t really like!
Everybody just calm down, we’re having a discussion here, not a knife fight!
I wrote:
It’s not nativist or racist to be very concerned that the current situation reflects primarily a challenge to the rule of law, and to believe that the solution to a failure to uphold the rule of law is to change the law to say that which was illegal is now excused and legal.
Should have said:
It’s not nativist or racist to be very concerned that the current situation reflects primarily a challenge to the rule of law, and to believe that the solution to a failure to uphold the rule of law is NOT to change the law to say that which was illegal is now excused and legal.
AJ
No FE,
It means your hate of immigrants is not different from a liberals hate of Bush
So, you’re as informed on this as you are on the illegal amnesty bill.
I specifically said I have had no bad experience with illegals as Apache, Dale and others have. I hate no ethnicity or race and I do not hate illegal aliens.
and personally I don’t support either end of the fringe.
but you clearly support the illegal aliens, wanting to give them immediate legal rights, which means no deporting, etc.
Against? see ya. No vote. None. What, I lose my vote in the next election? I missed that in the draft bill, but I didn’t miss where the illegal aliens do get the right to vote.
Why do you find it necessary to ‘name call’, why do you find it necessary to resort to threats of ‘not getting a vote’
Can’t you use the terms written in the bill itself to sell it? I haven’t seen you quote one single item from the bill to support your position. I’m gonna guess that’s because you haven’t found any.
AJ, if I lose, you lose. You lose in the higher taxes it will take to provide social services for another whole segment of our society that is at poverty level or below. You lose in the school taxes you pay to provide your kid with an education along with hundreds more whose parents pay no taxes. You lose in high insurance premiums because medical facilities and hospitals will have to bill your insurance company at a higher rate to offset the costs of “free” medical treatment for illegals. You lose in the strain that will be put on your police force, fire department, water supply, and all municipal services. And you especially lose because for the next four generations we will be, for all intent and purposes, a one party system with the Dhimmicrats moving us closer and closer to a socialist nation.
At least be honest AJ, and admit that somewhere down the line you have a dog in this hunt.
But when you come at me with your “far right” insinuations that I am a BushitlerRacistNazi, you should provide that part of the bill that backs up your claims of Nirvana through amnesty.
Good update AJ. The link has some good commentary from Kent Hentfling. Throw in Hillary’s speech on the need for a guest worker program that brings in more people with STEM backgrounds, currently here under H12B, and she actually makes some sense.
I never thought I would say Hillary makes sense. Thanks guys for pushing me over the edge. You all better get used to President Hillary Obama Edwards with super majorities in both houses. Politics is all about making a deal that is good enough today so that you can survive to make a deal tommorow to possibly improve your position further than you thought possible.
FE,
stop complaining about your feelings being hurt. Where talking immigration and you folks in the way of progress need a label. Get over it.
Left by AJStrata on June 1st, 2007
Where did I complain about my feelings being hurt? We’re talking illegal aliens and how to deal with them, and I stand foresquare on the side of solving the issue. But this draft bill has nothing in it that would solve any issue. None.
Do you personally ever plan to read the bill?
I am trying to rationally discuss this issue, as both Dale and Apache have asked to do, but so far, absolutely no response about the bill just name calling….
AJ
Surveys show 70% of the public want border enforcement first.
When did the hardliner right ever compose 70% of this country?
Do you think the only opposition to this bill is your self defined hard liner right?
I think the reality differs from that but we can honestly disagree.
BTW AJ
What is your position on Pres Bush’s new announcement on the US leading on controlling Global Warming?
Do you support him 100% on that? or is he wrong on ’some’ issues?
TomAnon: that’s nonsense, and you know it.
Besides, you never heard me, nor anyone else here, who opposes this bill for legitimate reasons, say SQUAT about the need for H1B Hi-Tech workers, and their visas!
As AJ knows, I work in the HiTech industry, specifically, and I KNOW a bit about it, and the fact is, Hillary IS correct; we NEED to increase the H1B visa allotment, and continue to encourage as many qualified IT workers as possible, to continue to come to America.
Hell, my neighbor, and one of my wife’s and I best friends, is an IT worker from MEXCIO!
Great people!
But GUESS WHAT!
They came here LEGALLY, on a TN1 Visa for an IT job, and they are NOT “LaRaza”; they are NOT standing down by the Home Depot every morning, looking for work; they pay their taxes, they pay their own Co-pay when they go the ER, they don’t fly American Flags upside down, they’re good patriotic Mexicans, patriotic towards Mexico I might add, but you know what, the DON’T disrespect America and say they want to take it back for Mexico!
LEGAL, WORK, not a burden on the Social Services, Respect; and you know what, I’d take another 2 million, just like them tomorrow!
But we’re NOT talking about THEM!
And yes, Hillary is right about the H1B’s, but you don’t need THIS bill, to address THAT issue!
So, if that is your ONLY reason for turning against “us”; you’re fairly swayable!
Politics is all about making a deal that is good enough today so that you can survive to make a deal tommorow to possibly improve your position further than you thought possible
But once you give away the store and all rights to it,, you are not gonna survive to make any other deal. You can only hope, in the case of this Draft bill that the illegals don’t get enough votes to vote your right to vote away.
Merlin,
Rassmussen is afraid to ask the real question: This Bill (a) or nothing (b).
2-1 people want something done and are tired of the far right saying only our ideas can be allowed to pass. They lost congress over this kind of stunt and now they are losing their credibility. If you think I am worried about this you are mistaken. I am absolutely happy it is happening.
So here we have illegal crossers for work or whatever being authorized to stay, but in Florida we see the strange concept of the wet foot/dry foot concept of political asylum for people escaping Cuba.
Someone please explain to me the logical disconnect with all that.
So if we catch you before you set foot on dry land in Florida we send you back to Cuba, but if you go through Mexico and cross the border you win the door prize for good status.
Lets not forget if you dry foot through Florida, you aren’t home free, you only get the chance to apply for asylum and you still risk getting sent back.
Rassmussen is afraid to ask the real question: This Bill (a) or nothing (b).
2-1 people want something done and are tired of the far right saying only our ideas can be allowed to pass.
What about?
This Bill (a) or nothing (b). the right thing (c)
people want something done and are tired of the far right saying only our ideas can be allowed to pass.
and they said this…..where?
and only our ideas means what? enforce the laws, secure the borders then establish a workable guest worker program?
Yea, who would want to do something that ridiculous?
AJ: that’s misdirection, and you’re smart enough to know it!
Rassmussen is not afraid to ask anything, he’s the best poller out there, period! Makes Zoby look like the pro-Leftist Jihadi supporter that he is!
He didn’t ask the question that you say, because it’s not relevant; and who says it’s the “real question”? Just because the poll has a result that you don’t like?
“2-1 people want something done and are tired of the far right saying only our ideas can be allowed to pass. ”
Does it say that somewhere in the Poll results AJ? Was that one of Rassmussen’s poll questions?
“They lost congress over this kind of stunt and now they are losing their credibility.”
Here you go with the “they”’s again.
Is that the “Republicans”?
AJ: you support President Bush in a 100% of the things he does. You’re primary motivation, behind wanting this Immigration Bill, boils down to one thing, and one thing only, so that by passing it, it can fool enough Hispanics into voting Republican, so that Republican’s can get back into power; that’s been your only rational displayed so far, despite repeated, polite attempts by myself, and others, to offer us some rational explaination!
Then, you claim, you’re glad the “far-right” is destroying itself over this bill, and that Republicans have lost power forever, basically because of the racist hardliners, like myself and Apache and Bikerken, etc.
Then, you get mad because unnamed people use the term “Rino” on people, but you claim you are not “hard-right”, not a “Rino”; etc.!
Where are you exactly AJ?
How can you be a 100% supporter of President Bush, in everything he does, not be a “hard right” conservative supporter, not be a “RINO”, not be a Democrat, etc.
Are you claiming you’re an “Independent”?
If so, why do you care if the Republican party has doomed itself, as you say?
And yet, the Rassmussen poll shows, that if you are an “Independent”, that even Independents, and Democrats, those to left of you, DON’T support this Bill!
You’ve got me REALLY confused now, AJ!
AJ
You keep throwing out that this thing or nothing stuff like those are the only choices.
The bill could be modified so all can be satisfied, but to get there it with destroy the gang of 12 backers because a good bill that realistically approach the issue would have little likelihood of support from the left.
I am not saying my way or the highway by that but saying the optimal bill is simply not showing broad support.
AJ , you yourself claim the right only consists of 30% of the country, so obviously the hardliners have to be some subset of that group and thus less than 30%.
The opposition to this bill as written goes far beyond that.
Direct question, asked by others, Have you read the bill??????
A simple yes or no.
I am watching the floor hearings, the bill itself is almost non existent in the proceedings, it is all about the amendments to the bill and not the bill proper.
There are only a few sections of this bill as written that are mandatory. The vast majority of them are phrased with pending funding loopholes.
Simple funding choices or non funding choices can morph this bill into a totally different concept to the bill of goods that is being sold.
AJ, illegal immigration has increased due to employers hiring them for sub-standard wages. The new bill will require that they not only be paid minimum wages but “prevailing” wages. OK, I agree with that. But you then have to ask if that is the case, what is the incentive for employers to hire illegals in the first place. If they are going to be required to pay a livable wage, why would they hire illegals? Why not legal American citizens? And will they lay off the newly minted legals when they have to increase their wage scale? Do you really think companies like Tyson Chicken will go quietly into the night and restore their wage scale to the level it was before they laid off American workers and started importing illegal workers? Or do you think that we will then see MASSIVE unemployment in the illegal sector? And if they are unemployed, who picks up the tab for the unemployment benefits?
For every action, there is a reaction. You do not want to address the reaction (mostly market) that will come with this bill.
You say “it is a good thing” but offer no part of the bill that proves that statement.
Argue the bill, AJ. Not your emotional reactions.
Senator Jim Demint has a piece for AJ to ignore at that Crazy Zany Nut Job Web Site I read: National Review. You know, those wackoes who have actually read the bill.
David frum had an email I’d like to share:
Another One of Those Foaming at the Mouth Yahoos [David Frum]
A reader copies me on a letter he sent Sen. McConnell.
I am so tired of the Washington elites and the media elites (especially Republican Senators) treating me like an ignorant, uninformed racist.
My wife and I have spent years working with Hispanic and Asian immigrants in poor, gang-ridden neighborhoods. We have taught English —- we have helped keep kids in school —- we have encouraged girls not to have babies when they are 15 years old —- we have done food and clothing distribution —- we have organized summer sports leagues.
What do Senators know about illegal immigrants that we don’t know? Nothing.
We don’t support the Immigration Bill because we are certain that it will make the problems worse, not better.
We don’t support the Immigration Bill because we are certain that we and our children will pay more and more in taxes and direct expenses to support schools and hospitals and fire departments and police forces by adding another 30 or 50 million low-income immigrants to the population.
We don’t support the Immigration Bill because we are certain that the same Senators who refuse to enforce existing immigration laws will refuse to enforce the new laws (except for those provisions that grant immediate legal status to present illegals and immediate legal status to all of their “chain migration” relatives).
Yes, Senator, my wife and I are getting angrier every day. We consider ourselves part of the informed, active grass roots Republicans that got George Bush and the current crop of Senators elected. We are disgusted with your performance and will not support any of you in the future.
I am leaving the Republican Party.
Dave Holsclaw
Castle Rock, Colorado
This particular yahoo has a Ph.D. by the way.
Yet more:
Divorce? [David Frum]
Another reader writes:
It’s not just a divorce. It’s a messy, mean, nasty, “war of the roses” type divorce.
I am a lawyer in the Midwest. For the last 6 years I have daily lunched with my law partners, all of whom are partisan Democrats. I have argued about and defended President Bush for those 6 years besides voting for the man twice. I’ve vigorously defended the president, especially his handling of the war on terror, and I’ve proudly taken all of my partners’ best shots about what a lying, incompetent we have for a president. And then yesterday I learn that the president thinks I don’t want what’s best for America simply because I oppose rewarding ILLEGAL aliens with an opportunity to remain legally in this country.
05/31 03:45 PM
It’s Divorce [David Frum]
That’s what has happened between President Bush and his party over this immigration bill. And if they insist on pursuing it, I fear it is what will happen between the Senate GOP leadership and the party base as well. The issue has already all but killed the McCain candidacy. A letter from a reader expresses the sadness and anger I see in so much of my mail:
I voted twice for this man and his abdication of the most fundamental executive responsibility, to protect our country from foreign invasion, is cause for regret.
Talk is cheap. The most responsible course of action that this president can take on immigration is to do nothing. Leave it for the next president. Focus on Iraq and then go home.
Signing this bill would render what little good he has done meaningless by comparison.
I wish he were already gone.
05/31 02:21 PM
The President Is Losing Me [Mark R. Levin]
I guess it’s legacy time over at the White House. The president is imitating Arnold Schwarzenegger now. Does the president have any conservative domestic initiatives that he’s actively pursuing? If so, I’d like to know what they are. Richard Nixon tried this when his ratings were low. It didn’t work.
Mr. President, the Left hated you the day you walked into the Oval Office, if not before. Their hate for you is frozen in time. If you actually believe in what you are doing, then I and many others misjudged you. You expanded the federal role in education, and we held our nose because of the war. You signed McCain-Feingold in the dead of night, and we held our nose because of the war. You expanded Medicare by adding prescription drugs, and we held our nose because of the war. You increased farm subsidies, and we held our nose because of the war.
Today you disparage us for opposing a massive amnesty program that endangers our economy and national security. Today you even embrace the religion of global warming, a stunning shift from prior policy (your administration even went to the Supreme Court and argued correctly that carbon dioxide is not a pollutant).
What’s a conservative to do?
05/31 03:40 PM
“Outsiders Like Us” [David Frum]
Robert Stacy McCain speaks (I’d guess) for a lot of people in this column in the American Spectator ….
Nor is there any need to insult the citizenry, as President Bush has repeatedly done, by telling us that illegal aliens are “doing jobs Americans won’t do.” My own daughter waits tables at Pizza Hut to earn her college tuition, my wife works part-time as a provider of janitorial services, and both of my brothers are truck drivers. Are my kindred not American, Mr. President?
06/01 06:33 AM
Who reads Peggy Noonan, Chris Matthews’ good friend, anyway?
And I believe the WSJ editorial board has read what is available of this bill-it is not a law. It is not even a completed bill…no?
FACTS.
I guess there is a constiuentcy in this country that wants us to have higher prices, an economic depression, high unemployment, high inflation because that’s what we’re gonna get from the naysayers…or worse. Misery loves miserable company. Or how ’bout this: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Look for this phrase thought the bill
“subject to the availability of appropriations for such
purpose”
Count the number of occurrences.
Then go see how the power of the purse can gut or twist it as the party in power desires.
It is a total Trogan Horse by Kennedy, since he believes they will maintain or expand their votes in the 08 elections due to the number of at risk seats.
Who reads Peggy Noonan, Chris Matthews’ good friend, anyway?
Kinda makes AJ’s “Far Right” comments look silly, doesn’t it?
I always thought of her as a calm, rational person myself.
this is the NEW position on Global Warming.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/32856c56-0f84-11dc-a66f-000b5df10621.html
I’m reasonably sure you don’t agree with the Pres on this. it is the anti-thesis to your normal position on GW.
I guess there is a constiuentcy in this country that wants us to have higher prices, an economic depression, high unemployment, high inflation because that’s what we’re gonna get from the naysayers…or worse. Misery loves miserable company. Or how ’bout this: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Actually, some of us would like the Entitlement Programs to be there for US, when we retire!
As for the Unemployement nonsense, 45% of Illegals, work off the books NOW! At LOW wages. Raise your Wages, enforce Workplace laws, and plenty of actual Americanwill aply. Ask Swift Packing about that. The RAISED their wages, and amazingly, they were able to hire Legal Citizens to replace their Illegal workers!
Yes, knowledge is a dangerous thing. Perhaps you should read some web sites that you are aparently avoiding! Might I even suggest reading some Alien Books! You just never know what you can learn from someone who spent a year researching this topic, then took 250 pages to tell you what they found!
Just a thought! Go on, give it a try, what do you have to loose, other than Ignorance?
What we have going on here if you look at the bigger picture is political gamesmanship.
Kennedy is has for over 40 years supported every form of amnesty or something near that is driving this bill.
So what are we seeing, more of a failed policy that is now supposed to fix all the problems.
The practical result is different.
The bill is an obvious wedge issue on the right, but no one is saying how much of a wedge issue it is on the left or the center.
If Kennedy gets his way, the eventual factors will give his party more strength and control and if it goes down in flames he gets another anchor baby to throw around the necks of his opposition.
So he is sitting in the catbird seat and just smiling.
It is regrettable to see that it could almost be concluded that AJ is appearing to take the position that there are those he deems to portray as saying “My way or the highway” and then apparently saying “My way or the other highway”.
It is a loss for all if we are down to picking between which highway to chose .
I sincerely hope I am wrong in this interpretation.
Swift Packing was a prime example of how a company CAN hire legal Americans and make money. Their last quarterly report shows a sturdy profit, even with having been closed down for a few days. What this is proof of is that market forces work. When companies have to adjust for market wages, they will do so. So the stock holder gets a $1.00 less in dividends. No one will object when the savings down the road (in killing the need for increases taxes) are to their benefit.
But all those newly minted legals who will be unemployed are of no concern to AJ.
Like I said; all politics are personal. AJ has just not revealed what dog he has in this hunt.
I guess there is a constiuentcy [sic] in this country that wants us to have higher prices, an economic depression, high unemployment, high inflation because that’s what we’re gonna get from the naysayers…or worse. Misery loves miserable company. Or how ’bout this: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Actually, some of us would like the Entitlement Programs to be there for US, when we retire!
The problem with the foregoing is that it is not at all clear that those results would follow from a reduction in the number of illegals working (mostly off the books) in the US. The reduced cost of law enforcement and health care from removing the illegals might well offset the increased costs to consumers. We simply don’ t know. It is clear that the prices of some commodities would increase, but it is not clear what other costs would go down. All that signifies, in economic terms, is a change in “factor prices” — some things cost more, others will cost less.
As to the sustainability of the retirement system: if the only way to sustain it for the boomers (and that includes yours truly) is to bring in massive numbers of illegals and legalize them — ignoring the long run effect of so many more people who will ultimately draw on the system (after all, as Keynes said, in the long run, we’ll all be dead, so it doesn’t matter once we’re through…), then we’d better deal with the problem now rather than simply kicking it down the road another generation or two.
BTW
In case any one wonders, I could care less about the political advantage positioning impacts of the bill, I am just about what is best overall about what will continue to advance our country into the future generations.
GWB at least got that part right, but maybe in another context.
AJ: I warned you a couple of weeks ago buddy!
You’re a good guy AJ, your heart is in the right place, you’re a smart guy, you’re a patriot, you call about America, you “get it’ on the Jihadis and the GWOT terror, you’re a decent analyst, and you have a neat Blog.
Those things alone, seperate you from the Leftist nutbags who hate America, and are Pro-Jihadi; who want to see the President, and America, fail, either because they hate their own country, or they just hate Bush so bad, they can’t see straight!
You AJ, you are NONE of those things, of course!
But I warned you several times before, and this is coming from a person who is a REAL analyst, who’s a trained analyst, and who has been an analyst for a living, and when people’s lives were on the line: do NOT fall in love, with your OWN analysis!
You have done that!
And you painted yourself into a corner, as a result!
“Falling in love” with your own analysis, is the reason we’re so screwed up in the ME and Iraq right now; because for 30 years, CIA analysts, fell in love with their own analysis on the WMD programs of Iraq, Iran, Syria, and others.
I, and cohorts of mine in the Marine Corps and Navy IC’s, used to spend copious amounts of time Debunking bogus CIA “intel” about the WMD programs of Syria, Iraq, etc.
And we usually won every argument.
Despite that, the clueless incompetent CIA “analysts”, were in love with their crap; and they put it for 30 years, and wouldn’t stop, and we happened to have a President, and a command stucture who finally believed them, and they sold a war to the American Public, based almost completely on that, and it turned out to be wrong, and as soon as it proved to be wrong, the traitorous bastards backstabbed the President and the country, by leaking crap that they didn’t believe their OWN stuff, that they had been pushing for THIRTY YEARS!
But I digress, my point is, don’t EVER fall in love with your own analysis, and you’ve done that on this immigration issue, and you’re stuck now!
And because you’re stuck, you’re becoming more and more hardline in your own position, calling people names, casting aspersions, and turning against the very people who support you, just to maintain your position, and you’re ignoring common sense advice, and evidence to the contrary, and shooting the messengers who deliver it!
I would suggest, with al due respect AJ, you need to listen to the “smart” people on this board (NOT me, I’d never include myself in that category); but people like Bikerken, and LE, and Cato, Apache, and RO5; listen to what they’re saying and asking you; it’s not unreasonable, and they’re trying to have a Discussion with you, and asking you questions.
Instead of answering, because you fell trapped by your own analysis, you’re lashing out and attacking them!
Just a suggestion, from someone who’s been there, and seen it…
No my sole reason for not following the Purists is this:
We want Enforcement first! = Box’em up and Ship’em home.
and, paraphrase,
A bad deal is worse than Staus Quo, so Status Quo it is.
Status Quo is bad, real bad as you all have pointed out quite well. This package addresses a lot of the problems we have today. You all have to learn you are only going to get half of what you want right now. You have to be carefull so as not to stretch yourselves out so far as to never be effective as a voting block again.
Teddy is gonna you beat you like a dead horse with this for the next 20 years… He doesn’t want this bill, can’t you see that? Spare me I know his name is on it. It is a feint, a set up, you are in a loose loose position here. Think and try to mitigate your loses.
Cato
Consider that even if we took the usual example trotted out of the cost of lettuce.
If you automagically threw out all the illegal lettuce pickers the meme goes lettuce would rot in the field and the cost of lettuce due to the shortfall would skyrocket.
Two problems here.
We are not the only place that grows lettuce, the price would only rise to world market prices including import cost overhead. Do you think for a minute that Walmart is going to pay 7 bucks a head for home grown lettuce if it is available for import at 80 cents a head wholesale except for a short term disruption?
If we can harvest tomatoes from developed special breeds that were just created for their ability to be machine harvested, how hard would it be to create a harvester for lettuce that is not a tender product and only simply has to be cut off at its base?
I would like to make some quick points and set the record straight.
1. I have not been personally affected by illegal immigration. This isn’t a personal issue for me.
2. I was however, personally offended by millions of people marching in the streets, waiving the MEXICAN flag, and demanding rights that they have no right to. I found that very offensive. I will be honest about that and admit it up front.
3. I am approaching this issue solely from a what is best for America (and the American people) perspective. But I will admit that is a complicated perspective. At least it is complicated for me. Because I don’t feel that a firmly entrenched Democratic majority will be good for America. I have been to socialist countries. You don’t see a lot of smiling faces in countries that lean heavily socialist. Those people are not happy campers. If anyone doubts that, simply go visit one. Don’t take my word for it. Additionally, I think the Democrats will capitulate to the terrorists, and I think that is a really bad strategy.
4. While I would like to see everyone who has entered this country illegally, go home and apply for legal entry, just like everybody else, I do realize that is never going to happen. So, as much as I don’t like it, I am willing to compromise (which is something I have not seen from AJ) and grant a path to citizenship for those already here. I do however think that we should set a some sort of standard on who gets to apply for that citizenship.
5. I do think this bill can be fixed. And I am willing to discuss what changes could be made that would make the bill more palatable to me. Sadly, I haven’t seen any of the proponents that want to even discuss compromising on this bill. The proponents have adopted a “their way or the highway” stance.
MOS2: you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right about the whole Teddy Kennedy issue!
My point exactly, from the other day.
IF Teddy Kennedy, and LaRaza (someone said this yesterday) support this bill, SOMETHING is WRONG with it!
Teddy Kennedy, over the past 40 years, has done EVERYTHING in his power, to hurt this country at EVERY opportunity; there is NO WAY he’d support this bill, if it was GOOD for America, and good for the Republican party!
What I can’t understand, is the number of Republicans, willing to commit political suicide for their party, by agreeing with him on this bill!
It’s like the Left and their overt support for the Jihadis!
IT …..IS …..LITERALLY…….INSANE!
Peggy Noonan has gone way off the track for many. You just have to have read lucianne.com in the past several years. It has nothing to do with her “calmness.” Content is the issue.
And as far as the attitudes of those who are attacking this bill are concerned, they remind me of this:
A car driving down the road. You are on the sidewalk at the intersection that the car is approaching. The light turns red. You have the “Walk” sign in green. You walk across the street. The car doesn’t stop at the light. You get run over. Killed. Even though you had the “right-of-way”, you are dead. Dead right. What a great place to be.
Being dead right is not going to end the madness that is happening right now in regards to illegals coming here. This is a very complex issue that involves more security issues than just closing the border. How about ECONOMIC SECURITY at a time of extremely low unemployment (thank you George Bush for this spectacular economy after terrorists have tried to take it down)?
MerlinOS2:
You’re probably correct: what I should said was that some factor prices would rise perhaps temporarily as other substitutes or alternative sources of supply were identified.
Most people don’t realize that agriculture of all sorts is subsidized, and the low prices resulting from the use of illegal alien labor is just another form of subsidy. Instead of being paid for directly in the form of price supports or the like, it’s paid for indirectly through the increase of police, health and other costs, as well as the intangible price of the destruction of respect for, and the rule of, law.
TomAnon
You are lumping the box and drop crowd which is the smallest slice of the pie here as what is the non reality.
At best it is the box and drop the problem children like all the illegals who ALSO happen to be gang members, convicted criminals etc.
The number of blind cornered box and drop or “declare open hunting season with a 30 bag limit” contention is just pure horse pucky.
The discussion here seems to be that any one who wants border closure first to stem the flow is against the comprehensive follow up measures at the same time.
I submit that defies the reality.
This bill talks about border first triggers to put all the other stuff in motion, but many of the triggers hang on the thin thread of being funded by future legislation and not being mandated if you read the bill.
So as the bill is written, if passed the illegals get probationary status and if no funding to support the trigger requirements comes forth in following years then the triggers can never be met and the rest of the bill is moot.
Please explain to me how that is a fix.
Cato: don’t even get into all that! I’m a farmer’s son; in fact, my family, going back to the mid 17th century, are Farmers!
Our family (direct line) by the way, are farmers back to the mid-17th century, and in fact, our family got title deed to land from William Penn directly, that later became the Eisnehower farm in Gettysburg PA!
Our family farm now, all 413 acres of it, is just 90 min away from that, on the Juniata river!
Anyway, the point is Farm Subsidies; yes, we have ‘em, ILLEGALS are another form of them, we spend over $40 Billion per year on Farm Subsidies (not counting the ILLEGALS); and then we spend another $10B – $20B per year, either storing the EXCESS stuff we produce, or GIVING it away for free, overseas!
It’s a CRAZY system, and if I was GOD for a Day, I’d end it overnight!
Nuts, nuts, nuts, but then, that’s another issue..
Cato and Dale
So can either of you explain to me how the subsidy of 4 cents a head on labor cost for example is not offset by 24 cents per head of social program cost shifting to the public sector?
BTW the numbers could be researched, but these are just example figures.
I would like to make some quick points and set the record straight.
1. I have not been personally affected by illegal immigration. This isn’t a personal issue for me.
2. I was however, personally offended by millions of people marching in the streets, waiving the MEXICAN flag, and demanding rights that they have no right to. I found that very offensive. I will be honest about that and admit it up front.
3. I am approaching this issue solely from a what is best for America (and the American people) perspective. But I will admit that is a complicated perspective. At least it is complicated for me. Because I don’t feel that a firmly entrenched Democratic majority will be good for America. I have been to socialist countries. You don’t see a lot of smiling faces in countries that lean heavily socialist. Those people are not happy campers. If anyone doubts that, simply go visit one. Don’t take my word for it. Additionally, I think the Democrats will capitulate to the terrorists, and I think that is a really bad strategy.
4. While I would like to see everyone who has entered this country illegally, go home and apply for legal entry, just like everybody else, I do realize that is never going to happen. So, as much as I don’t like it, I am willing to compromise (which is something I have not seen from AJ) and grant a path to citizenship for those already here. I do however think that we should set a some sort of standard on who gets to apply for that citizenship.
5. I do think this bill can be fixed. And I am willing to discuss what changes could be made that would make the bill more palatable to me. Sadly, I haven’t seen any of the proponents that want to even discuss compromising on this bill.
More on my lettuce example.
Consider a small family farm but still big enough that the family alone is not going to harvest the lettuce and requires labor to do the job.
If you did a full spreadsheet on the farm you would see the larger portion of cost we be fuel, seed, taxes on the land and water costs.
The labor portion is only a small part.
You have a crop you have worked over for several months and for most cases have for the farm example I am familiar with around here maybe have 10 or 12 workers in the field cutting the lettuce or cabbage and throwing it into the trailer your tractor is dragging around behind them.
Then you take it to a place that hires people to bag your crop at a packing house so you can put it on the market.
Looking at all the costs, the field hands are almost in the round off error.
Do the research and analysis and you will see that it is true.
Any one want to quote the price of a new tractor these days and figure out how many man days of labor it would take to come up with the same number?
Temporary Workers [John Derbyshire]
Dan Griswold, and other enthusiasts for the Senate immigration bill, lay much emphasis on the temporary worker program. as if this was a wonderful new development in U.S. immigration practice.
But we have had temporary workers programs for ever. There are currently six categories of visa covering temporary workers, listed on the USCIS website follows:
H-1B: Specialty occupations, DOD workers, fashion models
H-1C: Nurses going to work for up to three years in health professional shortage areas
H-2A: Temporary agricultural worker
H-2B: Temporary worker, skilled and unskilled
H-3: Trainee
H-4: Spouse or child of H-1, H-2, or H-3
So the right question to ask is not “Do we need a temporary worker program?” but “Why do we need another temporary worker program?” If, for instance, we need more fruit pickers, why doesn’t Congress just up the H-2A quota?**
And of course, as the immigration wonks have told us till they’re blue in the face, there is nothing temporary about temporary workers. Once you’re in, you’re in.
Case in point: me. I came here in October 1985 as a temporary worker, on an H-1B visa—good, in theory, for only six years.
I’m still here.
“Temporary worker program” is hogwash. There are no temporary workers, only settlers. I’m here to tell you.
———
**Answer: Because employers don’t want lawful, visa-ed temporary workers. They want illegal immigrants, who are cheaper.
06/01 11:12 AM
amazing what there is to learn out there….
still no reply….
The Sound of Silence
By The Editors
They never call, they never write. So far we’ve heard nothing official from the editors of the Wall Street Journal’s editorial page. They haven’t contacted us, nor have they posted another videotape from one of their editorial conferences, nor have they written anything in their pages or on the web about our debate challenge.
It’s funny: You almost get the sense they don’t want to debate immigration with us. This is odd, and a little disappointing. Odd because just the other day our friends at the Journal seemed absolutely certain that they could take all comers on the issue, that opponents of the bill had no real arguments for their position.
Disappointing because the Journal editorial page hosts an excellent and thoughtful crew of writers and reporters, who produce a robust and fearless page every day. In short, these are the type of people who ordinarily you’d expect to welcome a challenge and a good old-fashioned intellectual rumble. But maybe not on this issue.
Again, what we’re proposing is a Firing Line-style debate, two or three of us versus two or three of them in a public forum in Washington where both sides get to engage on the substance in an extended fashion. This would be a more substantive exchange then you can get on radio or TV. And heaven knows, there’s enough invective and sound bites to go around on both sides of this issue. This would be a way to elevate the discussion.
Judging by the response to our challenge in the blogosphere and talk radio, there is a real appetite for this kind of substantive, public debate. We’re ready to go. But from the Journal? Only silence.
I believe there is also a “EB-1″ visa for highly skilled, world-renowned, and indispensable talent. At least according to Charles Krauthammer, there is. I should research that.
MerlinOS2:
Don’t misunderstand me, I think that the amount of the actual indirect subsidy is significantly greater than direct benefit of reduced commodity cost – though I confess I did not know the .04/.24 ratio and would like to see the source for that.
Dale:
My agricultural roots go back to the 1630s in the US and considerably further in Europe… and are as recent as my parents generation as my mother grew up on a ranch in Oregon and my father’s family has had ranches and wineries in California since before the turn of the 20th century. We’ve both benefited from and been harmed by, depending on the ranch/farm and the time and place, by federal farm subsidies and programs.
The system is crazy, but you don’t turn down “free money”… when you’re getting more of a benefit than you’re paying in burden.
Of course, that’s the problem with this illegal immigration problem: individual business and employers believe (probably wrongly) that they are getting an immediate, significant benefit, while the burden is being hived off onto others, at least for the most part.
Cato
As I clearly stated in the example I was using they were not actual numbers but only an illustration example..
There are many studies out there that show that the unskilled labor market is in fact a “loss leader” of labor cost reduction v social cost impact.
Just a case of someone taking advantage of someone else having their ox get gored. But then the person taking advantage has to balance if their tax payments to support that social cost contribution from their profits exceeds their labor cost savings.
I submit that that is clearly not the current price point.
If it ever reaches it then this whole situation will go ballistic.
FE:
The point of my post was simple, if you don’t assume that I am talking strictly about you or even about this website only.
For seven long years, I’ve watched the plague known as Bush Derangement Syndrome spread and metastasize. I’ve seen President Bush pilloried for everything bad whether from the hand of Man or the hand of God. People on the Left have been doing this for years. People on the Right (some, anyway) started doing it with the Harriet Miers affair and have been doing it since. If Peggy Noonan is now blaming President Bush because the Right is starting to come apart because some on the Right are so angry about issues that they don’t even care what putridness comes out of their mouths, while others on the Right have begun to lose respect for people in the first group, even if they too are angry about the same things, then I have lost respect for Peggy Noonan. President Bush is not America’s Puppetmaster and is not to blame if people start flying off the handle.
My point wasn’t to blast So-and-S0 as a hardliner or as a “my way or the highway” type.
My point wasn’t to suggest (as Linda Chavez did, rightly or wrongly) that however poorly this latest immigration bill has been handled, some of the anti-amnesty anger is coming from people who express anger not about our government being cavalier about enforcing existing law, but about having to put up with those filthy Mexicans and their filthy language.
My point was this: If somebody opens his mouth to blame President Bush, there is a 95% chance that I will immediately stop listening. That was my point. If the Left spends seven years crying wolf about how “Chimpy Shrub McBushitlerburton” is cancelling the Bill of Rights and turning America into a theocratic dictatorship, I’m not suddenly going to perk up and listen just because some on the Right have started in about how “El Presidentissimo Jorge Boooooooooosh” is making a deal with Mexico to trade in the dollar for the Amero and to have America cancelled.
Stevevvs
You missed one of the biggest issues due to no fault of your own.
It is the H1-L visa which addresses employees of a foreign subsidiary or entity.
Lets say Bill Gates has all those legacy employees who got stock options at the birth of the company and now are multi millionaires working coding desks.
He is having to pay the mid baby boomers 70K a year pay plus dividends to get their work out of them.
On the other hand he can either farm out (outsourcing) or bring in someone from MS India or Brazil or Bali who has the same skills for 22k per year plus 17k per diem to do the same job as a replacement or and additional staff member rather than hiring another local at 60k starting wages.
Oh and this person has no citizenship path, has to stay with the same company, can’t be offered a job advancement or promotion during the visa duration. They are locked into the one job they had at the beginning of the visa, and in most cases are only allowed to bring themselves and not their family without a chance of advancement and it is limited to 2 years if I remember correctly.
Then they are sent home and the next crop is harvested. Even though you still have the subsidiary worker now back home and still working for you.
Stevevvs
The other interesting point is that all the other visas have specific caps on numbers, but the H1-L visa has no caps unless I have missed them.
This is the semi truck loophole that many have been driving through for a long time.
Almost as profitable as the yen carry trade.
Merlin: Hi, I actually work with Visa IT candidates, so I know a bit about it.
I think it is correctly called a “L-1″ visa; those people can bring their families, you are correct; I also was under the impression it was open ended; but the way it really works, is that foreign workers can only get it, if they work for a company that has it’s HQ in the US, and a foreign subsidiary, then they can come to the US, IF they work only for the same company! The loophole is though, that another company, can sponsor them for an H-1B, and steal them away!
Sorry, can’t answer your question, wish I could!
Stevevvs: the only way, LEGALLY you can still be here, is that you converted your H-1B into a Green Card, and then citizenship, but your point is made!
Hello AJ:
I stopped reading the Corner during Harriet Myers debacle (you are so right about Frum); stopped listening to Sean Hannity (his constant claim that he is a “Reagan conservative” drives me crazy – how come he has no problem over Reagan’s amnesty bill?) with his ridiculous outrage over Dubai port deal; now it hurts me even to think of turning off Rush Limbaugh. I have been such a loyal listener, not even missing a day: always making it a point to listen to him on my i-pod coming back home from work. Yesterday was the first day I did not listen. It comforts me to know that I am not the only one thinking that way. You have been my voice and a very eloquent one at that. Thank you very much for keeping me sane.
I am an immigrant (from India) myself. I came here as a student (single mother with a 10-year old son). I had to wait 10 long years (during which time I got my Ph.D – yes this yahoo has a Ph.D – and a job in one of the colleges in NY), paid thousands of dollars, before I got my green card and after another 5 years got my citizenship. My son got his green card after another 10 long years. So, I will be extremely angry if people, who got here illegally, get their citizenship automatically. But I do not see that in this bill. We let criminals, with a worse crime than sneaking inside this country, to lead a normal life after an appropriate punishment. There are so many legal immigrants who have overstayed here and have become law-breakers. Why is it so hard for some conservatives to accept a humane punishment for these law-breakers that would punish them but not their daughters and sons? You describe their “bizarre logic” very well. Regarding the comments I read here, pointing out the anti-American attitudes of these illegal immigrants, have these people not seen the anti-war protests by our citizens? I have seen legal immigrants from India and other countries bash American culture and touting their own superiority – I have always ended their rant by asking: what is stopping you from going back? You can find bad apples anywhere! I can only conclude that half of us are seeing a glass half-full and the others are seeing half-empty. Apart from feeling that it is the right step to take, I think it is also advantageous for us conservatives to see it half-full, get a political majority and then fill it up with our own ideas!
MMYTHILI: I’m seriously glad you stopped by, I don’t agree with everything you said, but it’s good to get your perspective!
I work with Indian’s everyday by the way, I’m an IT recruiter!
I think, our only point is, with this Bill, we don’t Trust, what we have seen of it, to be a serious enforcement of preventing further ILLEGALS coming in, and of appropriately punishing the lawbreakers that are already here!
I know what you went thru for your citizenship and GC, my wife and stepdaughter have gone thru it too!
There, we agree!
But then again, we’re not worried about people like you, or my wife!
It’s the ILLEGALS, who are going to break the SSA, and get off scott free from any form of punishment/fine, etc., by this bill, that concerns us.
We KNOW that’s true, because Teddy Kennedy is sponsoring this bill; that means, it’s the absolute worst bill possible, and the “conservatives” who are supporting it, are being fulled, willfully, or ignorantly, by it!
AJ, I can not understand the logic behind your statements. First of all, the whole uproar over this immigration bill was totally aimed at the contents of the bill itself, this wasn’t even his bill, he didn’t write it. It wasn’t shifted to President Bush until he jumped the shark and started attacking his own party over what is in the bill. Now he’s made himself fair game for critcism of his opinion.
Why do you keep saying the far right wants it all their way? First, the far right is getting NOTHING they want in this bill, the far left is getting EVERYTHING they want. Who is refusing to compromise? Second, this bill is opposed by a same or HIGHER percentage of democrats AND independents than republicans and you are athunderously silent about that. ?? Obviously, when a bill has no majority of support in any demographic, it is not the fault of the FAR anything! But democrat pols will try to make it look that way.
Also you mentioned those who “would keep the status quo on immigration at any cost”. This debate is not about immigration, it is about ILLEGAL immigration. Why does that one word seem to never pass your lips? And we don’t want the status quo, we want it stopped.
And this statement is absolutely stunning: “While the Bill we want passed will finally allow us to remove the violent criminal immigrants (legal and illegal) from our streets…” WWHHHAAATT in the living blazes are you talking about. It’s at this poing that I visualized you looking at this bill in a mirror and not noticing that the values are reversed. We have laws to deport people simply on being here illegally, let alone criminals. And we do routinely deport illegal aliens. There is a facility here in San Diego called the Corrections Corporation of America facility (CCA) in our daily work jargon, that deports people for varied reasons every day. The effect of the bill would be to stop deportations altogether. Your statement is exactly the opposite of reality! The bill actually has made allocations for gang members! There are over 30,000 members of MS 13 in this country spread all over. That is just one gang. In LA alone the numbers are estimated to be between 40 and 60 thousand gang members. This bill would have them just sign a form, “Renuncification of Affiliation” and they get the same temporary, renewable every two years, status as everyone else. How the heck is that a benefit to this country? Talk about bizarre logic!
I have to parrot the same question I have seen asked here several times but not answered, have you read the bill? Also, if so many democrats are against this bill, why are they never refered to as the stubborn hard left?
The RNC has seen a 40% drop off in contributions since they started pushing this steaming pile of legislation. They have fired all 65 of their phone bank donation solicitors. Peggy Noonan was absolutely right, Bush is destroying his own party and as someone who voted for him twice and still admires and supports him on the war, that is sad to see.
Dale
I am not surprised if I am lost in all the nest of visas, asylum reasons and all the other numbers that have been slipped into many bills over the years almost like ear marks.
We have seen Cambodians , Vietnamese and others slipped in on the wayside.
Hell a shipyard I work at just to do my bit to support the Navy of my past has a paint shop crew that is almost 85% Bosnian. Now tell me that is just an accident.
mmythili,
I am sorry to hear you no longer listen to anyone on radio, or read the National Review. Your free to do that, but I think You will loose a lot of Knowledge by doing so. What so many miss, I guess, is that is this bill actually gets thru the House, which is unlikely at this point, every Alien here now Illegally gets a free pass. Bill supporters call it “probationary status,” but the effect will be to give law breakers legal status and thus access to Social Security, Medicare, some welfare services, and our court systems. And just like that, the main purpose of this immigration bill will have been realized.
We are again told that AFTER this is done, then we will secure the borders. Well, we have had 8 or 9 Amnesties AFTER 1986, and still, no border security, only promises. Now some like myself can be fooled once, but after a while we would like what we were promised in 1986, BEFORE, yet another Amnesty. It’s that simple. But we are charactorized as “The Far Right”, and worse, because we no longer believe our Government on this issue. There are over 600,000 people roaming free as we speak on Expired Visa’s, and our Government does not know where they are. They are “Living in the Shadows” so to speak.
I thank you for coming here legally. You are my hero in that. But some of us just don’t trust our Gov’t. anymore on this issue. While others, for reasons that escape me, seen to believe them, yet again.
I would love for you to leave the Strata Spere, and return to the Third Rock From the Sun. Look around the web, there are a lot of Knowledgeable people out there. Might I suggest. Free Republic, click on Aliens, read whats there. Steyn Report, Numbers USA, Michelle Malkin, the corner at National Review.
David Frum was one of George Bush’s speach writers, was he not.
I’m surprised so many attack Peggy Noonan. George Will also dislikes this bill. I always viewed both as calm, cool, collected, mild manored reasonable people.
I have to go to work now. Take care folks.
What no one wants to take into account is market demands.
When the Bracero program ended in the ’60’s, tomato farmers screamed that they would lose their crops due to the lack of farm workers. But American ingenuity and creativity kicked in and wholla! the tomoto harvester was invented. Now most tomato farmers use the harvester because, IN THE LONG RUN, it is cheaper. Harvesters do not get sick, they don’t get in fights and wind up in jail, they are there every day. And when averaged out over the life of the harvester, they cost less than illegal farm workers and are more dependable. The end result? Tomato harvests were greater with less loss and the price of tomatoes actually decreased.
So do we need 12-20 uneducated farm workers or do we need ONE engineer who can design a piece of machinery to do the work and a couple of factories that provide Americans with jobs building the machinery? The bottom line is that the farm industry has been the last to come into the 21st century and has failed to mechanize with the times. Cattle were once herded on horseback. Now it is done with small aircraft and ATVs. Two ATVs have replaced the cowboy.
The labor costs attached to a head of lettuce is less that the cost to package that head of lettuce and the scare tactic of saying that lettuce is now going to cost $5.00 a head is just so much smoke and mirrors. Sorry if I am not buying into that.
How do you deport 12-20 million people? You make it not worth their while to be here; no jobs, no social services, no medical care except for REAL emergencies, no public housing. When there is no longer a reason to stay, those who come for only what this nation can provide in benefits, will leave.
What everyone who agrees with AJ seems to fail to acknowledge is that immigration should be designed to benefit the host nation, not the immigrant. The billions of dollars that are sent south of the border will continue to leave our nation. No immigration bill making people legal to stay here will eliminate that. Those dollars will still not make it into our economy while the cost of maintaining those who are uneducated and have a high out of wedlock birth rate will continue to climb with the taxpayer being hit harder to pay for them.
One more reason to SECURE the border; and by the way, this story is NOT BS….MS13 aids Jihaid intent upon Nuking America
LOVE your post, mmythili !!! Excellent.
On other things Dale google yen carry trade and pad your old age account.
Borrow at less than 1% , invest in a mix of junk stuff at 14 to 22 % and don’t care if one or two of those tank to maybe 7%.
As long as the Japanese central bank holds interest rates like they have, check out the movement in the last 10 years, it’s just a simple matter of playing the float or however you want to define it.
I am not working the high end junk stuff in the trade, I am putting it into tax free stuff here because of tax optimization growth rates to hit the sweet spot.
In a post 9/11 World, while fighting a global war on terror, do you -
a. secure your border
or
b. pat down Granny at the airport
Like I said before, I fell like I am living in some sort of alternate reality. It is upside down world and I want to go home. I don’t like it here.
To ignore how few of the portions of this bill are mandatory and how many are options to be later funded ignores the risk of political manipulation in the aftermath.
I suggest all parties in this debate read it, and I could not do that more strongly.
Apache
It seems a bit strange that my granny who went with me on a flight to visit her great grand daughter could get touched and examined in ways that I would kick the butt of anybody else who happened to be the lush across the street from her house or the pervert two blocks over.
Merlin: Hmmmm, thanks for that, I’ll check it out!
Apache,
You are such a hypocrite. You have said many times you would rather see nothing change than let this bill pass. Don’t get all into security now – you don’t mean it and we all know it because you said it. You are afraid of illegals getting legal status after fines and restitution. You don’t give a damn about security. Those of us who want to find terrorist are the one’s pushing for the guest worker program so we can spend our time looking for terrorists. Not nannies with papers. The sad thing is you people actually don’t see the hypocrisy in your own words and actions. You all have your own form of BDS.
Merlin, it’s insane isn’t it?
It is upside down world. I don’t understand it, and I don’t like it. I want to go somewhere where up = up, down = down, and water = wet. I’m tired of people trying to convince me that up = down, left = right, and a bad idea is really a good idea. I want off this crazy bus.
AJ: okay AJ, you win! I’m not posting on THIS TOPIC anymore!
You’re not rational on it, and you are SO defensive, because you’ve boxed yourself in, that you’re paying NO attention whatsoever to our questions, our logic, our evidence, you don’t answer the very pointed and germane questions we ask, and all you do is “love your own analysis” and hurl invective as a result!
That’s cool, it’s your Blog, you do as you wish; but you’re doing way worse, that what you are accusing all of us of doing!
I don’t understand it!
So, I will not comment, on THIS TOPIC again, I will not ask you any more questions, etc.
I’ll let it go, and move on to topics we DO agree with, such as the Jihadis!
AJ,
You have said many times you would rather see nothing change than let this bill pass.
That simply isn’t true AJ. I have made two attempts today at setting the record straight. Neither attempt made it through your spam filter.
What I have said in the past is that I would rather do nothing at than do something that makes the problem worse. I have been very clear about that. You are misrepresenting what I said. That is beneath you.
If you don’t secure the border prior to making everyone here legal, it will create a mad dash for the border. The mad dash will completely overwhelm our border patrol. And during that mad dash, it will be much easier for a terrorist to mix in with the crowd and make it into our country.
It is also not very humanitarian to further entice the poor and the needy to the South of us, prior to securing our border. People die in the desert trying to sneak into our Country, AJ. Many women are raped and abused by the smugglers. This bill, in its current form, will only entice more people to take the chance.
So this bill is bad from both a national security perspective and a humanitarian perspective.
I don’t have any dog in this fight (if you don’t count love of this Country – but I am assuming that we all love this Country). I am approaching this from a rational perspective and a what is in the best interest of America perspective.
Apache
Nope it’s not and upside down world.
Read any of the European blogs and think of all those we have running for office.
Read Egyptian blogs, Finish blogs, Indian blogs and newpapers.
Europe is having it’s fits and that is because they are 15 or 20 years ahead of us on the curve that some seem to want to place us.
Don’t get the hubris that we are some how unique and immune.
Every thing you see on the left here today has already been field tested down to the last small portion in Europe.
The only question left is if we can be herded just like them as they have been or just bypassed which is the more close reality.
Death by a thousand cuts does not imply a specific time line, just an end result.
Dale, that is an excellent idea.
Dale, that is an excellent idea.
Thank you AJ.
AJ, thank you for responding rationally and in concise fashion to Peggy’s bag of emotional angst. She makes me crazy and I end up stuttering and responding with as much emotional disarray as she emits. Her last week’s column was like a bad LSD trip, or one of the chick flicks on Lifetime for Women channel.
This column of hers is a bit more organized — or honest at least — and she is getting closer and closer to fully exposing her Bush Derangement affliction and her real agenda which is… what, exactly? Not sure, but she means to tear the whole mess down and build Peggy’s World for her new pals in Conservative La La Land. (What a partying Wonder Bread & Elevator Music place that’ll be, huh?) I do give Peggy credit for coming forth as a “broken” spirit (really a RINO as you point out). I disagree with her completely, but I wish her well on her trip to that wonderful new place where all is calm and well, and no one ever disrupts Peggy’s fragile sensibilities.
Is it my imagination, or are the proponents of this bill obsessed with personal attacks against people who don’t agree with it??
What is up with all of the personal attacks? Is this some new strategy for convincing people this is a good piece of legislation? Do they really think that strategy will work?????
If you want to convince me this is a good piece of legislation, I have a suggestion. Talk about the bill and be specific. Quote section and page number. Tell me why those sections are good for our Country.
Don’t hurl insults. Don’t call me a hardliner or hypocrite or deranged. That isn’t going to convince me that this is a good bill. And I rather doubt it is going to convince anyone else. It also reflects poorly on those doing the name calling. You aren’t helping the cause of the bill, and you aren’t helping yourselves either.
Apache – Funny, I didn’t notice Peggy citing chapter and verse of THE BILL. My response is on the same level as hers. And admittedly, probably just as irrelevant.
The personal attacks have been flying for several years now… and were begun by Far Rightists intent upon whipping up an issue to advance a private agenda which is becoming clearer and clearer to average people. For many moons, this crowd has inundated the airwaves with allegedly all-consuming, Armageddon-level, Life or Death stats, threats, loaded language & bumper sticker phrases, and scary scenarios that lie just over the horizon should we fail to heed their warnings and drink of their draconian bromides.
If you feel insulted, it may be because you are as emotionally entangled with the less visible agenda items as Peggy obviously is. I was there for awhile too. It really helps to turn off the noise and use your own powers of observation to see if the sky is falling, or if the invading hordes are really poised to capture D.C. within weeks.
I don’t feel insulted. I feel sad. I am sad that there are people who would prefer to silence rational debate by hurling personal attacks. I am sad that there obviously won’t be a rational debate on the merits of this bill, ant that means that the problem goes unfixed. And that isn’t good for our Country.
Well, kiddo, we agree on something. We DO need rational debate on the merits of the bill! It is possible, as the WSJ editors suggested, that the blowhards will take 3-4 weeks to run out of gas, and then an actual debate can commence. I don’t know about that… I can’t claim to predict or understand much of what is going on now — it’s just too noisy and overheated. Time will tell.
Don’t refer to me as “kiddo”. I am far from being a “kid”. And you aren’t my parent. And you aren’t my superior. And we aren’t friends.
You can’t stop yourself from personal attacks, can you? You do it without even realizing that you do it.
Funny how some say we need debate and we will get there eventually but they have not answered any of the specific questions offered for debate.
How does that balance exactly?
In the last several threads on this topic multiple specific objections , not generalities or pablum rejection as implied, but still our specific questions go unanswered.
Read back the thread if you have to.
Well, let’s just say “kiddo” was a family-friendly moniker — in an apparently vain attempt to keep things civil.
I am relieved to know I am not your parent, but miffed that you don’t think me superior. As for the friends issue… don’t be so sure until you’ve tasted my Penne a la Vodka.
AJ, this is my first post here. I read your post everyday and just haven’t got around to leaving a comment.
I agree completely with you about Peggy Noonan.
First of all, she is not the POTUS and can’t fill his shoes.
And her brain does not operate on a level anywhere near his even though she thinks her brain is supreme, better, whatever?
This article of hers is the second one that really ticked me off! It reeks of sophisticated snobbery because she knows how to use words to cut someone down in a Miss Manners style. As if she is operating on some level that is beyond our President – a level that he couldn’t possibly understand. All nonsense of course.
Such pride from a has-been. No longer important except in her mind.
Hiding behind words that she put out there in the public’s eye.
I also sense a religious snobbery – perhaps a judging of morals and so-called superior religious knowledge.
I’m really tired of the cesspool of Washington and the talking heads who think we are a bunch of dunderheads out here in America.
I believe in President Bush and trust his judgement.
I don’t trust or believe in most politicians or the people who think they run this country.
Keep up the good work and don’t let the cut and run, no honor or loyalty people get you down. They’re just plain wrong. They will pass away and President George Bush will, in ages to come be given the honor he deserves for saving our country.
A lot of nonsense being hurled about here, and mostly from the proponents of this bill. Getting control of the borders first doesn’t mean immigration ends and won’t be harmful to the economy. A lot of misreading of the polls — big majority want borders secured first & foremost. Most on the right are willing to compromise and do support a guest worker program — it’s the left that’s against it! And Peggy Noonan is rational and astute and more articulate than anyone here, and of course, she’s right about Bush.
A few notes
“I guess for the umpteenth time we have to remind the immigration hypochondriacs that the 9-11 attackers WERE HERE LEGALLY!!!”
Wrong – Five of the 19 were illegal aliens, including the ringleader Mohammed Atta. Enforcing out immigration laws would have probably stopped 9-11. However, the deeper point is that all 19 were ineligible for visas to come to the United States under existing law. Why did they get visa? Because Bush will not enforce our immigration laws under any circumstances.
“The immigration issue has created a fissure because the far right, who have a lot of what they want in the Bush bill”
Wrong – Rasmussen polling has show that the vast majority of Americans oppose the Senate bill, not just the far right. Why? Because the demand border security and they believe that this bill won’t provide it.
Wrong – There is virtually nothing of substance in this bill for the large majority of Americans who want real immigration reform. “Boob bait for bubba” is what the supposed reforms amount to. But don’t worry, the Amnesty is instant and brutally real.
“This bill finally makes deportation a punishment for committing violent crimes, including DUI’s. Right now you cannot deport someone for the commission of a violent crime. You can only deport them for being here illegally.”
Wrong – Legal aliens have been deportable for serious crimes for decades. Illegal aliens have always been deportable. You know nothing about immigration law.
“In fact, the hypochondriacs would let the status quo remain, with criminal immigrants staying in country, because they want more punishment on those workers who do not have a criminal background.”
Wrong – Criminal immigrants do stay in this country in vast numbers because Bush and friends refuse to enforce out existing laws. Check out the facts. We already have the laws to deport these people. They are ignored.
“Right now we cannot hold employers accountable to any real level because there is no repository to check if a worker is a valid immigrant worker.”
Wrong – We already have a mechanism for detecting the use of fraudulent employment documents. It is called the Social Security “no match” system. However, Bush allows corporations to massively cheat. Some companies have a 1000 workers using the same SSN. Others are allowed to submit SSNs with all zeros. How exactly is the Amnesty bill going to change that?
“And the best aspect of all is the guest worker program – where not a soul is eligible to become a US citizen”
Wrong – To quote from the agricultural/immigration economist, Philip Martin, “there is nothing more permanent than a temporary worker”. They won’t go home after two years, they will simply become part of the next wave of illegal aliens.
To be blunt you appear to know almost nothing about immigration law or how our laws are not enforced.
You are also ignorant of the terrible impact that ordinary illegal aliens (the ones who are not terrorists and violent criminals) are having on our country.
The Senate bill rewards law-breakers and does nothing to improve actually border security. Don’t believe me? Read it. I have. If the sponsors actually thought that this bill would stop illegal immigration, then the Amnesty would come last and the border security first. However, they know that the only provision that will ever have any effect is the Amnesty which is why the Amnesty is immediate and the rest is a fiction.
Don’t kid yourself and don’t try to fool the American people. This is an Amnesty First, and Amnesty Only bill. Don’t believe me? Read the first sentence of the bill.
“I believe in President Bush and trust his judgement.”
Wow, the last Bush believer.
I didn’t think any still existed.
So sad.