Jun 08 2007
Hypochondriacs Win – They Get What They Hate So Much
Will we see any new border enhancements? No.
Will we see 18,000 new border patrol agents? No.
So the border will be as bad as it is today – thanks to the immigration hypochondriacs
Will we see the long term illegal immigration population step forward to be background checked? No
Will we see them pay the back taxes they owe the country? No.
Will they pay a fine for breaking the law? No.
Will they be using tamper proof IDs so we know they are registered immigrants? No
Will we be able to punish employers for hiring illegal aliens? No better than today.
So the 12-20 milliion illegal aliens here now will continue to live in an underground economy while living off our social services. And we have the immigration hypochondriacs – left and right – to thank for this ‘status quo’.
Will we be able to deport violent criminals BECAUSE they committed a crime (and not try and use the ‘illegal entry’ process for deportation which is seriously broke)? No. We get to live with these criminal living amongst us for a long time more. We have the immigration hypochondriacs to thank for that too.
Will we have a real temporary work program here with time limits and no path to citizenship. Nope. The hypochondriacs have killed that idea too.
There is no perfection in legislation. By our vaunted form of democracy it entails compromise to get things tackled. While the far left and right cheer in their continued success at stalling all the good ideas that were IN the bill, usually based on speculation and exagerration and myths like “just enforce the law” (wow – like that worked over the last 20 years), we have as a result of all this exactly what they supposedly hated. But the reality is they hated being wrong. They hated Bush for not agreeing with them. They hated those of us who use to align with them in a governing coalition because we disagreed with them and agreed with some democrats.
The GOP is a dysfunctional mess. The coalition has run out of common ground. The far right made that clear. If this bill passed with elements others thought were good starts at solving problems they would have none of it. It was too much for them. They found solace in the imperfections so they could rationalize why all the things listed above just could not happen now. They pushed for perfection in a bill and purity in a majority. Those things do not exist. And that is why the GOP is a busted movement. When you fight against those who would try something to make a difference so you can keep the status quo you are a party devoid of ideas and hope. All the rationalizations are irrelevent. I have heard all the wild claims (and answered them – but people not listening miss the answers). The bottom line is how I measure success. The far right ruined another chance to fix this problem. Just as they did in 2006.
Anyone who lauds this outcome cannot get my support. Failure is nothing to cheer. And it is nothing to fight for. We have nothing on immigration – again. And those who brought us this big zero can be sure of this. I will give them credit for their efforts. They failed, as they wanted us to. And I have to say this is a joke:
Now We Can Get to Work
Er… No. We can’t. I for one don’t trust the GOP to deal with people in a respectful manner on this issue. I don’t trust the GOP to use common sense – especially after all the wild claims that were thrown about. And I don’t trust the GOP to stand by as a good faith ally – they tend to throw people under the bus who don’t pass their purity tests. No, I don’t think anyone will trust the GOP on this issue. If we want reform, it will require new people in Congress. And that will take many years to happen. So we sit with the mess we have until we can get cooler heads in office.
Update: I am not the only one who finds the stated positions of the far right a jumbled mess of incoherent rationalizations:
What do these folks want?
They want the borders secured, the laws obeyed, English spoken, taxes paid, costs raised on employers of illegal workers, welfare payments suppressed, enclaved Spanish neighborhoods broken up and a very, very long path to citizenship. In the current debate, these complaints pour forth almost randomly, based on whichever datapoint needs to be refuted.
To those of us on the other side of the argument, a lot of this often seems unsupported, contradictory, impossible to achieve or confused. Wherever the truth lies, whenever a political movement like this erupts and takes root in most regions of the country, some primary American nerve has been touched. What we’ve hit here is the country’s central nervous system–the idea of citizenship.
A pretty good assessment. The article is insightful. The problem for me is the hypocrisy. Good citizenship means working together to solve problems, not tank solutions. There were going to be warts on this bill. There were going to be holes. But there was also a lot of really good ideas and changes. Anyone can find holes and warts in legislation. That is not citizenship in my opinion. There are infinite reasons one can dream up to not act. This is not a talent like some pretend it to be. Leaders find reasons to get things done. They find ways to get things done. We seem to be lacking leaders these days.
Oh well, I guess the illegal immigration thing wasn’t quite so bad after all.
[laughing, shaking my head]
AJ: as usual, on this topic, you are not only completely wrong, but you also completely misrepresent what happened.
I can only say, again, that you do this, because you are so tied up in your personal view on this issue, your love of your own analysis, that you’ve unfortunately adopted on this issue, the manner and debating tactics of a petulant child: i.e., I’m right no matter what, regardless of the facts, because I say so, and if you don’t like it, I’ll take my ball and go home!
That’s unfortunate AJ, because not only are you a smarter person than that, but you’re a better person than that!
The ACTUAL FACTS of this issue are these:
a) the “right” didn’t vote against, nor kill any bill, including the Immigration Bill!
b) in fact, the vote last night, by the “right”, and their allies, was NOT to “kill” the bill, but to actually keep OPEN the debate!
c) that’s not “killing” the bill AJ, that’s an effort, in a Representative Republic, to KEEP DEBATE going, and seeking to improve a Flawed Product!
d) any other “spin” you put on it AJ, is just completely and thoroughly wrong. They didn’t vote to kill the bill AJ, they voted to keep debate open, and work to continue improving it!
e) that’s because, the vote last night was NOT a vote “passage” AJ, it was a vote on “Cloture”, which means, as you should know, because you grew up in DC, it was a vote NOT to end “debate”, but to keep it open, so Senators could keep open the process of improving the bill via amendments!
f) It was Harry Reid, who after the rejection of the Cloture vote, “tabled” the Bill! IT WAS HARRY REID, AJ, NOT the “right”, not me, not the “hypochondricacs” AJ, it was HARRY REID who decided, in a pique, to table the bill. NO ONE VOTED AGAINST THE BILL AJ, they voted to keep it open! That’s a FACT!
g) IF you think that’s obstructionist AJ, or being a “hypochondriac” AJ, you’re 180 degress out from reality, on this issue!
h) aside from that Fact, you just plain get the Facts of the content of the bill, and current law, Wrong! Currently, we can in fact, deport people just for violating the law, and being ILLEGAL aliens; that’s current US Law, the only thing missing, is the Political WILL! The bill, as voted on last night, in fact, REMOVED that provision, and thus Millions of ILLEGALS, such as criminals, sex offenders, possible terrorism suspects, identity theft recipients, wouldn’t have been “deportable” under the new bill!
Again AJ, you state that which is exactly 180% opposite of the actual Facts and Truth and Reality!
i) and finally, you plain are wrong, in stating the intentions of most of the people who actually voted against Cloture, and thus who wanted to keep talking about the bill! I’m not talking about the nutbags such as Tancredo, who’s against all immigration, or the equally nutbag Leftists, who are interested in only open borders, and giving the entire country away to ILLEGALS. I’m talking about the majority of people who voted against Cloture; did so, NOT because they’re against “immigration” or “immigrants” or a “guest worker program”, etc., as you again, incorrectly try to portray; they did so because legitimately they had real concerns about the bill in it’s current form, and they wanted to continue to discuss and debate and make improvements. Again, it was HARRY REID who decided, that he’d take advantage of his leadership position, to cut off debate on the bill, and table it!
I have a question, which I know you’ll refuse to answer AJ, but I have a simple question for you:
The Democrats, now in control of both Houses of Congress, took 108 days (with you critcizing them EVERY step of the way!); took 108 days to put together a Defense Funding Bill, for our troops, going thru all their histrionics, writing 3 different versions, trying to force a withdraw schedule on the President, etc., before they finally got the one to the President that he wanted, and signed!
108 DAYS! AJ, they debated that bill!
That was an important bill, by the way!
This Immigration Reform bill, is NO LESS IMPORTANT!
Why the RUSH? WHY the rush to force it thru, with a little debate and reform as possible; why the attempt to ram it down the throats of the American people, with them seeing as little as possible of it, and with a few Improving amendments as possible attached?
WHY can’t they keep debate open on this issue, for 108 days AJ, as well?
WHY?
Why does Harry Reid, HAVE to “table” the bill AJ, after just 2 – 3 weeks, when in Fact, the majority of members voted, NOT TO KILL THE BILL, but to keep debate going on the Bill?
WHY AJ, why?
Don’t you think that as important as bill as this AJ, deserves 108 days of honest, open debate, and a chance to make the BEST bill possible?
I’m just curious about that AJ?
This is an interesting paragraph:
The problem for me is the hypocrisy. (Hmmmmmmm?? ) Good citizenship means working together to solve problems (that’s funny, from day one, you wanted your way, or the highway for the rest of us!), not tank solutions. There were going to be warts on this bill. (which you never admitted until now!)There were going to be wholes. But there was also a lot of really good ideas and changes. (name one, please?) Anyone can find holes and warts in legislation. That is not citizenship in my opinion. (I disagree, who “wins”??) There are infinite reasons one can dream up to not act. This is not a talent like some pretend it to be. Leaders find reasons to get things done. (NOT the wrong things, that’s not “leadeship”, that’s political expediency) They find ways to get things done. (Correct things, not wrong things, leaders don’t attack their own supporters, people who’ve stuck with them thru thick and thin, then abandon them when they think they no longer need them!) We seem to be lacking leaders these days. (We agree on this, but not because of what you think!)
Dale,
That was an interesting bit of spin. I never said my way or the highway. The Bill is comprehensive and has elements for a broad coalition. It is the fence-only (wish we could deport) crowd who cannot abide the extra measures. And I have said from day one it would not be perfect.
I stopped reading after that. If you have to lie about what I wrote (and which is still here on this site) to feel good about your position then there is no reason to read on. Is there?
Dale,
I also fail to see what is wrong with me being tide up in my personal view! I mean, it is my site and these are my thoughts! Seems you don’t like me having my view. Probably because it clashes with yours. Now that is an interesting view of a democratic process.
Possible Good news for AJ:
It’s Not Over [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
A Senate aide cautions:
First, yes, the victory yesterday – a product of tireless efforts by a handful of conservative Senators and staff – is a nice pause in this debacle. But I am afraid that is all it may be… the White House is still 100% committed to getting this bill passed. Harry Reid is looking to actually accomplish SOMETHING for crying out loud… and there is no tiring by … the entire “deal-making” team.
The White House has a full plan of attack. They are ready to start plucking votes one-by-one. Conservatives should note precisely which Senators were with us on defeating cloture and compare that to how Senators may change if the bill comes back… in other words, we should make sure we know which Senators are bought-off if the White House does what we believe they will.
The sad reality is that people are putting far too much stock in the votes against cloture for some of the deal-makers. Some felt they had to vote that way in order to be “fair” to the caucus. However, those guys were ready to vote the other way if they had felt they could get away with it. Seriously, don’t make too much of their votes…
there were very specific reasons why they did it – and it had to do with the tough stances of a few conservative senators…
06/08 05:56 AM
And some insight:
Coming Home [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
From a Senate staffer: “[Kyl] has always told his colleagues that he would suport their right to offer amendments and wouldn’t let them be shut out by the Dems. He was adamant about this. This thing was doomed when it became clear that Reid wasn’t going to allow ample debate for Sessions and DeMint; Kyl then stood by his fellow conservatives to protect their rights to amend and debate.”
This Senate Guy adds: “I will note that, of the dealmakers, only Kyl stood up for conservatives. After repeated promises to the contrary, Graham, McCain, Martinez, and Specter all told the GOP senators to stuff it and tried to block further amendments.”
06/08 02:30 AM
So, maybe we still can get Amnesty First, Security second, Stay tuned..
AJ,
I think this is far from dead yet.
I will be interested to see what comes down on the left over the weekend and when George Bush gets back in town. ALthough there are some far left immigrant groups, I think many are going to be awefully upset at Reid and Comapnay of they playing politics wit this uissue. We shall see. I f their is pressure to move on for the left
AJ: sadly, it’s not “spin”; it’s reality!
You’ve relentlessly attacked anyone and everyone, via your posts, and your comments in your threads, that’s even had the temerity to disagree on this subject.
I for instance, stated repeatedly, I didn’t want the bill to “fail”, but I personally would like some “improvements” in it. But that’s just me.
Other people who have stated they were for a “guest worker” program, etc., but wanted some things changed, were also relentless attacked, and called names!
IF that is NOT “my way or the highway” AJ, I don’t know what is?
Your continued denunciation of the “fence-only” crowd, lumps everyone into that category, including people such as myself, who’ve in fact, said we ARE not for that!
“If you have to lie about what I wrote (and which is still here on this site) to feel good about your position then there is no reason to read on. Is there?”
That’s just a plain fallacy AJ; I have not LIED, one iota, about anything! You’re upset, because a) I disagree with you b) have said so repeatedly c) turned your own words back on you!
That’s it, it’s no more complex than that. Lied; I have never lied to you, or on your board, and it’s a strawman and disingenuous to say so!
” I also fail to see what is wrong with me being tide up in my personal view! I mean, it is my site and these are my thoughts! Seems you don’t like me having my view. Probably because it clashes with yours. Now that is an interesting view of a democratic process. ”
Sadly, more completely disingenous statements, and strawman arguments, to start a fight, and avoid answering the questions that I, and many others have asked you, in order to HAVE A DISCUSSION with you, on this topic!
If you’re read anything I’ve written, I’ve repeatedly stated that this is YOUR Blog, and you’re obviously free to do whatever you want with it! I’ve posted that here, many times!
However, I’ve tried to point out, rationally, that being tied up so much in your personal analysis, causes you to do EXACTLY what you do, do: i.e. you won’t listen to any suggestions, advice, comments from anyone else, even if it’s rational, logical, and based upon Fact, as opposed to emotion! A good analysis, considers ALL FACTS/input, constantly re-evaluates, and arrives at a conclusion that is derived upon ALL the facts available, as opposed to deciding upon the Answer before hand, and then refute any/all Facts, to arrive at their own preconceived Conclusion!
However, If you wish to do that, as YOUR Blog, and as I have repeatedly stated, you are certainly capable of doing it!
But, as long as YOU let me comment on your Blog, I’m also “free” to point out, how that is a weakness of yours, am I not?
If I’m not, or you don’t wish me to comment on it anymore, just tell me; again, YOU HAVE THE POWER, I do not; but with power, comes responsibility to use it wisely!
As a result, you’re last two comments are completely inaccurate!
I never said you couldn’t have your own view, and certainly if your view clashes with mine, you are entitled to it; I’ve also said that repeatedly!
Conversely, however, you’ve done your best to deny those of us who disagree with you the same “rights”! It’s like the talking heads on TV these day, he who shouts the loudest, and the longest, “wins” the argument!
Those of us, who’ve been trying to have rational, reasoned, “debate” on this issue, with you, are shouted down, by you, and your supporters.
Again, since it’s YOUR site, you’re free to do that, obviously, I just question the long-term wisdom of that approach, for those of us who actually like you, respect you, admire your Blog, and read you every day!
Again however, you made the point emphatically, it’s yours, do with it as you wish, of course.
Your very last comment of course, is just a strawman, to try and turn the whole thing back on me!
Bottomline AJ; you’re upset. You’re upset not because people like me, and LE, and Stevevs and Apache and Bikerken are a threat to you, or don’t like you, or criticize you, or attack you, none of which we’ve done; no, you’re upset because we only Disagree with you, and have ask you to debate this issue rationally with us.
My “views” on this subject AJ, don’t have to be “right”, or “correct”; none of us is a Deity, that KNOWS that is the case; we’re all imperfect human beings AJ, we’re not omniscient!
But that’s the whole purpose of debate, and discussions, isn’t it?
To work it out?
What’s intriguing to me, is that you’ve refused to do even that, with us, on this topic!
That’s all I’ve ever said, and all I’ve ever meant!
You’re a good guy AJ, I think, since I never met you; I personally think, your heart, and your head, are in the “right” place; at least, according to me!
I agree with you personally, on almost every other issue you post about. I happen to personally disagree with you, on this issue, for reasons I’ve laid out in depth.
But I’ve been willing to be open minded about this, and discuss it with you, and the other readers.
That “respect”, has not been returned!
Why be so upset?
You lectured us over the last two weeks about Democracy
meaning that you lose sometimes, necessary unless you intend
for your opponents to lose every time. Point taken.
You wanted a bill and you didn’t get one.
Personally I would rather not have a bad bill. I’d rather have
no bill at all. That means there will still be an imperative to try again
in the future. Social security didn’t get fixed either. We probably
have fewer than twenty-nine years left to fix it. So what?
This was an example of democracy, in confusion, and finding the
best possible answer, for now.
As far as the terrorism part goes, unlikely any bill will fix it in time.
Iranian cells, Al-qaeda cells, they probably have been here for years.
Did they bring any WMDs in? I don’t know. Either they did or
they didn’t. But let’s not pretend that we turned our backs on our
only chance to create a hermetic seal on our southern border.
That was never on offer. The terrorism attacks will need to be
dealt with separately, by the spooks and by the threat of
retaliation in kind.
Enough people did not want this bill and it failed. Isn’t that how it
is supposed to work?
Upset? That’s funny. I just noted the damage done by the far right. I am not upset. As many of us who supported the bill will tell you, this last round with the far right as been very refreshing. It has made it easier to part company when they have wrought so much damage for their own causes. They have some good intentions, some not so good. But clearly success is not something they will be producing any time soon.
They bashed Bush because they were upset. Me, I am an independent. Always have been. Clearly I always will be. I am one conservative indepedents to part company with the GOP. Why would that make me upset? I think it is a smart move.
Dale,
I fail to understand what your point is? We disagree and I find your side an abysmal failure on this matter. I simply pointed out the failures. I do not attack people. I challenge them. I disagree. But attack them? You clearly misrepresented my words. Look over your comment to me and then explain how I attacked you?
AJ: are you saying, because I’ve been Clear on this point: I supported the bill, with improvments!
And besides, the bill was NOT “defeated” for Passage, Cloture, was the ONLY thing turned down last night.
Thus, the idea to “table” the bill, is Harry Reid’s, not the “right” nor the “left” nor the middle.
The people who voted on Cloture did so, to keep Debate OPEN, that’s it!
So, are you saying, that because I believed the bill should be debated some more, and some “improvements'” made via admendments, and that the Senators that I backed, voted to KEEP DEBATE OPEN, are you saying that I am on that “side” that is anti-immigrant, like Tancredo, and that “we” are fault for the bill failing?
Is that what you are saying?