Jun 03 2007
More Immigration Hypochondriac Foolishness
As I have said many times, sometimes to win a debate you just have to let the other side demonstrate how wrong they are. Much of my current material comes from the hypochondriac postings on my site. They demonstrate over and over how out of control the Bush opponents are. Now they are buying into what are clearly planted propaganda stories. This was the basis of one comment which just has to be the craziest, most paranoid rant I have seen in a long time:
Debbie [Schlussel],
USCIS will not conduct an INTERAGENCY BORDER INSPECTION SYSTEM (IBIS) CHECKS on applicants as part of the TWP. This will increase the number of applicants processed each day (and decrease our safety).
***
CIS will NOT use IBIS/TECS Background Checks during the process of applicants at the Temporary ASC locations [DS: ASCs are Application Support Centers, where they will process Temporary Worker applicants]. CIS plans to open 100 Temporary ASC locations WITHOUT connectivity to IBIS/TECS. Will Congress be interested to hear the news that they are funding a part of the Guest Worker Program that DOES NOT CHECK BACKGROUNDS OF ALIENS????!!!!
Another Chicken Little squawks. First off, no legislation discusses connectivity of systems like this. We do not write laws that are computer system designs and requirements. Second, anyone wonder why this would work? It is not the computer background check that takes any time! It is entering the data of the applicant. Once that is done the computers take over and it is a matter of seconds. Third, background checks are held in the computer records, so there is now way to pretend to have checked the DB, the DB would not have the record of the check. I could list 100 reasons why this is pure myth. But no one in the hypochondriac camp will listen because this news is too good to be true! The Bushies are lying to us!
Oh, please. What a silly crock. This is classic DC propaganda and Schlussel and others fell for it because they have stopped thinking and are running on emotion: the one called panic. Someone is feeding the rabid masses more rabies. This is as ridiculous as the claims by the far left that Bush was behind 9-11 and exploded the twin towers using pre-staged charges. Why would anyone pretend to do background checks? The far right has gone over the edge of paranoid delusions. Now people understand why I coined the term immigration hypochondriacs. God save us from this mess.
Update: Ms Schlussel has commented below on how I “stole” her comments without siting her blog. As I wrote above, I was responding to a reader’s comment here, who by the way did not leave a link. I did note it was from Schlussel by adding in her name in the ‘to’ field of the email (making it pretty darn clear this was an email to her and not something she wrote). Ms. Schlussel has engaged in the same exaggeration and personal attacks which is now the staple of the Immigration Hypochondriacs. She called me a thief for responding to a reader of my blog who brought up her posting. I am awaiting her apology. And I have her on not-so-double-secret-probation for violoating the rules of my site (no wild insults against your host). I am not, however, holding my breath.
Clearly Ms Schlussel put as much thought into callng me a thief (as if I wanted her ideas to be mine???) as she did into the wild claims of some DHS official with an ax to grind or plans for personal power.
I grew up in DC and stuff like this comes out all the time. Just some of us our a lot more cautious about giving these thing credence at face value. The idea we would call for faux background checks is pure silliness. As I said their are 100 of obvious reasons why this is just silly. One more is the agency doing the checks will make sure it gets money to institute a really nice, expensive process and systems with access to other systems to do the job. The government is not known for under engineering its systems. It would be much more realistic to find more money than needed to hook up to DB’s than none at all in an attempt to fake the checks. It is this unrealistic thinking that makes the bill’s opponents lack credibility. And it is their personal attacks on us who find their arguments lacking that further erodes their arguments. The conservative movement is broken because the Immigration Hypochondriacs called for this civil war. They should stop complaining about the battle they wanted to have. They thought they had the cons all with them – and now they are learning a hard lesson. They wanted to teach a lesson to Bush, but the big question is are they capable of learning a lesson themselves? So far not so good.
Update: Reader Sue asked on one of these threads who I define “immigration hypochondriac” and I wrote back anyone who is against a guest worker program that encompasses the general parameters of the one in the bill. That includes punishments of a fine and paying back taxes, background checks, tamper-proof IDs, etc. I lile the provision for those with criminal pasts to get the boot. I like the new program where citizenship is not an option – including any children born here during their work time. So anyone who opposes this in any immigration bill, and is willing to leave us with the status quo to make sure a guest worker program is never enacted, as the Immigration Hypoccrite.
With that said, no bill is perfect and can use corrections. Those willing to support a program with some minor fixes (i.e., forget the poison pill game) then I would not include them in the definition of hypochondriac. No bill is perfect. Government doesn’t produce perfection – it produces consensus. Too many people forget this. Especially on the Conservative side when they get their back up. You would think they would remember government being a mixed bag since it is the essence of their policy positions. So it is hypocrtiical to demand perfection from that we all know cannot produce perfection.
The excuses not to act are endless, and the last refuge of those losing the debate. Acting, even imperfectly, is the true sign of leadership. We all know how is demonstrating leadership and doing what he can to make things better (not perfect), and we all know who have lost so much ground they are now proposing more of the very same they thing they used to say had to be addrressed.
don’t worry AJ, the majority of the american people and the bulk of the posters here, know who the hypochondriacs are. you know them well yourself–you know, the folks who think it’s this bill or nothing otherwise the sky will come crashing down caused by the status quo.
If I interpret this post correctly, you are saying that “if it comes from Washington, it is a crock” Let’s see: how was that?
What a silly crock. This is classic DC propaganda
Completely unlike the new illegal alien bill, which is all truth and light and goodness? Must not be from Washington: hmmm perhaps Massachusetts?
Wow, AJ. If you’re going to engage in complete delusions using portions of my work, you could at least have the basic blog decency to link to my site from which you stole it, so that people could read the entire post and note that what you posted from my site, above, is NOT a rant from me (boy, you’re a liar,too), but comes from officials high atop DHS who are involved in processing illegal aliens and will be involved in doing so for this bill:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/05/exclusive_dhs_o.html
It’s complete idiocy–that means you–to claim that since a bill doesn’t address or mention computer systems to detect the identity of aliens who are terrorists and other criminals, that I am a “hypochondriac” for re-posting what DHS officials have confirmed in public documents and article: that they will NOT be using any terrorism databases of any sort to check the illegal aliens asking for Z Visa and the Temporary Workers. That’s the way this bill will be in practice. Only a true hypochondriac–again, that’ s you; no, an insane person: you, again–would make a dumb comment claiming that since a bill doesn’t address that no background checks will be done against terrorism databases, that it’s not a legitimate concern. It’s, in fact, exactly the point of what’s wrong here: They will be letting anyone in, regardless of background, b/c they won’t be adequately checking the background.
Hmmm . . . I and DHS officials raise important, legitimate, documented concerns that the immigration amnesty bill will allow various terrorists into our country and give them citizenship. And you compare that to insane 9/11 truthers bizarre theories?!
You aren’t just a hypochodriac. You’re clearly, incurably insane.
Did Rush really say he reads your site (along with mine)? I’m going to have to talk to him about this and let him know you called him a hypochondriac and compared him to a 9/11 truther. I’m sure he’ll find that of extreme interest.
FE,
Are you being deliberately dense or is this for real? No, I did not say if it comes from DC it is propaganda. I said in DC people who want to impugn opponents many times put out baseless propaganda which is picked up by people who do not question it. I never said everything is propaganda.
You are definitely losing this discusssion now that you cannot even parse a simple sentence without spinning it into mindless fantasy. Notice how I have posted time and time again the bill is not perfect? Why do you lie about what I post? Is that your normal way of showing respect of others – you lie about them?
And this is how you garner respect? Trust me, it won’t work. And you are not gaining credibility in anyone’s eyes by lying about what I post. Maybe you should take some time to calm down and think about what you have sacrificed of yourself in this debate. And yes, this is the sign you have lost the debate. You are now simply making things up about people you disagree with.
Ms Schlussel,
If you had taken the time to read my post I did not steal anything. I was responding to one of my readers who posted your comments. You will be banned from here for calling me a thief because someone bought into what you posted and posted it here. I offer up comments to people I completely disagree with because I think it is the proper thing to do in an open society such as ours.
But I ‘stole’ nothing. Awaiting your apology.
AJ this was not made up, if you missed it, it is a direct cut and paste of what you said… I don’t have to make it up or lie about it, I just cut and paste your words.
What a silly crock. This is classic DC propaganda
Your words.
I notice you don’t say what I lied about. just that i lied, lied, lied. Well that’s like the people that call Pres Bush a liar. He didn’t lie and I didn’t lie. I may have misunderstood something you said, but I didn’t lie, and i absolutely defy you to quote a lie that I said.
I grew up in DC and stuff like this comes out all the time. Just some of us our a lot more cautious about giving these thing credence at face value.
Too funny, I notice you didn’t have a problem swallowing the illegal alien bill whole hog. Unread, I might add.
You are definitely losing this discusssion now that you cannot even parse a simple sentence without spinning it into mindless fantasy.
At least I haven’t gotten to the name calling position yet.
signed: Hardliner (another name for those that want laws enforced)
Anyone who objectively looks at this “issue”, recognizes that it would be entirely impossible for us to stop people from crossing our borders illegally. That the problem will mostly be addressed through reform of our laws AND enforcement in such a way that it discourages people from living and working here illegally is a given.
The problem here with this bill is with enforcement and/or logistics of carrying out the provisions of such a bill. The current bill has some areas that is makes recommendations for actually providing the space and or manpower ..18k new border patrol, and space for holding up to 24k people on a daily basis for processing.
(if that gives you any idea of just how big the problem is on the southern border).
The problem is, the bill needs more fleshing out in regards to specifc laws that will actually work as a deterrent factor along side the “carrot” and the enforcement and logistics to carry it out. I dare say…such clarification in the current bill would bring MORE support …not less. And I have NO idea why some people seemingly argue against such changes as being an attempt to just deport everybody. That’s most certainly hypocondriac response as well.
The “deterrent” factor, or what will bring illegal immigration under control, is when people from other countries understand that just getting here past the border doesn’t make things home free for them. And by that, I mean…currently..the things they have to put up with living and working illegally here are minor compared to a life and future where they come from (and one cannot exclude the culpability of their respective govs and their policies in this)
Currently…it’s all milk and honey if you can just get through the border.
What will change that is when getting across the border is only the first step…and living here illegally is very diffuclt and has risks associated with it compared to coming in another way (ie..a legal way). The first step in that is recognize that this is the area where the patient is spurting blood (ie..what to fix). And the 2nd area of that is how to make it all work as a policy (ie..enforcment, and logistics) or putting the pressure in the right place.
I’m not so sure this first attempt at the bill really moves to address the problem at this fundemantal level and I think it needs more fleshing out or it stands to create an even bigger mess out of an already messy situation.
Case in point: in NYC, the local rags interviered and polled illegal immigrant families living here. They were so “unafraid” of anything happening to them under current laws..they were glad to have their picture in the paper ..ie..the Garcia family from Queens…and discuss the bill openly as illegals living here. They were asked about the current proposals in this bill and most of them (about 75%) said they would ignore whatever it was..and simply continue living on as they have…which is fine for them and their family. Even higher percentage said..they would abslutely NOT return to their native countries for any reason..even if it meant citizenship at the end coming back in.
Asked if they feared any retruibution for staying illegal given the new laws that would be passed….they simply laughed. They don’t believe the US can enforce such a law…and even if they could they don’t believe they will. Mostly..they’ll just change their name and move.
Ok I am back on this thread since the other one has so many comments I am getting lost in the weeds over there.
For those that want me to confront various part of the bill I still cannot download the PDF file. However even the other internet version of this
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1348:
It not allowing me to access it. I just getting a message that says
“Please resubmit your search” when I click on the various sections.
However if some one knows where there is a another site that has the bill with the current amendments I shall be happy to access that. I have a hard copy of this bill at Chruch but I don’t feel like driving40 miles roundtrip to get it lol.
enforcement:
I do not know if you saw this on the other thread, but you asked me what I read. I found sites like truth laid bare and several others to read when the bill came out. I have no idea if this is still up to date, but there were several sites like this as well as some government sites posting the bill.
I messed that up. link
AJ, I know you don’t care one way or the other, but this is my LAST comment on the illegal alien issue.
you aren’t interested in any reasonable discussion on the subject
you are only interested in your way or the highway
You haven’t read the bill so can’t possibly discuss it rationally or with knowledge.
You will not engage in any discussion with any of the commenters on the blog except the ones that buy your version, whole song same verse.
You don’t even understand the issue and don’t want to learn about it.
You are only interested in name calling of those that have a different opinion.
I have not called you any name.
I have not insulted your intelligence.
I notice you have not changed one single opinion on the subject. Those that bought your version, sight unseen, still buy. Those that didn’t, still don’t.
What you think about the bill and what I think about the bill doesn’t matter anyhow, none of the politicians are gonna listen to either you or me. They’re gonna do what is in their interest. Not the country’s.
I only hope that you will at least make an attempt to find out what the bill is all about.
I repeat, this is my final comment on Illegal aliens.
signed: Hardliner (another name for those that want laws enforced).
.
MS Strussel
Your hysteria comprises a technical matter that can be corrected. If you are reduced to matters like this to create mass panic, you are sorely lacking.
Are you a joke?
Does anyone really take her seriously?
I also read this, it is an Administration substitute. It is amazing how many amendments there are out there.
BY the way another article that people should check out on the fence. Again showing this is a more complicated issue than people would like to think.
Note the Administration gets criticized by one side for supposely doing nothing. THese folks are mad as heck that the Bush and the admninstration are steamrolling the plans of the fence without their input or concerns. Poor Bush and the administration is caught in the middle again
http://www.theeagle.com/stories/060207/texas_20070602048.php
Why would anyone pretend to do a background check? If one of these people gets busted for something and goes to court the court would find out about his background when they prosecute. Even if they just deport, they will still have to do some kind of hearing. The only way to get away with it is you could be sure that no one would go the press with the truth {yeah right} and that no criminal who came in would act like a criminal {yeah right again}.
lsu:
Can’t win for losing. I have mentioned before that if a lot of these states really wanted to make a change it would have happened by now. This is what you always run into.
Apache: I went to bed early last night, and just took an hour to wade thru all the comments from last night.
Sadly, nothing resolved; AJ’s still calling everyone who has the temerity to even disagree with him, all manner of names.
Ah well, if you read this, post below, and I’ll come back; have some work to do, and I’ll check in occasionally.
Terrye
I ran into this fence issue when I was investigating the various Minutemen factions. Again the issue is far more complicated than the those that oppose this bill are aware of as to the “Fence” and other issues on the border.
I constantly come across people that think for some reason the United States owns the land on the border for instance.
Conservative and Republicans are usually the ones that make sure local conserns are met. Many of these towns have economic reltaions ship with people across the border. That is rarely considered.
I keep thinkin gth ecase of Rep Flake in Arizona is very Interesting. HEre we have a Republican in a border state and he is very pro immigration refrom. In fact he is the co author of the much more liberal Strive act in the HOuse. One would think that listening to the comments of the segments of the right that he would be hated. YEt last year in Arizona where immigration was a hot button issue
Yet
Flake had no Democratic opposition and easily defeated Libertarian Party candidate Jason Blair with his 74% of the vote over Blair’s 26%.
Flake is one of the most conservtive members of the HOuse and yet he is relelected quite easily in a border State where immigration is a hot button issue. Amazing.
Why don’t we see this guy on TV talking about the Comprehensive plan.
“and I wrote back anyone who is against a guest worker program that encompasses the general parameters of the one in the bill. That includes punishments of a fine and paying back taxes, background checks, tamper-proof IDs, etc. I lile the provision for those with criminal pasts to get the boot. I like the new program where citizenship is not an option – including any children born here during their work time. So anyone who opposes this in any immigration bill, and is willing to leave us with the status quo to make sure a guest worker program is never enacted, as the Immigration Hypoccrite. ”
AJ: if you had actually read what most of have been saying from the beginning, NOT ONE OF US is against a “guest worker” program!
We’ve all said: me, LE, Bikerken, Apache, et.al. that we support that; what we Doubt, that as written now, IF the current “bill in progress” is actually SERIOUS about those things it says, or if it is all a shellgame being played by the Kennedy-types to pull on over on the American people yet again; and, of course, we are all for SERIOUS Border Enforcement, again, and issue that this bill does not appear to be serious about!
That’s it!