Jun 03 2007
More Immigration Hypochondriac Foolishness
As I have said many times, sometimes to win a debate you just have to let the other side demonstrate how wrong they are. Much of my current material comes from the hypochondriac postings on my site. They demonstrate over and over how out of control the Bush opponents are. Now they are buying into what are clearly planted propaganda stories. This was the basis of one comment which just has to be the craziest, most paranoid rant I have seen in a long time:
Debbie [Schlussel],
USCIS will not conduct an INTERAGENCY BORDER INSPECTION SYSTEM (IBIS) CHECKS on applicants as part of the TWP. This will increase the number of applicants processed each day (and decrease our safety).
***
CIS will NOT use IBIS/TECS Background Checks during the process of applicants at the Temporary ASC locations [DS: ASCs are Application Support Centers, where they will process Temporary Worker applicants]. CIS plans to open 100 Temporary ASC locations WITHOUT connectivity to IBIS/TECS. Will Congress be interested to hear the news that they are funding a part of the Guest Worker Program that DOES NOT CHECK BACKGROUNDS OF ALIENS????!!!!
Another Chicken Little squawks. First off, no legislation discusses connectivity of systems like this. We do not write laws that are computer system designs and requirements. Second, anyone wonder why this would work? It is not the computer background check that takes any time! It is entering the data of the applicant. Once that is done the computers take over and it is a matter of seconds. Third, background checks are held in the computer records, so there is now way to pretend to have checked the DB, the DB would not have the record of the check. I could list 100 reasons why this is pure myth. But no one in the hypochondriac camp will listen because this news is too good to be true! The Bushies are lying to us!
Oh, please. What a silly crock. This is classic DC propaganda and Schlussel and others fell for it because they have stopped thinking and are running on emotion: the one called panic. Someone is feeding the rabid masses more rabies. This is as ridiculous as the claims by the far left that Bush was behind 9-11 and exploded the twin towers using pre-staged charges. Why would anyone pretend to do background checks? The far right has gone over the edge of paranoid delusions. Now people understand why I coined the term immigration hypochondriacs. God save us from this mess.
Update: Ms Schlussel has commented below on how I “stole” her comments without siting her blog. As I wrote above, I was responding to a reader’s comment here, who by the way did not leave a link. I did note it was from Schlussel by adding in her name in the ‘to’ field of the email (making it pretty darn clear this was an email to her and not something she wrote). Ms. Schlussel has engaged in the same exaggeration and personal attacks which is now the staple of the Immigration Hypochondriacs. She called me a thief for responding to a reader of my blog who brought up her posting. I am awaiting her apology. And I have her on not-so-double-secret-probation for violoating the rules of my site (no wild insults against your host). I am not, however, holding my breath.
Clearly Ms Schlussel put as much thought into callng me a thief (as if I wanted her ideas to be mine???) as she did into the wild claims of some DHS official with an ax to grind or plans for personal power.
I grew up in DC and stuff like this comes out all the time. Just some of us our a lot more cautious about giving these thing credence at face value. The idea we would call for faux background checks is pure silliness. As I said their are 100 of obvious reasons why this is just silly. One more is the agency doing the checks will make sure it gets money to institute a really nice, expensive process and systems with access to other systems to do the job. The government is not known for under engineering its systems. It would be much more realistic to find more money than needed to hook up to DB’s than none at all in an attempt to fake the checks. It is this unrealistic thinking that makes the bill’s opponents lack credibility. And it is their personal attacks on us who find their arguments lacking that further erodes their arguments. The conservative movement is broken because the Immigration Hypochondriacs called for this civil war. They should stop complaining about the battle they wanted to have. They thought they had the cons all with them – and now they are learning a hard lesson. They wanted to teach a lesson to Bush, but the big question is are they capable of learning a lesson themselves? So far not so good.
Update: Reader Sue asked on one of these threads who I define “immigration hypochondriac” and I wrote back anyone who is against a guest worker program that encompasses the general parameters of the one in the bill. That includes punishments of a fine and paying back taxes, background checks, tamper-proof IDs, etc. I lile the provision for those with criminal pasts to get the boot. I like the new program where citizenship is not an option – including any children born here during their work time. So anyone who opposes this in any immigration bill, and is willing to leave us with the status quo to make sure a guest worker program is never enacted, as the Immigration Hypoccrite.
With that said, no bill is perfect and can use corrections. Those willing to support a program with some minor fixes (i.e., forget the poison pill game) then I would not include them in the definition of hypochondriac. No bill is perfect. Government doesn’t produce perfection – it produces consensus. Too many people forget this. Especially on the Conservative side when they get their back up. You would think they would remember government being a mixed bag since it is the essence of their policy positions. So it is hypocrtiical to demand perfection from that we all know cannot produce perfection.
The excuses not to act are endless, and the last refuge of those losing the debate. Acting, even imperfectly, is the true sign of leadership. We all know how is demonstrating leadership and doing what he can to make things better (not perfect), and we all know who have lost so much ground they are now proposing more of the very same they thing they used to say had to be addrressed.
AJ,
You’ll have to take the term off of O’Reilly then. Or do another post with O’Reilly’s stated positions that take your definition of the term away from him.
update:
Here\’s my bill:
1) Pt US citzens to the front of any line for \”jobs\” that are being farmed out via work permits/visas.
2) Use work visas, green cards, etc..for foreignors who wish to come here to study, work, etc.
3) Deport anybody who is caught and/or found to be living and/or working here illegally back to their country of origin.
Done. I call it the PUD plan.
“on over on the American people yet again; and, of course, we are all for SERIOUS Border Enforcement, again, and issue that this bill does not appear to be serious about!”
DaleinAtlanta
I am not sure where you are getting that. How does a bill and proposals that would add boeder patrol agents to the number of 29,000 not be taking security issue seriously. Is not he expansion of real fencing and virtual fencing in the bill. Isnt all that in the mix in a very real way. Do we not have a real ID work card in the mix and real employment sanctions and a verfication system that actually makes many of these cases more proveble?
The problem is to get all that other groups are demanding X. That is how all these stuff works.
sorry..trying to close the bold.
) Pt US citzens to the front of any line for “jobs†that are being farmed out via work permits/visas.
DC in many ways I agree with this. THe problem becomes though when this becomes counterproductive and not a good thing for the USA
For instance in the mix here is the expansion of High Tech Visas. We want all those smart high skill labor from India because they are on the leading edge.
Now lets say I work at Microsoft. I want to hires some of the leading Indian Computer guys but gosh I got some people from Nicholls State in Louisiana that have the same degree. I really don’t want to hire them because I want these smart Indian guys. I can’t even imagine how the Govt can set up a process to see if their qualifications are similar.
At some point the market and business has to come in and make those choices.
Just saying the issue here is just not low skilled labor but there is is a foreign high skill Labor debate that is a part of this bill that is just as important
People are right now…willing to die to cross our border illegally because of what they stand to gain if they can just get here. They do so everyday. I have no idea what makes people think that building a better fence and more guns is going to stop that. What are you going to do…shoot the families and children as they scurry across seeking a new future and life?
We can be resigned to be E. Germany in reverse and watch the daily images of young people hanging in barbed wire..shot…trying to get “in”. The only way to deal with this is through laws and programs that can deincentivize the illegal trafficking across this border. And that means….we’ve got to make it a LOT more uncomfortable and difficult for people to live and work here daily illegally….and offer some alternative at the “front door” to get what they want.
BIGLSUS…
I think you might be surprised to learn how many of those Indian PHDs.etc…actually are here already with citizenship and or otherwise legally to choose from who get passed over. I think you might also be surprised to learn the negative impact such visa policies have had on young americans persuing any such degree in school BECAUSE all the jobs are being farmed out thorugh work visa programs.
I do recognize we aren’t just talking about strawberry farms. And even there, I’m quite sure there are plenty of US legal resident day laborers from Mexico and elsewhere who need a job.
I know plenty of people here who do heavy and dangerous contruction work and would do it for competitive cost. BUT..the difference is…they have to actually pay for the permits and insurance, etc..to do it correctly. And they actually rent or buy the proper equipment to do it safely. Sure, you can get a handful of mexicans willling to go under unsupported foundations for a handful of cash a day. But, you know what happens when they F’up and somebody gets killed or hurt or something gets damaged?
They split…and change their name. That’s what. And everybody else pays for it. I’m talking about bricks falling off buildings, structures failing…tumbling scaffolding that was unsafe to begin with. It’s all great and cheap till something like that happens.
No..my construction friends cannot compete with them on price becuase it costs them twice as much just in overhead to do the job “legally”, with the proper permits and safety. So, they are all hurting. They have NO problem competing man for man with anybody in the world…but they can’t do it legally.
DC, the point about foreign High skilled labor I know is complex. I shall try to find the link btu I think 25 percent of the patents this year were made by non citizens in the USA. What happens if they leave and start doing their trade.
I am putting this out here to show that AJ is just not going off polls here.
I keep hearing all conservatives are against comprehensive immigration reform if they worth their salt and my golly if they don’t listen we shall vote them out.
Let us look at the Border State of Arizona. As I keep saying the closer we get to the border the more complicated voters views are. At some point us yahoos have to start listenign toi the diverse views on the border. I find that elections where people fight these issues out are a good indication of some signs of what people close the problem think
First Rep Flake to say the least is not RINO. HE is one of the most conservative memebers of the HOuse. Please see this site to confirm that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Flake
Now he has right now the much more less restrictive Strive Act in the House that deals with this issue of immigration.
LEts take a closer look at Rep Flake and the Great and Good and American People he represents
This is examination(With a Map) that shows his district
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona%27s_6th_congressional_district
Please note he is much closer to the border than we are.
The Stats of this District are
Population (2000): 641,329
Male 49.3%, Female 50.7%
Median age: 34.1
Median Household Income: $47,976
Racial Composition: 84.2% White, 2.1% Black, 1.8% Asian, 1.0% Native American, 0.2% Pacific Islander, 8.2% Other, 17.2% Hispanic (of any race)
George W. Bush received 64% of the vote in this district in 2004. The district has a Cook Partisan Voting Index score of R +12.
This sounds awfully conservative. In fact the district seems like a TigerDroppings Conservative faction paradise(Tigerdroppings is home where the best and brightest in the nation discuss LSU football and POliticial matters. THey are my people) ANywho. As you can see it seems the dynamics is not LIberal versus Dem but Republican versus Liberatarian.
Now please agin look at something interesting. It appears to me that before the Census that this district was represented by a Hardliner on the immigration issue. That is Hayworth. Hayworth by the way got defeated this year and now has gone from the height of power in the GOP and now has a gig on Talk radio in the afternoon.
Let us look when he had portions of this district
Party Canadidate Votes %
Republican Party J. D. Hayworth 171,446 61
Democratic Party Lawrence Robert Nelson 101,697 37
[edit] 1998
Main article: U.S. House election, 1998
Party Canadidate Votes %
Republican Party J. D. Hayworth 96,063 53
Democratic Party Steve Owens 81,962 45
Not bad. But lets look at Rep Flake that has a consistent history of supporting PRo immigration Reform and favors a Bush approach
2006
Main article: U.S. House election, 2006
Party Canadidate Votes %
Republican Party Jeff Flake 109,288 74.1
Libertarian Party Jason Blair 38,230 25.9
[edit] 2004
Main article: U.S. House election, 2004
Party Canadidate Votes %
Republican Party Jeff Flake 202,882 79
Libertarian Party Craig Stritar 52,695 21
[edit] 2002
Main article: U.S. House election, 2002
Party Canadidate Votes %
Republican Party Jeff Flake 84,854 65
Democratic Party Deborah Thomas 42,653 32
Libertarian Party Andy Wagner 3,735 3
Goodness the Great and Good American People that live and deal with this situation of immigration not only like Flake but tell Dems don’t even apply.
Please check out the links to the Demographic info of the Countys that FLAKE represents. These are not liberals but Red white and blue Republicans Why are we not listening to these folks? Immigration was red hot last year in Arizona and yet we are not listening to conservatives close to the border when they go to the polls? Why is that?
By the way Flake is not hiding his postion on this.
THe hardline American Patrol had this to say in
quote:
——————————————————————————–
2004 as to Flake
Rep. Jeff Flake (RINO-AZ) — Arizona Republic — Phoenix
Flake mercilessly spins Bush’s absurd amnesty scheme
——————————————————————————–
Yet it appears that these people that declare he is selling out the Country and is a rino cannot convince the Good and Great American people of this district that often seems to vote on who is more conservative of that fact? Why?
DC: I see that here right in Atlanta, alot.
One of my best friends and neighbors here, has run a roofing company for over 20 years.
He started out in NC, and then came down here about 6 years ago.
He tried to do everything “legal”, and between the GA state Govt, the US Govt, Insurance and endless regulations and redtape, they literally made it impossible for him to work, and make money. Liability, insurance, SS, this, that, the other thing, it was insane.
However, living in the same complex, with the ILLEGAL roofers; they have no insurance, no liability coverage, no insurance on any of their vans for work vehicles, etc., etc., etc., they go around and watch my friend make bids on jobs, drive up behind him, offer to do the job for 40%, get the job, bring in their 20 – 30 ILLEGAL “homies”, crank the job out in a week, drive off counting their cash, and laught at the dumb Gringos!
My friend, in order to survive, finally just gave up; laid off all his “legal” workers; hired the “illegals” off the books in cash, just to survive, and gets by that way.
But he’ll never be able to expand, nor grow, because he still has to have all the liability coverage, insurances, vehicle insurance, and all that other stuff for he and his son, that the ILLEGALS get away with NOT having!
Tell me that’s the way for this insane system to work? This story could be told in a million different variants, every single day, all across this country; that’s why people are pissed off, and why at the grassroots level, no one trusts this bill, nor wants it.
AJ, you keep saying, it’s better to do something “bad”, than not do something at all.
That’s not true, this bill is WORSE than the status quo, and again, I say, if Teddy Kennedy and LaRaza are supporting it, that’s all the proof anyone needs, without quoting chapter and verse!
To take the thorougly messed up, screwed up, disaster we actually have now; and replace it with something WORSE, is not a solution!
Dale in Hotlanta said –
Sadly, nothing resolved;
Very true. But I have been trying to resolve this. Days ago I offered to compromise. I keep offering to compromise every day. I attempted to get the ball rolling with a proposed change to the bill.
Nothing from the proponents. Nada. Zip.
They completely ignore ALL of my attempts at compromise. Just like they completely ignore my questions.
If they won’t talk about compromising, then I don’t see how this can be resolved. And that sucks.
AJ’s still calling everyone who has the temerity to even disagree with him, all manner of names.
Yes, he is.
I need to mow my lawn. And it is too depressing trying to engage the proponents in a civil debate or compromise, only to be repeatedly ignored.
I meant what I said about swinging through Hotlanta and buying you a beer or two or three. 🙂
I’ll check back later this evening.
Dale in Hotlanta said –
To take the thorougly messed up, screwed up, disaster we actually have now; and replace it with something WORSE, is not a solution!
I second that!!
OK, so we give 12-20 million Z visas. Now the Democrats are already screaming about their families so we will have the Z-2,3 and 4 visas so that family members can come. Does anyone care about the economic impact this will have on communities?
AJ complained about the violations of housing rules in his city. Let’s take a look at that.
In Texas, illegals are about 8% of the population. So let’s do the numbers for Virginia. Currently Virigina has an illegal population of about 2.7%. And let’s say that an owner of a two bedroom apartment, leased to mother, father and two kids pays $3,000 per apartment in school taxes. If you raise Viriginia’s illegal population to match Texas, you will have an increase of over 353,000 people. Now you have, due to housing shortages, mother, father and five kids in an apartment that still pays the same $3,000 school taxes. But the school has three more kids to educatate with no increase in taxes paid by the apartment owner as taxes are paid on the market value of the apartment, not the occupancy rate. Multiply that number by just 25,000. Who will pay for the extra 75,000 students in the school districts? Answer: home owners and rental landlords in higher school taxes. Also, there will be a need for increased police, fire and city workers to handle the influx of new residents. Water, electricity and gas will all have to be increased as the demand increases. Are the cities going to absorb the increased costs in producing drinkable water or providing more firefighters? Nope. That is going to be offset by higher sales taxes, higher property taxes, higher road usage taxes.
DC is correct. The way to reduce illegal immigration is to make it not worth the illegal immigrants time to come here. Ending social services, enforcing employer laws (and yes, AJ, employers can now join the Pilot Program and verify Social Security numbers but they don’t).
AJ is right about one thing; the status quo has to end. Enforcement must be required and employers must be fined to the full extent of the law for violating federal employment laws. No social services except for valid emergency medical treatment. But I can find those requirements no where in this bill.
If it is in there, please, provide me with section and clause.
I have no fear of free trade nor capitalism. Everybody said India would take over technology and call centers, etc. But, with the forces of free markets..comes the pressures of a free market.
All of these forces will balance themselves naturally so long as their are not unnatural forces holding it.
So, I have no fear in competing, transitioning..and/or otherwise with anybody in the world in “any” area…SO LONG as the markets are free and not manipulated (as in China) and the playing field is open. Everything else..will take care of itself.
We’ve lost most of our manf base…to places like Mexico. The jobs are there…but the people still come here.
if you leave an html tag open, to close it, just go back and add a close. don’t add another open or it will stay open
Apache: no problem you buying me a beer or so if you come thru Atlanta; happy to meet you.
Where do you get this stuff?
” One more is the agency doing the checks will make sure it gets money to institute a really nice, expensive process and systems with access to other systems to do the job. ”
A review of the 1986 Amnesty found that 2/3rd of the agricultural Amnesty applications were fraudulent (and approved anyway).
But this time it is going to be different…
Sure…
I have posted a few notes showing how the Amnesty bill would drastically weaken the ability of the government to remove dangerous extremists from the US. It turns out the DHS actually agrees with me… See the quotes below
“DHS officials say the report’s conclusions are misleading, arguing that many terrorist cases are ultimately prosecuted by bringing immigration-related charges. The goal, said an agency spokesperson, is often to deport individuals that present a threat as quickly as possible.”
and
“In most cases, it’s far easier to establish that someone has overstayed their visa and violated our immigration laws than to prove a terrorism charge,” said Virginia Kice, a western regional communications spokeswoman based in Laguna Niguel with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Known as ICE, the agency falls under DHS.
As an example, Kice pointed to two cases in 2005 where imams in the Lodi area of California were under investigation for terrorist-related activities. Ultimately, both cases were resolved after federal prosecutors filed charges against both men for overstaying their visas. Both ultimately were deported to their native Pakistan.
“Our goal is to remove these individuals and the threat. And we want to do that in the most expedient process possible,” Kice said.
This highly useful power would be lost as soon as these individuals filed for “probationary status”… Actually, it would be lost as soon as they become eligible for probationary status even if they didn’t apply (read the Amnesty bill). The Bush folks claim that “probationary status” can be revoked and Z nonimmigrant visa status denied. True, in theory. However, you are now into the nether world of infinite delays, hearings, appeals, etc. Worse, the government may be forced to either reveal secret evidence or allow bad people to remain in the US. Moreover, with 12-20 million Amnesty applications pending, is this really going to happen? Or are we really talking about a rubber stamp?
“Sadly, nothing resolved;
Very true. But I have been trying to resolve this. Days ago I offered to compromise. I keep offering to compromise every day. I attempted to get the ball rolling with a proposed change to the bill.
Nothing from the proponents. Nada. Zip.
They completely ignore ALL of my attempts at compromise. Just like they completely ignore my questions.”
Apache as someone that is supporting this bill I am not trying to ignore your proposal. It is just with all the comments that are on these post they are blend together and I think I have missed it