Jun 01 2007
Immigration Hypochondriacs Killing GOP
In a follow up to my post about how Noonan, and the others tyrannical right (and I mean that because if we other conservatives want something in an immigration Bill the far right does what it can so no one get’s anything but what they themselves want), we now have the far right killing off the party by withholding donations – which does nothing but help liberals get elected.
You heard yesterday that the RNC canned its in-house phone bank employees, partly due to an estimated 40% drop in small donations. Whoever they outsourced the job to is not gonna get those numbers back up.
I happened to be at my friend Emily Dunham’s house when the RNC called to see “at what level she was comfortable renewing her contribution.” It went a little something like this.
Ring, Ring
Emily: “Hello?’
Caller: “Hi, ma’am, this is the Republican National Committee calling.”
Emily (aside to me, with a big grin on her face): “It’s the RNC.”
Caller: “We’re just calling to see at what level you’d be comfortable renewing your contribution. Would $75 be all right?”
Emily: “How about nothing?”
Caller: “Oh, why’s that?”
Emily: “I’m not real happy with the immigration bill.”
We all KNOW liberals want to surrender to al Qaeda as soon as possible and dismantle the NSA surveillance program which monitors calls by known terrorists OUTSIDE this country to people inside the country. We all know this. And yet the tyrannical right is deliberately undermining our efforts in a hissy fit of paranoia at any progress whatsoever on immigration.
As I pointed out before the security enhancements, the ability to deport any immigrant (legal or illegal) for committing a crime (not for being illegal which takes time and too much process) and the ability to provide a tamper proof ID which employers must verify are ALL going to be defeated if the far right get has its way. I doubt it will. But when I said the far right better NOT blackmail this country with our security over this issue I was serious. Either lose gracefully or forget any coalitions in the future – just leave the party. Please. The far right is into punishing everyone who disagrees with them. Immigrant workers, conservatives, everyone. Take your marbles and go home.
AJ
I don’t think it is just the folks you call the “far right” or the “tyrannical right” that find fault with this bill. From the polling I’m seeing in the last 48 hours – left and right are falling away – and not the fringes of each ideology as you implied.
Most people are not opposed to the legalization they want to see the border security first. They want to see the fence, the barriers and the additional border agents and then they will agree to the legalization. And we already have a guest worker program – the congress can enhance the current program (already have 5 different levels of visas) to increase guest workers if that is what we need.
If everyone who disagrees with this bill were to leave the party – not sure how much of a party would be left.
AJ, you are one of the few blogs I read regularly, but I just have to skip over your immigration posts. I am for greatly expanding legal immigration. I can’t understand ANYONE who favors our current system of massive illegal immigration, except for La Raza racists who want to turn the southwest into Azatlan. An amnesty bill, without closing the border to illegal immigration, will cause an even greater flood of illegal immigration. To be in favor of this garbage is to not even value the rule of law!
Yes it is nonsensical to abandon the field to a Democrat alternative that is even MORE pro-illegal-immigration, but you have no credibility on the underlying issue.
It seems perfectly rational to me, AJ, to withhold contributions to the Party if you don’t like the legislation the Party is pushing.
You’re right that the immigration issue is ripping the Republican Party asunder, but I think you’re wrong on the substance and I am certain you’re wrong on your “go along or go to hell” attitude.
I’ve been a Republican (but not traditional or social conservtive, I’m basically a classical liberal strong on defense) since I started going door-to-door for Ike in 1956. I worked for Goldwater and for Nixon in 1960, 1962, 1968 and 1972 and for Reagan and the rest.
I’m depressed about the future of the Party. It’s bleaker than it was after Watergate and Dick Nixon’s resignation and it’s bleaker than it was after Barry Goldwater’s trouncing by LBJ.
I think there is a significant chance that the Republican Party will go the way of the Whigs, who split over slavery. And, I don’t think that bringing forward a deeply flawed immigration bill represented any kind of reasonable way to deal with the situation the party found itself in after last November.
Nor is the name-calling on both sides of the debate within the Party and the right more generally. The bill is defensible on pragmatic grounds, but a reasonable man or woman could as easily conclude that the compromises contained in the bill are worse than the status quo and prefer to focus the nations efforts on enforcing, however piecemeal, existing law.
What troubles me the most is that you will not even acknowledge that reasonable people can differ on the merits of the bill — that most of us have not even read in full (I’ve read parts but not every jot and title) — but insist that it be supported or we go to hell.
It is perfectly rational to be extremely concerned, based on the historical record since 1965, and especially since 1986, that the enforcement provisions to which you always point will be simply ignored or not funded.
There are many many out here who feel as AJ does. I was disgusted at the way the Party whiners (Noonan, Kristol, et al) destroyed Harriet Miers, Dubai Ports and now immigration reform. They are worse than the loony moonbats and far more destructive. President Bush does not recognize their God complex so they sit in wait to destroy him. The damage they do and have done has cost us the 2006 election. It isn’t Bush it is the self-proclaimed elitist right who are cut from the same cloth as John Kerry and Al Gore.
There are only two things we should be concentrating on as far as illegal aliens are concerned. We should do everything we can to tighten the borders and keep out the illegals and the terrorists and we need a very sophisticated database with instant access for employers and heavy employer sanctions (even jail time) for those who do not use the database to weed out the illegals. And we need to do away with every law that says we need to provide bilingual voter ballots, instructions, driver’s license exams, etc, etc. Just as it is illegal to state age in a help wanted ad, it should be illegal to require a potential employee be bilingual. More Americans get eliminated from good jobs because of this bilingual requirement than they do because of the number of illegals vying for American jobs. Get that part done and then we can start to concentrate on what to do with those here illegally who are hard working and not violating the law in any other way besides the fact that they are here. First things first. GWB understands this but this isn’t about immigration, this is about power and the whiny far right epitomized by Noonan and her ilk have been out of power and now they see it in THEIR INTEREST to demonize GWB. They are the “country-club” Republicans and are every bit as out of touch as the “limousine liberals.” If Ronald Reagan were alive and could speak today, he would be appalled at what this group says and does in his name.
The Republican Party of the Reagan years was powerful because it actively brought into the party those of us who didn’t drop out of some ivory tower. We are the military families, the hard working families mostly living from paycheck to paycheck but believe in individuality and independence and still believe in the American Dream. We are those who love NASCAR and football and 4th of July celebrations. We love to feel good about our country. We aren’t stupid, even if we don’t have a dozen titles or degrees behind our names. We hold the mid-level jobs which mostly we worked our way into after starting at the bottom or at minimum wage. If we were lucky enough to attend college, we worked our way thru starting in a community college. We don’t see ourselves as entitled to anything we haven’t worked hard to attain.
We don’t join forces with the enemy propagandists and denigrate or try to destroy our President, even when that guy was Clinton, who we couldn’t stand, because we understand that in doing so we weaken America.
If I remember correctly Noonan said that the Republicans should stay home in 2006 and let the Democrats win. How is that working out for everyone?
People should remember that Bush never lied about his stance on immigration. It is the same today as it was when his approval rating was 70%. And back in the olden days of 2000 and 2004 no one seemed to feel the need to go crazy over this issue. So maybe these folks should be blaming themselves.
I think the far right will kill the bill. They will not be capable of coming up with a viable alternative however, so they will hand the issues to the Democrats who will beat them over the head with it.
This is a compromise, and compromises by their nature mean that someone has to give something up, and we are dealing here with people who refuse to do that. Remember Buchanan? The last time he ran he got 1% of the vote.
I would prefer to see this bill pass with some amendments. I know people are worried that the funding won’t be there or that the enforcement will not come first, but if the bill is passed they can and should hold lawmakers accountable to see that these concerns are dealt with, but just throwing the whole thing away because you are afraid it won’t be perfect means that nothing will ever get done. And so far the people doing the most yelling have not come up with anything better. They just attack what is there and make impossible demands. There is a certain political reality we have to deal with here, it is not as if we can just make a list of demands and get what we want. Never works that way in politics.
I was reading the other day that 1.5 million Asians are here illegally. These people did not walk here. Just building a wall will not stop that kind of illegal immigration, we will have to be able to keep better track of people who are here. Otherwise all those folks you think you are stopping by building a wall, will just find another way into the country. After all millions already have. The wall needs to be part of an overall approach, not the entire strategy.
But I have begun to think that there are people on the right who are as loony as any on the left. I have heard the conspiracy theories, the racial slurs, the attacks on the integrity of anyone who disagrees with them. Do I think that everyone who opposes comprehensive immigration is a racist? No, I don’t. But I have heard comments from people that make me wonder just who some of these folks are.
So while the majority of people will support the different facets of the bill, such as a guest worker program and legal status for some of the people living here and more border security… they might reject this bill just to shut up the debate. It is depressing and distressing and a lot of people just want it to stop. And then of course the people will decide that this is an issue Republicans are not capable of dealing with like rational people and that could be very bad for the next election.
Squiggler wrote: There are only two things we should be concentrating on as far as illegal aliens are concerned. We should do everything we can to tighten the borders and keep out the illegals and the terrorists and we need a very sophisticated database with instant access for employers and heavy employer sanctions (even jail time) for those who do not use the database to weed out the illegals. And we need to do away with every law that says we need to provide bilingual voter ballots, instructions, driver’s license exams, etc, etc.
If that were all the bill did, I’d support it.
Terrye wrote: I would prefer to see this bill pass with some amendments.
I suppose with appropriate amendments I could support the bill, too.
HOWEVER, the much more important question is, if the bill cannot be amended, do you support it AS IS? That’s AJ’s litmus test. Even after 50 years of active participation in the Republican Party, I just can’t.
Squiggler:
Yes, I know. My grandparents were migrant workers during the Dust Bowl after they lost their farm. They actually worked those fields along side migrant workers from Mexico back in the dirty 30’s. Today people say that if we just pay Americans enough they will work the fields again. Puhleaze, I bet none of the people who are in a panic over Mexican laborers picking lettuce ever had to do anything resembling that kind of work. My family are and were soldiers, farmers, carpenters, nurses, school teachers, roughnecks…the sort of people who work for a living.
What do you think the chances are today that if a natural disaster like the Dust Bowl hit a state Americans would go out and work as field hands to feed their families? Zip I would say. And we can be sure that the Peggy Noonans would not be among them.
Terry, please provide us with some of the context of Bush speeches when he was campaigning for president in 2000 that explained his stand on illegal immigration or even immigration as a whole. I think you will find it quite hard to do that. He didn’t lie about his stand, he never talked about it.
Or better yet, show us where he discussed immigration during his campaign against Ann Richards.
Yes, the Chinese are coming across our southern borders. Why don’t you check before you say something so totally off base. Two months ago, a friend with a ranch in Kennedy County found 23 illegal Chinese on his ranch. He called ICE and they were picked up.
And of course, we are forced to tolerate your “I have heard conspiracy theories, racist slurs” yada yada yada. BY WHOM? Or is that just more of your drive-by slander to win brownie points for you who cannot understand that this bill is not a “compromise” , IT IS AMNESTY FOR LAW BREAKERS WHO WITH THE FIRST SWIPE OF THE PEN WILL BE LEGAL RESIDENTS, GANG MEMBERS INCLUDED.
Bury your head in the sand along with AJ, if you will. Just promise me you will pick up my tax tab for the services they will be entitled to once they are legal and all those awaiting deportation are released.
So tell us, Terrye, how old is this grandmother of yours that had a Latino cutting her grass? And gee, if she worked the fields in the 30’s she would have to be at least 87 years old. So perhaps instead of letting her hire an illegal, you could have gotten off your duff and cut her grass for her.
Nah….that would require some effort on your part.
aerwals,
Well, maybe you should stop skipping over my posts and understanding my positions better. The current bill does two things. it takes the 12-20 million here now and gives them legal status IF they did not commit any crime, IF they pay back taxes and a fine. Otherwise they are deported. That will allow us to deport the criminals and deal with the hard workers here. Then, they can chose a path to citizenship (at the very end of the line) or the temporary guest worker program. Citizenship requires an addition fine to be paid.
Second, the temporary guest worker program limits the number of workers, but more than that it limits their time here. 4-6 years max. Then they must leave. That actually will REDUCE the immigrant population over the status quo system which has allowed the population to build up and grow because it is underground and not managed and legal immigrants simply overstay their visas. Also, guest workers are NOT elligible for US citizenship under the new bill.
Now where in the hell did anyone say they were for massive immigration? Oh yeah – you folks who keep us locked into the current status quo. I am not for that and this bill, despite all the twisted fantasies out there, is not for it either.
The law breakers pay a fine and back taxes. Just like many other law breakers of misdemeanors. Or were you not aware illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? Paying a fine is not amnesty – it is punishment. You can repeat your basless claims all day long – but the fact is all your gripes remain in place if this bill fails and it will be the far right that make it happen. The problem future problems and crimes from immigration will all be thanks to the efforts of the far right.
AJ writes, “Either lose gracefully or forget any coalitions in the future – just leave the party.”
First AJ, you are losing, and not gracefully I might add.
Second, are you actually telling people to leave the party that you don’t even belong to? Who are you really AJ?
Well Cato, I said I would prefer that there were some amendments. I did not say that the whole thing was crap or that Bush was a criminal or that anyone who supports it is a dummie or any of the other crap I hear every day out of some of these restrictionists, hardliners whatever you wanna call them.
There are things in the bill I do support and I think it is better than the status quo. And if people feel the way you say then perhaps they should put their time and energy into negotiating changes in the bill to make it better rather than just acting like spoiled brats.
Bikerken,
I am winning gracefully! And I was proposing those who blacklist the GOP should leave so the rest of us can get it back on track – duh! I would join up if the hot heads would leave.
Retire:
She was born Florence Scoggins in Indian Territory, in 1903. She had two children. My mother and my uncle. She married at the age of 19. She had a farm with my grandfather in south central Oklahoma. She died in 1997 at the age of 93. Her yard man went to work for her after her only son died of lung cancer when she was in her 80’s, my grandfather had passed away some time before. She hired the man you refer to her because a neighbor recommended him and she was too frail to keep up the work herself. My mother could not help her because she was blind due to a degenerative and genetic eye condition.
Anything else you want to know? Done calling me a liar?
You see this is the point. I vote for the same party you do, but because I don’t agree with your stance on this one issue, you can not even be respectful with me.
Bikerken:
Republicans make up a minority in this country. The only way they can win elections is by appealing to Independents and crossovers. And right now it seems to me that Republicans are doing a pretty good job of screwing themselves up without worrying who AJ is.
Terrye,
Your answer begs the key question: if your choice were the bill AS IS or no bill, which would way would you go.
I agree there are good things in the bill, as well as things I think are incredibly bad. That doesn’t answer the question of what to do, however.
I negotiate deals for a living as an M&A lawyer. One of the most important things to know, before you get into a negotiation, is what your bottom line is. What your best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA) is. In this case, I think a reasonable person could come down for or against the bill as is.
But, it is incredibly important, before you start negotiating with the other side, to know how far you’re prepared to go. Otherwise, you risk succumbing to the momentum of the negotiation to reach some agreement, as if it is always better to do the deal than not to. That’s how bad deals get done by smart people: they just don’t want to admit that the alternatives to doing the deal are better than doing it on the terms offered.
That’s also a point I think AJ misses: compromise is only viable if the outcome is acceptable. Not all compromises are acceptable. The ones that are acceptable are those that are better than the alternative of no deal. However, if one believes the compromise is worse than the status quo ante, given the alternatives, one should rationally oppose a deal.
I’m certainly prepared to consider supporting the bill with enough amendments, but my bottom line is that it’s not acceptable as is. What’s yours?
And retire:
I knew Bush was a supporter of a guest worker program and I think the point you are missing is if it was all that damn important, why weren’t people like Noonan asking the questions then? I have no intention of wasting my time looking for links. If you want to find links, go google it yourself.
I think Thompson will run as the antiimmigration candidate, but ten years ago he was cutting deals with Diane Feinstein and supporting increasing the numbers of foreign workers. Look it up. Now he will recreate himself and run as someone else. To please the base, kind of like a Democrat running on Kyoto knowing full well the Senate will kill the deal and save his ass.
But Bush’s position has been consistent and the fact remains that the man has been president for all these years and all of a sudden people who think this is the most important thing in the whole wide world are getting around to talking about Bush’s immigration policies.
Most of those Asians came here on legal visas and stayed over. Half of the illegals here did not cross that border. It is a big country, there are a lot of ways in. What was that wall the French built? The one that was supposed to keep out the Germans, right up until they went around it.
Terrye, why should I show you any respect? I remember the slam you gave me about rounding up all illegals in Nazi styled cattle cars. And you didn’t answer the question; why did you not cut your grandmother’s lawn yourself?
I live in Texas where illegal immigration abounds. I remodeled a 105 year old home, adding over 1,000 square feet to it and DID NOT HIRE ONE ILLEGAL to do the work. I paid a little more but the people that subcontracted under me were American citizens and the money I paid them stayed in our economy and did not get sent to Mexico or some other third world nation.
Here is a little story for you; a friend just recently bought his great-grandmother’s home which had to be moved. The movers had to take the roof off due to the height. But to save money, my friend found a group of illegals to put a new roof on. They were supposed to be there two weeks ago. They never showed on the day they were to be there and it rained, HARD. Now my friend had to rip out all the sheetrock, still has no roof and his house is full of mold on 90 year old boards (that were under the sheet rock he had to rip out), on the pine window facings and door facings and now he has insurance problems as they have refused to insure the house due to the mold. All this agony just to save a few hundred bucks. Last Friday he called my roofing contractor (an American) who sent a crew over Monday to get the roof on before the rain started again.
So please, while you are mopping up the blood from your bleating heart, realize that I deal with illegals everyday. There is no escaping them. I damn near got arrested when an illegal grabbed his crotch and yelled obsenities at my daughter because I got in his face. I have watched illegals throw a rock through an applicance store window in a small neighboring town because the owner did not speak Spanish. I have watched my school taxes increase because of the number of illegal children in my district. I have watched my sales tax increase to the maximum amount allowed by state law because of the services provided to illegals in my state. Try $3.7 BILLION just last year. Crime and gangs in a small town that never had a murder in it’s entire history until an illegal shot a cousin two years ago. And let’s not forget my stolen SS#, Angel Resendez riding the rails just two blocks from my home, killing three people I casually knew in Weimer, Texas.
You want my sympathy for these hard working people? You are not going to get it. My family has been here since before the white man appeared and the other side migrated from Ireland LEGALLY.
I am all for immigration when it serves the interest of the host nation. This bill serves the interest of the illegal alien.
Are you willing to pick up my tab for the extra taxes that are going to be needed to provide them with social services or not?
Cato:
I would accept it because the status quo is worse and because I don’t think the hardliners are going to get the kind of bill they want through this Congress or any Congress we will see in the near future.
And many of the fears I hear from the right, their distrust of the government not doing its job…will not be something any bill can rise above. That distrust will always be there, even if they get everything they say they want.