“I guess for the umpteenth time we have to remind the immigration hypochondriacs that the 9-11 attackers WERE HERE LEGALLY!!!”

Wrong – Five of the 19 were illegal aliens, including the ringleader Mohammed Atta. Enforcing out immigration laws would have probably stopped 9-11. However, the deeper point is that all 19 were ineligible for visas to come to the United States under existing law. Why did they get visa? Because Bush will not enforce our immigration laws under any circumstances.

“The immigration issue has created a fissure because the far right, who have a lot of what they want in the Bush bill”

Wrong – Rasmussen polling has show that the vast majority of Americans oppose the Senate bill, not just the far right. Why? Because the demand border security and they believe that this bill won’t provide it.

Wrong – There is virtually nothing of substance in this bill for the large majority of Americans who want real immigration reform. “Boob bait for bubba” is what the supposed reforms amount to. But don’t worry, the Amnesty is instant and brutally real.

“This bill finally makes deportation a punishment for committing violent crimes, including DUI’s. Right now you cannot deport someone for the commission of a violent crime. You can only deport them for being here illegally.”

Wrong – Legal aliens have been deportable for serious crimes for decades. Illegal aliens have always been deportable. You know nothing about immigration law.

“In fact, the hypochondriacs would let the status quo remain, with criminal immigrants staying in country, because they want more punishment on those workers who do not have a criminal background.”

Wrong – Criminal immigrants do stay in this country in vast numbers because Bush and friends refuse to enforce out existing laws. Check out the facts. We already have the laws to deport these people. They are ignored.

“Right now we cannot hold employers accountable to any real level because there is no repository to check if a worker is a valid immigrant worker.”

Wrong – We already have a mechanism for detecting the use of fraudulent employment documents. It is called the Social Security “no match” system. However, Bush allows corporations to massively cheat. Some companies have a 1000 workers using the same SSN. Others are allowed to submit SSNs with all zeros. How exactly is the Amnesty bill going to change that?

“And the best aspect of all is the guest worker program – where not a soul is eligible to become a US citizen”

Wrong – To quote from the agricultural/immigration economist, Philip Martin, “there is nothing more permanent than a temporary worker”. They won’t go home after two years, they will simply become part of the next wave of illegal aliens.

To be blunt you appear to know almost nothing about immigration law or how our laws are not enforced.

You are also ignorant of the terrible impact that ordinary illegal aliens (the ones who are not terrorists and violent criminals) are having on our country.

The Senate bill rewards law-breakers and does nothing to improve actually border security. Don’t believe me? Read it. I have. If the sponsors actually thought that this bill would stop illegal immigration, then the Amnesty would come last and the border security first. However, they know that the only provision that will ever have any effect is the Amnesty which is why the Amnesty is immediate and the rest is a fiction.

Don’t kid yourself and don’t try to fool the American people. This is an Amnesty First, and Amnesty Only bill. Don’t believe me? Read the first sentence of the bill.

Odd I thought it was the Republican elite who are intent on throwing away control of the Senate and House as well as the Whitehouse. After all if a good portion of your base if not the majority are literally screaming at you to slow the heck down its not a good idea to call them bigots, racists, unpatriotic and the rest of that nonsense. After all the Republican party is supposed to reflect us…not us them.

At the very basement level it is a terrible idea to codify lawbreaking as a legitimate way to get ahead. If you don’t understand why AJ then I recommend you read Bill Whittle’s latest piece. Right and Wrong and how we treat those who choose to ignore right and wrong are exactly what make this country what it is.

President Bush does not understand right and wrong…he does not understand that laws matter and that they need to be followed. He needs to read Bill Whittle’s piece as well but truthfully I don’t think he has the ability to understand.

There are things in the bill I do support and I think it is better than the status quo.

For example?

Not true. Even MS 13 members get legal status

In fact, this bill takes deportation off the table. This fact has been quoted verbatim from the bill many times.
but here it is again:

(C) May not be detained for immigration purposes, be determined inadmissable or deportable, or removed pending final adjudication, etc

If anyone believes this bill will stop under the table workers you really need to put down those adult beverages and read the bill.

The five points are all in the bill, but the problem is they are all OPTIONAL not REQUIRED..

That is the weak point of this bill. Please read it and see for yourself.

I read in the WSJ that immigrants will pay more in social security taxes than they will collect. Is this true? I don’t know, but I know that not all these people are bad. That does not make me a bleeding heart. That is just common sense.

Cato addressed that very well but now lets examine another aspect.

Many illegals have paid into social security under false ID and then have left to return home.

At first blush this is great, they supported the system and won’t take anything out.

Sounds good. Until you realize the OTHER impact.

John Doe who had all those statements mailed to him over the years saying that he was going to get x dollars a year retirement check was based on a lie of the inflated income Jose was adding to the pot.

Social security was sending no match letters to Jose’s employers all along and when John Doe retires they will pay him only on his pay and his retirement planning numbers go out the window.

Oh an social security was sending all those “no match” notices to the employers of Jose, but they never ever sent a letter to John Doe saying something like guess what someone is no matching your number and we think you should know that.

I have been raised for most of my life in Florida where for many years there was the saying that will the last citizen leaving Miami please bring the flag with them.

Check the demographics there.

We have gone from Jeb Bush to “Sorry Charlie”. The best we can hope for is that he doesn’t break anything really important in the china shop.

Last weekend we had 3 MS13 related gang murders here and they are not the first.

Nazi style cattle cars? Oh come on. Time and again I hear people say load em up and ship em out. I am just saying that if we did that it would like the Nazis in those old film clips, imagine how people would react. I never said that you personally want to do that.

Lady please find me one here who has suggested that at all.

Now that we have got beyond that please answer the specific points of the bill that have been addressed by many here in these threads.

Please pick and answer at least one specific question, your choice.

Simple direct question.

Have you read the draft bill?

They crossed the border or overstayed their visa, thats ILLEGAL

They worked here and didn’t pay taxes, thats ILLEGAL

They got false documents to do the above, thats ILLEGAL

So the bill as formed wipes out MULTIPLE ILLEGALITIES.

And don’t forget this is technically a Senate bill which can’t initiate funding related bills and was partly why GWB did not support the back tax portion that McCaine amendmended back in.

Now opponents of the bill on the house side can “blue slip” the Senate version. Read Captains Quarters on this issue.

* First, the United States must secure its borders.

* Second, to secure our border, we must create a temporary worker program.

Sorry, that is not how borders are secured. They are secured by building an impassable barrier (the equivalent of building another 1500 miles of interstate) across the entire southern border (where almost all the illegal crossings occur), and then being equally thorough in blocking illegal entry by plane and boat.

For a country that built the interstate highway system fifty years ago, this is easily doable.

Like an old wise Chief told me years ago in the Navy, there was no family and bunch of rug rats issued to me in my seabag at boot camp. If someone made the choice to try to raise a family on what the services paid then , quite frankly it was a poor decision from a financial standpoint on their part, no matter how noble their other aims were.

Instead I was stationed for years in Hawaii and invested most of my money and bonuses in condos with some money spent partying with all the tourist ladies for other needs and never left a family behind wondering if the stove went out would we have enough money to fix or replace the stove so my brood could have a hot meal each day.

On the other extreme I have seen sailors spend 100% of their paychecks partying through and entire west pacific deployment and at the end the only thing they had to show for it was a custom cigarette lighter and a tattoo.