Jun 01 2007
The New Litmus Test: Immigration
We all have a new litmus test on the right, amongst conservatives. It is what side you chose on immigration – and it will define who is in and who is out in the GOP. And by defining who is in, it will define whether the GOP can create a governing coalition or become a minority party again for decades to come. The immigration issue has created a fissure because the far right, who have a lot of what they want in the Bush bill, will not allow anything other conservatives believe are valid and valuable elements in the bill. They have nothing but hysterical ‘what if’ scenarios which refuse to address what if things do work to some degree as advertised. But they have made it clear only their wishes can be passed – no one elses.
The hypocrisy is ripe with the immigration hypochondriacs. For years they have touted one story after another about crimes committed by immigrants (legal and illegal). This bill finally makes deportation a punishment for committing violent crimes, including DUI’s. Right now you cannot deport someone for the commission of a violent crime. You can only deport them for being here illegally. But that process is slow, rife with holes and clearly doesn’t work. The Bill fixes that – but the hypochondriacs resist the fixes. In fact, the hypochondriacs would let the status quo remain, with criminal immigrants staying in country, because they want more punishment on those workers who do not have a criminal background. They are willing to live with the violent criminals so they can get more flesh out of the non criminals. That is so screwed up it is scary.
Right now we cannot hold employers accountable to any real level because there is no repository to check if a worker is a valid immigrant worker. People who over stay are impossible to identify since they have some of the paperwork (like SS cards, etc) they had when they were legal. There is no tamper proof ID with a expiration date. The bill would fix that. The hypochondriacs oppose it. Therefore the immigrants will keep working here and therefore staying here.
And the best aspect of all is the guest worker program – where not a soul is elligible to become a US citizen. Not one. That is much better than the current practice. Come, work, stay a while. You will never vote. What is the response of the immigration hypochondriacs? No way – we would rather do nothing at all.
One of my readers who has commented many times he would rather leave things as they are than pass all these great ideas add the gall to claim he was putting security of this nation first. It was such a hypocritical statement I had to post one more item on this matter. Those of us who, like Bush, support the guest worker program and Z-visas do so because it expidites sifting the hard working, good immigrants from the criminal element – and all of them from the terrorist that may be hiding amongst them. It is not a perfect bill – but it does (a) document all the workers, (b) entices them to come forward instead of using law enforcement resources to go after them (all 12-20 million), and (c) allows us to focus our limited law enforcement forces on terrorism – not nannies, landscapers, painters, mechanics, cooks, maids, etc. The idea that we should divert more resources than we have in place today to deal with a population that is primarily made up of hard working people is insanity itself.
This reader was saying securing the border was better than patting down people in airports. He was wrong of course (civilian airliners make massive weapons well beyond anything that can be hauled across the border). I guess for the umpteenth time we have to remind the immigration hypochondriacs that the 9-11 attackers WERE HERE LEGALLY!!! All the border security in the world would have done NOTHING to stop 9-11. The NSA Surveillance program would have stopped it, but not a bigger fence. But the dems these far right allowed into power want to dismantle that. The hypochondriacs don’t care. They would sacrifice our security in a heart beat if it meant one undocumented worker could become documented after paying a fine and back taxes. They don’t think that is enough punishment. So they would rather let things remain as they are than let THAT happen.
The hypochondriacs can pretend to claim they are for security – clearly they are not. They resist all the new security in the bill. It scares them because more people will want to come to our shores. Get a clue, people will always want to come to our shores. Always. The hypochondriacs lamely claim ‘enforce the laws’ – like that has worked for the last 20 years. That is the same as saying ‘more of the same’ or ‘my way or nothing – nobody else gets anything’. Clearly democratic governance in their mind is dictating their views over all others.
I dare Scott Rasmussen to start tracking one questions. (1) If the choice on immigration was the current Bill in the Senate or the status quo, which would you support? I strongly suggest he then ask again what the support levels are for the Bill – because they will go up. Just like the liberals avoided the hard question on Iraq (“do you support surrendering Iraq to al Qaeda”) the far right is missing the point. It is not this Bill or their fantasies. It is this bill or nothing. America will not accept nothing again. Go ahead Scott – prove me wrong. Ask the question. I dare you.
Addendum: As to who will be in or out of the GOP I do not know. I do know this. Any group that is inflexible to compromise our allowing additional features beyond what they support is doomed to minority status. Coalitions are not dictatorships full of ugly sniping when one does not get their way. Coalitions are places were people respect each other, win respectfully and lose respectfully. And when they lose they do not pull their support from the coaition. If everytime a group lost a vote in Congress they seceded from the country we would have no country. Coalitions do not divert debate from the matters being addressed to feign their feelings were hurt when someone said ‘you are wrong’ in too tough of terms. Laura, stop with the feinting spells. Your ideas are not good for America. Even patriots make mistakes (ask Churchill and Roosevelt). I get flak for calling the far right the far right. Well since a compromise with Ted Kennedy is in and by itself not enough to wig me out (I prefer to know what the compromise is) then I am clearly left of the immigration hypochondriacs. Naturally I am, I am an Independent conservative. A Reagan-Bush conservative. I do not bow to the alter of LauRusHannitLevin or the GOP. If the Bush backers win there is a very good chance conservatism will once again overtake liberalism as we head towards a future of new, positive ideas. If the LauRusHannitLevin wing wins then the country will be seeing who races to the bottom quicker – the left or the right – on an endless zero sum game. Can we end the partisanship and get on with America now? That is the big question.
If your attitude becomes universal, the Republicans will absolutely go the way of the Whigs and disappear within 5-10 years.
“Consensus is a lack of leadership” – Margaret Thatcher
AJ, you are hot on it!
And I want to add that if Pat Buchanan is against this bill, then I am DEFINITIELY for it!
And, btw, the Thatcher quote does not apply to a “coalition”! 🙂
And I want to add that if Pat Buchanan is against this bill, then I am DEFINITIELY for it!
I’ve no love for Buchanan, but supporting the bill because he’s against it would be like supporting Hitler because Stalin was against him….
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, much beloved by small statesment, philosophers and divines. Emerson, Self-Reliance
Cato, it’s just a minor comment in reference to one who posted that if Ted Kennedy was for it, he was against it. 🙂
http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals
Well, the RNC is in a real pickle now. Word is they fired their phone staff because the donations are off so much, they can only afford to pay illegals under the table to stay competitive.
AJ, when all of the republicans leave the republican party and you independents move in, are you sure you’re going to want it?
AJ, try to spin correctly. Three of the 19 hijackers were illegally here by overstaying their visas. In other words, they should have been located and deported.
IVEHADIT: don’t needle me, and don’t irritate me, I’m pissed of enough as it is! I saw your little comment on the other thread, and now this one, don’t rile me up, I’m staying out of this.
The personal attacks that you, and AJ, and the others are using against me, and Retired, and Bikerken, who are asking legitimate questions, and asking you to produce your FACTS, are reminiscent of what the Leftists and the Clintonites do, when they want to shut down rational debate on an issue they want to ram down the throats of people!
NO ONE here on this board (except for Soothsayer, and I haven’t seen that bozo in a couple of days); is your “enemy”, neither yours, neither AJ’s, neither anyone’s!
We have LEGITIMATE concerns this bill as it CURRENT IS, and for GOOD reasons, which we’ve all taken extraordinary pains to explain, time after time after time; and instead of telling us if you’ve read the damn bill, if you understand it, showing us something concrete, to address our LEGITIMATE concerns, and to ask if you see that all it does is NOTHING but repeat the mistakes of the past; instead of Facts, you call us “nazis” “racists” “right wing” “hypocondriacs” “nutroots” and everything else you can think of, to shut off the questions, and the debate, WITHOUT answering!
That right there shows, you have NO answers!
So don’t start with me!
Aj, I agree with a lot of what you say, but you might as well go tell it to a brick wall as waste your time talking to these people.
After all, in spite of the time and energy they put into eviscerating this bill they have not as of yet come up with one that has a chance of making it. They just demagogue the issue.
And retire, he said they entered the country legally, they did not cross the border and if you have your way they could do the same thing again because you would support the status quo. Right now there are so many people in line to be deported that there is no reason to believe the same scenario would not happen again if the hardliners get their way.
This bill does set up more courts and detention centers and streamlines the process for faster deportation. Just saying these people should have been deported does nothing toward making it happen. You need to make changes.
Dale:
Ease up. That was not exactly an attack.
Bikerken:
Kyl and Bush are Republicans, so is McCain and right now the Republicans are saying that their own leadership is part of a conspiracy to destroy the country by ramming through a bill they will never enforce just so they can get some illegals to vote for them. That is not exactly a vote of confidence for your own party.
I know a lot of Republicans who say they think that the biggest problem we face via illegal immigration is that Americans would rather live on welfare than work.
Ivehardt:
Yes, but the fact that Thompson wrote an amendment to McCainFeingold with Diane Feinstein does not bother them just so long as he says the right things about immigration.
What happened to all thos concentration camps that were supposed to have been built during the 1990’s? Pilots were calling in to talk radio shows and saying they were seeing these things being constructed. One radio host claimed he finally got a rise out of one federal agency which told him that they were building facilities to hold 3 million illegal immigrants.
Regardless of whether we have facilities to hold all of them until the ACLU finishes fighting each individual case all the way thru the Supreme Court, we need to find a way to encourage them to go home and come back the legal way. Giving them amnesty and allowing them to stay and qualify for more government handouts should not even be considered.
As for me, you can count me as one of those right wing malcontents who is mad as hell and isn’t going to take it any more. I am a US taxpayer who’s 51 year old son died of a heart disease because he was between jobs and could not afford health care or health insurance, while our government provides free health care of illegals and actual Mexican citizens who have learned to come across the border and go to our emergency rooms. I cannot support any political party that cares more for non citizens and foreigners than it does for it’s own people. And both political parties now appear to be more concerned with taking care of the world while milking US taxpayers to pay for their generosity. A pox on the lot of them.
I agree with you about the vote of confidence Terrye, It’s an ugly situation. MY personal opinion is that we are being sold out by a bunch of people who have so short a life expectency, they don’t by green bananas anymore. I don’t know about how many Americans would rather live on welfare than work, but I can tell you what I have seen out here. Almost every single non hispanic person I know who works in construction or related industries is either moved out moving out soon. I have stood outside and talked to them while they were loading up there moving vans. They are too proud to live on welfare. I’m sure there are a lot of Americans who do but down here, there just aren’t that many lower income American citizens who are left. If you don’t make enough money in this area of the country, and you have no choice but to live in a barrio, you will be turned out of there real quick. Most of our citizen roofers and construction workers are all gone or they started their own business using illegals.
Terrye, here is the main point with this bill, if it passes, there will be 12-20 new democrat voters almost overnight. They will vote heavily for democrats and the GOP is a dead duck. Why would anyone who wants the GOP to win ever support this bill? All of this compromise you’re talkin about will never happen because compromising with a strong democrat party is like trying to negotiate with Yasser Arafat, you can give him 99 percent of what he wants and he still screws you. That is exactly what this bill is, It is 99 of what they want, they are not stupid, and you expect that the right should go along with it? To their own demise? Contrary to the apparent belief on this site, all republicans are not that stupid.
Bikerken:
So, are you against the bill because you think it is wrong, or are you against it because the group might vote Democrat someday?
I know some hispanics {Americans} and most of them are conservative and Catholic and right now they are feeling pretty damn insulted by people who openly say they don’t want their kind here because they can be sure they will vote for the right party. I think that what some Republicans are doing and saying right now is going to cost them votes and do them more damage than this bill ever could, you are doing the same thing Republicans did with European Jews and Catholics back in the 20’s. It was not just the Great Depression that made Republicans a minority party for a generation, it was the deliberate attempt to keep people out. And they stayed out alright, out of the Republican Party.
And I think you are missing my point, you are giving no one any reason to vote Republican by assigning these kinds of motives to your own leadership. If Nancy Pelosi did something like this, Republicans would scream fowl, but they have no problem breaking Reagan’s amendment and doing it themselves. And why? Because they can not be sure the enforcement will stand…well you know what? I don’t think there is any way to make people change their minds about that. They have decided that their government is their enemy. Why would anyone want to vote into power a party who does not believe in itself? Or its role to govern? It is one thing to think there is a better way, it is another thing entirely to accuse people of something very much like treason.
Dale, I was not needling you. I am sick of this topic and think we all need to take a break. Imho, there is very little fact being tossed around and lots of over-reaction. I am awaiting the debate between NR and WSJ. It should be informative.
The sad thing about all this is that we all have so much in common but are lashing out over this issue and attacking the president…who is just trying to get this quagmire under control…no amnesty and no animosity…thredding a very fine needle and I applaud him for that.
I had the impression that this bill was an open invitation to criminals around the world to come to America and kill people. But then I saw this:
Aggravated Felony. The term “aggravated felony” under the INA is modified to include
(a) convictions even if the length of the sentence was based on recidivist or other enhancements,
(b) all human smuggling crimes, (c) any felony conviction under INA section 275 (Improper Entry
by an Alien) and section 276 (“Reentry of Removed Alien”), and (d) soliciting, aiding, abetting,
counseling, commanding, inducing, or procuring another to commit one of the crimes listed
already in the definition. (Note: the current definition covers only crimes under Sections 275(a)
and 276 that were committed by an alien previously deported for another aggravated felony; by
capturing the rest of Section 275, the definition now includes felony convictions for marriage
fraud and immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud.) The bill also bars a refugee convicted of
an aggravated felony from eligibility for adjustment of status (i.e., the refugee would not be
allowed to get a green card). (Section 203). It would be a crime to carry a firearm when
smuggling aliens (Section 205(f)). The bill also makes it a crime for an alien who is not a
permanent resident (green card holder) to purchase a firearm (by amending 18 U.S.C. §922)
(Section 213).
Gang Violence. The bill renders inadmissible any alien who is known to be or believed to
be (by a consular officer, or DOJ, or DHS employee) a member of a gang, or who has participated
in such a gang’s activities if the alien knows or has reason to know that such activities supported
the gang’s illegal conduct. Temporary Protected Status (TPS) is denied to any alien who is a
member of a gang, or who has been at any time after admission. (Section 205). Temporary
Protected Status (TPS)
5
is a “quasi-refugee-like” status given to nationals of countries that have
recently undergone trauma (e.g., hurricane, civil war); some of those granted TPS have become
criminal gang members, and the bill would allow DHS to revoke TPS status if the alien is part of
such a criminal gang (Section 205(d)).
Institutional Removal Program. The bill authorizes DHS to extend the Institutional
Removal Program (IRP), which identifies removable aliens in Federal and State prisons and
removes such aliens after completion of their sentences, to all states. It also directs the Secretary
of DHS to study the effectiveness of alternatives to detention, including electronic monitoring and
the Intensive Supervision Appearance Program (ISAP). It also provides for incentives to
unauthorized aliens to accept voluntary departure. (Section 210-212)
Diplomatic Security Services & Visas. The bill authorizes Special Agents of the State
Department and the Foreign Service to investigate illegal passport or visa issuance, identity theft,
document fraud, and Federal offenses committed within the special maritime and territorial
jurisdiction of the United States.
6
(Section 215). The bill provides for a technical change
describing when a visa can be cancelled (Section 22
************
Ah well, this does not mean anything anyway does it?
I would like to thank AJ for providing another viewpoint regarding the immigration bill. I am so sick and tired of the radical cons screaming that people are calling them names (WAH WAH WAH). They spend more time acting indignant and offended than they do trying to provide constructive suggestions to help facilitate the passage of a workable bill. National Review plays stupid games challenging the Wall Street Journal to a debate (WHAT A FARCE!!!). Just another publicity stunt and reminiscent of Cindy Sheehan demanding a meeting with the president in public or Michael Moore challenging Fred Thompson to a debate. The radical conservatives are just like the libs screaming and crying about how everyone is questioning their patriotism when confronted about their views on the war.
I, for one, side with the bill as workable step in the right direction. Lets get an immigration bill done!!!!
I am against this bill for a number of reasons Terrye, not just voting. Here are a few:
The CIS who processes people into this country cant ever possibly do what this bill asks of them, because background checks could not be completed in 24 hours, you would essentially be rubberstamping all approved without being able to check anybody.
Very few Mexicans will ever go to get a permanent ID card, they will just keep working under the table, so if they are caught you say you will deport them, no you wont, and even if you do, they come back next week with a new name and a piece of paper that says they are someone else who has been here for ten years. Prove otherwise.
I am vehemently opposed to the riduculous exceptions it gives to gang members.
What about all of the people in line to come here right now, law abiding people with educations who do the right thing? Are you going to just wave them all in? Or what?
I don’t believe ANY of the security measures or fines will ever happen. Why, they never have in the past. After watching how fast that fence evaporated into thin air, only a fool would believe any future promises like that.
If this bill passes, our population will increase by about ten percent in the next few years, a lot of our major cities are bursting from the strain now and most of the new people will go to the same places because they don’t mind living 20 to a house. Is that what you want?
You cite immigration figures from the twenty’s, my god, what decade are you living in? This situation is drastically different now that it was ten years ago? In the early part of the twentieth century, we ran an average of seventeen percent foreign born people residing in the U.S. When that number started to get high and people were not assimilating, they closed the gates for a while. They slowed immigration to a snails pace until people settled, assimilated and then they decided there was a reason to put limits on the numbers that came here. If this bill passes, approximately HALF of the people living in the U.S. will be foreign born. People don’t assimilate that fast. We will have entire areas of the country that are like LA, which really isn’t America anymore, it is a Mexican colony.
Terrye, I don’t need to give you a reason to vote republican. Our politicians do. And I can see not intelligent republican who would be for this bill. Haven’t you noticed that the republican party is almost completely up in arms about this bill and the dems are staying pretty much quiet? Why do you think that is? Even though democratic voters are more against the bill than republicans, everybody who is honest with themselves knows that this is politically suicide for the right and the left would rather just sit and watch. If you’re opponent likes what you’re doing, that should give you reason to pause. Most of the punditry that if for this bill is pretty much socially liberal left wingers. You see it everywhere, tv, newspapers, radio, etc. Doesn’t that give you a clue?
This bill would have a more drastic effect on this country than any legislation in the last century and our politicians don’t even want to talk about it. They are telling us to just shut up and take it. Well I’m not shutting up, and I’m not taking it.