Jun 06 2007
The Immigration Insanity, II
Reader BigLSUFan noted that if the current bill, which supposedly suffers in the enforcement area, did not have the Guest Worker element it would have been praised to high heaven by the immigration hypochondriacs. No doubt that is very true. But since the border enforcement element is now apparently the damaged goods causing heartburn on the right – maybe we should junk that side and just do the Guest Worker program?? LOL! Of course no one on the far right will go for this. The excuses for inaction change as they are knocked down in good order. Watching the Senate I see more and more poison pills dying off. It will be interesting to see if this does pass. If the new center left-right coalition wins this, lots of more opportunities to work together will probably present themsleves.
One can hope. I’m off conservatism for a long time, personally.
AJ
As I stated in the last thread , the guest worker program is the most supported element of this whole bill across the board.
It is consistent and deep, all the polls show this.
I was shocked when you made this comment in the last similar thread because it is so inconsistent with the existing data.
I will have to take exception with your conclusion here.
Reviewing the data, the guest worker program has even more support than the fence for crying out loud.
Read the numbers.
Even when you discount the fence only crowd, the next closest increment is the fence plus guest worker only without a path to anything.
Combine those and you still get only single digit support.
AJ
You are a usual source of good basis, but you are on this one you are not looking at the underlying data which goes against the grain from your position.
There are even those that support the guest worker program and no fence.
Their logic is that if you have authorized positive id card guest workers that are the only ones who can be employed, then all the illegals here won’t be able to get a job and they will self deport, eliminating the need for a fence.
I hate to say it AJ, but you are stretching logic and going out on the edge here.
You know I read data all the time and I can pick small pieces out of the flood of data.
I totally respect you , but this post is contrary to the base of data.
IIt is an interesting thing to think about. What if Rep Tancredo(that is stil lirked over the WH Christmas party) had introduced a bill last year with:
heavy fines for employers,
A real ID for some kind of current legal migrant workforce, increased border patrol,
a massive data base and verfication system that employers would have to access thus making convictions against those that don’t more likely,
increased border security,
raised fines and penatlies for those that engage in document fraud, more interior work place enforcement, etc
BUT DID NOT REGULARIZE ANY OF THE ILLEGALS would we hear cries that this was all silly?Why waste the money the Govt will not do it. Would people be saying this sounds like just another big Govt project or would they be going “Hell YEah” Rock on Tancredo finally someone that hears us.
“REGULARIZE”???? You do mean LEGALIZE, don’t you? Why is it so hard for some of you to grasp the fact that these people are breaking the law. It almost seems like that word illegal just doesn’t make it past your lips sometimes. They are not IRREGULAR ALIENS walking around with three eyes and one arm longer than the other!
None of it does anything different if the border is still a sieve!
“”“REGULARIZEâ€???? You do mean LEGALIZE, don’t you? Why is it so hard for some of you to grasp the fact that these people are breaking the law. It almost seems like that word illegal just doesn’t make it past your lips sometimes. They are not IRREGULAR ALIENS walking around with three eyes and one arm longer than the other!
None of it does anything different if the border is still a sieve!””
Bikerken call it Regularize or legalize. I say regualrize because often people seem to denote legalization with citizenship for some reason.
Also the illegals are not the only ones breaking the law here or helping that law breaking. Millions of Americas profiting off the labor and industry of aliens. At some point we should ask if the law makes sense. As one of my favorite bloggers said
“The Pharisees came to be thought of negatively not because they were “bad people†but because they were inflexible as to the application of law – they refused to see individual cases for what they were. In America, our laws are purposely flexible, meant to suit a situation, whereby one murder is murder, and one is self-defense. One car accident is an accident and one is reckless homicide. In America “enforce the existing laws†is much more complicated than it sounds…and if it were not, well…then our national soul would already be lost”.
As to the border being a sieve. Get this stuff online and working and quickly people will find it aint so easy to work here. Simple economics really.A ever increasing cost to cross the border versus rapding diminshing rate of returns once you get here. Therefore less migration
It aint all about border security and all the focus can not be focused on that because to do so missess how to correct the porblem
BIGSLU The thing you’re not understanding is that they don’t give a rats fanny what laws we pass. Anything they can take advantage of they will, anything that causes them the list bit of incovnience, they ignore. They will keep coming because they can get a heck of a lot for free here, period. It is way too easy for them to work up here and I DO NOT trust our EL Presidente to stop that. Why are you so against a fence? Is it becuase you are heavily involved in the Catholic church which has expoused a no borders, let them all in policy so they can get more church members? Because we all know they have been having their problems filling the pews up here.
I don’t understand this. Now the argument seems to be one of utter futility. “The government WILL NOT enforce the bill, but it absolutely must be killed anyway! The illegals will keep swarming into our country no matter what, but we HAVE to build a fence, even though ¡El Presidentissimo Jorgé Fidel Vicente Chavez Booooooosh! will never make it happen!”
I give up. It’s clear that the “death before amnesty” people are furious about things as they now stand, but I have NO clue what they actually want (that could actually be achieved via this Congress, that is).
Like I said in another comment — if you spend a year jumping up and down screaming about the Mexican invasion, and then your response to the first serious bill intended to address the problem (however inadequately) is to jump up and down screaming that the bill needs to be killed, and you don’t have any serious suggestions for what solutions should be employed instead, you put your credibility at risk (to put it charitably).
So Aitch, you’re saying you can’t follow a logical sequence of events. So why are you trying to argue a point that you admit you can’t follow.
I think the point is, if the border is not secure, none of the bill matters. Even if the border is secured but you make ALL illegals, legal then you won’t have any laws to enforce. You won’t need a guest worker program, they won’t be guests they’ll be legal illegals.
Funny how people with no reasoning ability try to draw some impossible scenario and act like it’s someone else’s impossible idea.
You’re not serious about the whole damn security issue anyhow, so quit pretending….
What was that? Oh, it was just another “death before amnesty” type complaining about insecure borders and making illegals legal, and shaking his fist at other posters. They seem to have been doing it a lot over the past month.
Reader BigLSUFan noted that if the current bill, which supposedly suffers in the enforcement area, did not have the Guest Worker element it would have been praised to high heaven by the immigration hypochondriacs.
still chuckling, and us……uhhhh hmmm what is our name of the day? hardliner, no, far right, jerk, no, hypochondriacs, yea yea that’s it for today…… we would like to note that BigLSuFan is full of crap.(to put it mildly) One of the few things in the bill us ….. uhhh hmmm what was our name again, oh yea, hypochondriacs do find acceptable is the guest worker program. So anyone that would insinuate otherwise is as out of tune as those that have not read the bill…. to put it nicely.
supposedly suffers in the enforcement area
Suffers? I didn’t know suffers was another word for non-existent.
learned something today….
Suffers=non-existent. Okay.
Wonder what the name for us uhhh hmmm oh yea, hypochondriacs will be tomorrow?
close italics
AJ close that italics html please
“I don’t understand this. Now the argument seems to be one of utter futility. “The government WILL NOT enforce the bill, but it absolutely must be killed anyway!”
I’m starting to believe that amnesty pushers are simply an obtuse lot. Here is someone who doesn’t understand that the essence of the bill is an amnesty RIGHT AWAY that everyone *does* believe will happen, along with all of its attendant ill consequences, in exchange for later border security. I don’t know how you can’t have come to the realization that that’s what is being offered. Therefore, even if you are someone who thinks that MIGHT be a reasonable trade-off, you must wrestle with the realities of an amnesty that will encourage future illegal behavior (we have precedent here) without the means to stop it.
The logic of LSUfan is also comical it’s in it’s ineptitude. Let’s see if I have it right. Opponents of the amnesty bill might support it, or at least wouldn’t act to defeat it, if it contained only measures for enforcement although still unconvinced that the government would ever follow through. Let me break it down for the simple-minded:
Unfulfilled promises to secure an unsecured border ultimately results in no change, all else being equal. It may do nothing, but surely won’t make things worse and may just make things better, however slim a proposition we may find that. OTOH unfulfilled promises to secure the border coupled with an amnesty that will only encourage future illegal behavior is a DISASTER. In this scenario, things will absolutely be made worse.