Jun 04 2007
58+% Are Not Against Immigration Bill
Well, here is a bizarre poll from USA Today/Gallup:
As the Senate prepares to vote on a landmark immigration bill, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds that Americans who have an opinion about it are overwhelmingly opposed to the deal.
By nearly 3-1, those who have a view say they’re against the compromise supported by Senate Democratic leaders and President Bush. However, 58% of those surveyed say they don’t know enough about the legislation to favor or oppose it.
USA Today tries really hard to spin this as meaning the immigration bill is in trouble, but that is more grasping for hope than reality it seems. Let’s have some fun with basic math. Of the 42% who did not fall into the “who knows any more” 58%, the story says they run 3-1 against the bill. OK, that means roughly 31% are against the Bill (75% of 42). That means 58+10 or 68% are for the bill or not sure. So 31-68 if you are looking for people who clearly oppose the Bill being passed. Now I understand why the bill’s proponents are feeling confident of passage. The opposition has not grown, just the ‘no opinion’. Will they trend into the opposition camp or fall back into the support camp where they existed for the last few years? We shall see.
And who in their right minds writes a bill where they open the flood gates for millions of applications, and THEN thinks about possibly hiring people to handle the applications.
ONLY A POLITICIAN COULD BE THAT STUPID!
Hire and train the staff BEFORE you open the flood gates! Dumba**es!
AJ is all in favor of the guest worker program. As am I.
I don’t think he realizes that the guest worker program hinges upon the triggers being met. Even the GAO says that won’t happen before 2010, and I personally doubt it happens that soon.
I wonder if knowing that would change his opinion of this bill?
And I have a proposed change to the guest worker portion of the bill. In short, my change would prevent the guest worker program from being exploited and creating a huge back door illegal immigrant program.
For example, let’s say that the final guest worker program allows 300,00 guest workers per year. And those guest workers are on a 2 year guest worker visa. That would mean that after the second years worth of guest workers arrive, there would be a total of 600,000 guest workers in the Country every year.
But that is based upon the assumption that after their 2 year work visa expires, they ALL go home to their Country of origin.
Well, what happens if they don’t? What happens if only half of them go home? Should we still keep importing 300,000 per year? I don’t think so. I think that amounts to a back door illegal immigrant system.
I propose that we reduce each years guest worker program by the amount of the number of guest workers who failed to go home.
We keep a running tally of the number of guest workers who don’t leave. Every year we reduce the number of new guest workers by the running tally of those who did not leave.
That would help motivate the Government to keep track of guest workers and make sure they go home when their visa expires. I think if we let our Government off of the hook for enforcing the laws, then they won’t bother.
Pretty simple plan, right? And I think it is both fair and reasonable.
Would anyone be opposed to such a change?
“Hey, what happened to Big LSU????
All I did was ask a simple question. ”
Big Lsu has a life besides montering this forum and talking immigration 24/7. So let me find your question and I will answer it
Apache I think this what is you are talking about
“But they also have to remove the exception clause found in the first sentence. No reward for ANYONE until AFTER all of the triggers have been met.
And they have to add an amendment that says something to the effect, “Whoever is SUSPECTED of using another person’s SSN gets nothing until a full investigation and trial, AND all governmental agencies (to include the IRS) will cooperate on SSN fraud. Mandate that the IRS turn over instances where an SSN is suspected of being fraudulentâ€.
Then, I could probably be persuaded to agree to the bill”
As to the SS stuff words mean something “suspected” is not exactly a legal term. At least you should use the term “probable cause” or some legal standard. Of course to do that and what you envision would require googles of personel to do and manhours to do. This should be done by regualr channels and regular statue of limitations. Also you will drag in tons of business and small business owners and that will kill it right there. So no I do not support such an amendment where to be quite honest we don’t have enough lawyers to prosecute the drug dealers in my town or people to do the real legwork to get convictions.
We are going to have enough work to do deporting and with workplace enforcement. That will be needed right away. As conservatives we should know something about the allocation of scarce resources.
As to the particular exception clause if you could point that out ot me by sec number so I can look at it
“I propose that we reduce each years guest worker program by the amount of the number of guest workers who failed to go home.
We keep a running tally of the number of guest workers who don’t leave. Every year we reduce the number of new guest workers by the running tally of those who did not leave.”
This is the problem with the guest worker program and the way it is established. All it is a number. There is nothing that attrubute it to economic forces in the country or the market. It doesnt fullfill its purpose. Also if I have guestworker and he has acquired skills it seems silly to have this go home requirement.
Guest worker is a biggie to me but I don’t see the wisdom in this arbitrary numbers or these weird go home requirements they have. People go home and I train new workers? The market and the business world needs a little play here to work its magic. This again seems like some weird UNION influence here. I can see numerous problems with the way this is set up
Big LSU said –
As to the SS stuff words mean something “suspected†is not exactly a legal term. At least you should use the term “probable cause†or some legal standard. Of course to do that and what you envision would require googles of personel to do and manhours to do. This should be done by regualr channels and regular statue of limitations. Also you will drag in tons of business and small business owners and that will kill it right there. So no I do not support such an amendment where to be quite honest we don’t have enough lawyers to prosecute the drug dealers in my town or people to do the real legwork to get convictions.
Well, this a deal breaker for me. I find it unconscionable that any illegal immigrant who has used someone else’s SSN would be given a path to citizenship. I just can’t accept that. And quite frankly, I think very little of anyone who would agree to such a thing.
As to the particular exception clause if you could point that out ot me by sec number so I can look at it
I have said repeatedly that it is the VERY FIRST SENTENCE IN THE IMMIGRATION DRAFT PROPOSAL.
I am wasting my time having a debate with a person who has not read the bill.
And I refuse to elevate you to the status of human being by talking with you, when you are in favor of granting a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants that have used someone else’s SSN.
“APPLY THE 14TH AMENDMENT IN THE TRUE SINCE OF THE WORD (no anchor babies)”
People need to get this going in the State legislatures. I hear there is so much support for it so go for it. Get the required number and you got a amendment.
“I know you’re not gonna believe this, but there is no border security guaranteed in the bill, all subject to appropriations.
and they only call for hiring 14000 agents thru the year 2012, so they’re not gonna be setting any records. ”
Yes the money has to be appropriated much like everything else
Also remember we are oline by the end of 2008 to have double the Border Patrol in 8 years. If you want people more people quicker we better build more facilities which might be useful for the passage of bill sice we can put these in some people districts as a incentive to vote for this:)
I have to go and back and look at this. THe Thomas site is giving me a error message but I did see legislation where this 14000 is to be added to the people that we are bring on line over the next few years to get us to the total of 29,000 I think is the number. I will have to go back and check
“Just the fact that you would believe on it’s face everyting that the feg govt says proves how easy it is to fool you! What, it must be true because the gubmint say so? You swallow it up like a largemouth bass on a fat worm. You must admit that your faith in the govt to do exactly what they say even after they have not done that in 40 years is not shared by the majority, not even close”
I have worked in Governemnt and I ahve seein its limitations and where it can excell. I have seen it not meet expectations and in some cases exceed them. No I am not a naive rube to say the least
” I think America has had about enough of being lied to on this subject and watching the govt stand around with their thumbs up their butts like a three year old and complain that it’s just to hard to enforce the law. We are going to drag these bums sorry asses out to the woodshed and stop them from selling out our country. Even if the bill is passed by a bunch of traitorous morons with their fingers in their ears, the fight won’t be over, it will just be beginning.”
Go getem tiger- Go get them traitors- Vote them out- At times I think people enjoy this and want the status quo so they can be dramatic and talk of traitors and all that
I cam tell you the long term success of your project is in doubt. IN fact it weakens by the year. The people that are obesses by the issue to the degree that they use the word “traitor” is quite few. But go on have fun.
“I’m beggining to sense a trend here and I think I’m seeing who has what dog in this fight. I think that a lot of independant centrist supporters of this bill are thinking that this is going to break up the republican party and that will send people over to the independent middle and maybe even some to the left. ”
Belive that if you want . However there is no overall trend developing. Again you oversetimate the appeal of all this
I have a very strong suspicion that the poster who calls himself BIGLSUSPORTSFAN is an exploiter of illegal immigrant slave labor. He doesn’t want to see his slave labor supply interrupted. Simply read his posts from above if you doubt my humble opinion. Read his posts and form your own opinion.
Hey AJ!! How does it feel having the likes of BIGLSUSPORTSFAN on your side of the debate?
Enforcement you said
“If there are 9000 now and they’re adding 2000 this year and 2400 in ‘08 how do they get to your 18000 number?”
First go back and read. We are not at 9000 now we are 13000 now. By the end of 2008 we should be up to the 18000 goal. Also note that the figures that are cited are for additional people that would be additional to the ones that were already apporoated for
As you put it the devil is in the details
AJ,
One of your readers, BIGLSUSPORTSFAN, doesn’t believe that it is worth the resources to prosecute illegal immigrants who have used someone else’s SSN. He is in favor of those people being declared legal and given a path to citizenship. I find such an opinion deplorable. Subhuman to be more precise.
What is your opinion on this AJ? I think your readers would like to know.
“have a very strong suspicion that the poster who calls himself BIGLSUSPORTSFAN is an exploiter of illegal immigrant slave labor. He doesn’t want to see his slave labor supply interrupted. Simply read his posts from above if you doubt my humble opinion. Read his posts and form your own opinion.
Left by apache_ip on ”
All right Apache we will just quit engaging each other tonight. I notice on here that people were complaining about being called racist and having their agendas and motives being given a taint it shouldnt. I don’t call people racist without cause and therefore I expect not to be called a exploiter of slave labor.
If you want to engage tomorrow on another thread fine.
BigLSU — go getem yourself! You are marvelously patient with the hard heads. All I can do is cheer from the sidelines, but I am so loud I may be disturbing the peace!
As for “overestimating the appeal of all this…” Yes! I am reminded of this each and every time I step away from my computer and out into the real world. Just this evening, I met a new neighbor who was running by — I needed help placing my “W-Then and Now” and my “Support GWB & the Troops” stickers. Seriously. The old ones were faded.
Anyway, it turns out Steve is a Republican and all in favor of comprehensive imm reform with a very generous guest worker component and pathway to citizenship. He also volunteered that he thinks building the wall is “silly” — which I partially agree with — especially after seeing the hilarious Penn & Teller Bullsh*t episode about the wall. Steve described himself as a mostly non-political guy and told me of his affection & respect for the many Mexican laborers he knows and has worked with. He told me his chief concern is the economy and not disrupting it with draconian measures or creating a huge bureaucracy to hunt down & deport illegals.
Yesterday I was shocked when my Mom went off on Newt (referring to his meglomaniacal (my word) performance on FoxNews Sunday yesterday). She told me ‘that loud mouth and all the rest of ’em have GOT to be shut down.’ I did not remind her that I’ve been warning her about ‘them’ for over a year now.
These may be small but I hope significant indicators that the vast middle of America is ready for compromise and a Bill! And that they’re worn out with the screeching from both extremities. Please God, make it stop already! Amen.
AJ,
One simple yes or no question –
Are you in favor of granting “legal” status and a pathway to citizenship to an illegal immigrant who has used someone else’s SSN.
Yes or No.
BigLSUFan,
Apache goes off sometimes. He had called me an exploiter too.
Apache,
Silly question. I was for the one strike your out component. Of course, identity theft can be a misdemeanor or a felony. Only felonies are considered worthy of deportation. If someone used the number but never took any benefits, seems he was actually paying into the person’s SS account – not stealing from it. Hard to say that is a felony. Case-by-case on this one. Misdemeanors are not sufficient crimes to bar work. Pay the fines, do the time in those cases.
Apache,
You ask I will answer. BigSLUFan is a breath of fresh air compared to the immigration hypochondriacs. Better question – how does it feel to NOT have us on YOUR side?
Wow. Holy sh*t!! I have completely misjudged you AJ. I had no idea you would come down on that side of such a serious issue. Thank you for clearing that up.
Do you mind if I occasionally remind your readers how you feel about this?