Jun 09 2007
Why The Far Right Is Out Of The Immigration Debate
The far fight, the immigration hypochondriacs as I like to call them, are working themselves to the margins. Especially when they complain about name calling, at which point I cannot help but think of these people – who call their conservative opposition ‘traitors’ and claim they the only “Real American” position – the whiny immigration hypochondriacs. Politics ain’t for those easily hurt. And hypocrites are just too much to stand after a while. But don’t take my word for it, take the word of Senator Kyl, who like me and many others want tough laws and a strong border, but will not go beyond fines and back taxes for those who have been here illegally for a long period of time:
Chief among the complaints has been the charge that the immigration compromise would offer “amnesty” to 12 million illegal immigrants. Law-and-order conservatives say these people are lawbreakers and shouldn’t be rewarded for cheating. That’s a position Mr. Kyl himself took in his last election. What does he say now about amnesty?
“Everyone has their own definition, I have found,” he says, “I think it is a dead-end debate. We have tried to do as many things as we can to ensure that for those that get to stay, they pay a price, and I don’t think it’s amnesty. For those who say, ‘This bill is amnesty, we shouldn’t pass it,’ one of my responses is, ‘OK, so do you like what we have?'”He means the current system, in which millions of immigrants are here illegally, and Washington does nothing about it. “This is de facto amnesty,” he says.
In addition to this nonsense from those who have no ideas but endless complaints is the issue of using violent crimes as a reasonable excuse to end our hospitality. The new bill makes it possible to deport people who commit or have committed violent crimes. Not for being here illegally, which is a process crime where fines and reparations (back taxes) are the norm. This is NOT amnesty by a long shot. But this ability to boot the real criminals is being held up by people who want to punish the process crimes more. So what is their lame answer? They say we will keep the hardened criminals until we get enough blood from the process crimes.
The immigration hypochondriacs are as incoherent as they are shrill. We have gang members and murderers and rapists here who we cannot deport under current law because of their violent crimes, but who we could deport tomorrow if this bill passes. No bill is perfect. No law enforcement is perfect. The hypochondriacs complain it will not be 100% effective. Nothing is. But even if it was 50% effective (my guess is it will be more like 85%), that means half the violent criminals who are uninvited guests can be given the boot. I will take that over more marginal hoops for the non-violent illegal aliens any day. But then I am not an immigration hypochondriac.
I would never leave something like 1-2 million criminals on our streets to stiffen penalties on 10+ million people doing nothing more than making a living. Making a living illegally, but still their crime is making a living here without our invitation or permission. But the far right is cheering how they are so much more American than the rest because they found some marginal warts on a bill and left 1-2 million violent illegal aliens on our streets. Imagine the twisted logic that has Malkin and Levin and others crowing about how they left us 1-2 million criminals to go after our children and neighbors. Incoherent? Absolutely. It borders on insanity. More from Kyl on what is going to happen now – and why the far right is properly going to be excluded from the equation:
This reality principle is a point he returns to frequently in our conversation. “There are a lot of things in the bill I’m still not happy with . . . It’s impossible to make the existing system work so we have to change the law, and changing the law requires Democratic votes, so you have to make concessions to Democrats.”
I agree. The far right has left this mess so as to make sure we, the un-American traitors, get a taste of these criminals in a hope we will become as obsessed and inflexible as them. The far right wanted us to “learn a lesson”, and a clear and obvious element of that lesson was to leave the violent criminals here as they diverted talk about lack of enforcement of our current laws. Our current laws don’t work, and they do not allow us to boot people for criminal acts here and prior to coming here. The far right knows this. And they are proud they have left 1-2 million of these criminals here to remind us why they are so pro-enforcement.
Hypocrisy is ripe on the far right. They call conservative opposition traitors as they tear asunder the governing coalition. They call Bush un-American because he stood by his positions he held for almost a decade now. And now they have with malice of forethought, left 1-2 million violent criminals on our streets because they don’t like the fines and back taxes on the non-violent criminals. No wonder we need to move these people out of the picture. Their next move to teach us a lesson could be even worse. They could propose we stop the airport security we put in place after 9-11, to teach us another lesson. This kind of twisted logic makes alliances with these people too high a price. The next citizen to die at the hands of a repeat offender illegal immigrant will have the far right to thank for their lesson. Because clearly it is more important to hammer the non-violent criminals than to get the violent ones out of here. It is so obvious why this is Pro-America, what is best for America, saving America. Can’t all you losers in the center who support the immigration bill see that?
Yeah – we see your logic. Explain it again when another child is attacked. Explain to the parent’s why it was so important to leave the predator we could have gotten off the street right here, to prey again.
Addendum: The supporters of the insanity are all upset I pointed out the fruits of their efforts! Welcome to tough love. Let me be clear, I am simply giving the far right all the credit they are due for stopping everything in this bill. They deserve to be recognized for their achievements. Too harsh? Damn, too bad. The one element of this bill, which made it worthwhile, was the ability to get the hardened criminals who are not citizens of this country out of here. The so-called “law and order” crowd left us with anarchy and criminals. Also known as the ‘status quo’. I will repeat the cold hard facts of life for all those out there upset I find their actions hypocritical and dangerous.
Let’s assume 1 million of the 12+ million here illegally are proven criminals a simple background check from US law enforcement would find immediately. This is actually a LOW estimate if (a) you believe the crime rate in the immigration is higher than the US population and (b) there are many more than 12 million illegal aliens in our country. But let’s just be conservative – in the true sense of the word. 1 million criminal aliens means that is one dangerous person for every 300 people in the US. If your school has 300 kids that means they have their own deadly alien nearby, ready to take one out. If you have 2,000 kids in your high school, you have over 6 of these animals to prey on your school. Cold hard numbers, not gibberish about how many miles of fence are being built.
If the new laws in the bill the far right so proudly derailed could take 85% of these people off the streets and ship them out of this country then that means 850,000 criminals off our streets. But that was ‘imperfection’ to the far right. Forget about their obsession about fines and taxes for the rest of the illegal aliens here, they said there was not enough law enforcement! Instead of leaving us 15 out of hundred, the left us 100 out 100! Their obsessive tunnel vision made it seem rational to them to leave 850,000 criminals on the street because we could not get 1 million? They did not give us anything that would take 1 million off the street; they just said it was better to keep 1 million foreign criminals in this country instead of what might come. Well, what might have come, what was likely to come, was the removal of all but 150,000 of those criminals.
This is the text book example of perfect being the evil of good. The so called American heroes who tout law enforcement over everything else left us with no new laws, no new legal resources and all the criminals we could have booted out of here. Sorry, but I just wanted to make sure those who suffer harm from the 850,000 or so criminals the far right left us knew who to thank. And even, as I said above, the actual performance was 500,000 (50%) reduction – that was 500,000 less victims too. This is the result of the hard work of the far right. I am just giving credit were credit is due. And honestly, I am sorry it hurts anyone’s feelings to be told the harsh truth so brutally. But the fear of the unknown left us the animals who prey on us and our children. Did they do this deliberately? Hell no. They did it because they were ideologically blinded to the ramifications of their actions. Just like liberals cannot fathom the ramifications of giving Iraq to al Qaeda, the far right could not grasp the ramifications of leaving all those foreign criminals here – since there are very few options to get rid of them now. The far right, crowing as the saviors of America, made that decision for all of us. They knew we would applaud their decisions to leave the mess and the criminals and do nothing.
Far right – take a bow. You deserve it. You are the “law and order” defenders. Except when you decide to leave 1-2 million deadly criminals on our streets.
Addendum: We can see the response from the oppoents of the bill that could have saved 100’s of thousands of victims. Denial. They claim current deportation laws would work just fine. Current deportation laws DO NOT expidite the red tape and limit the process for violent criminals. There is no fast track to the exits for violent criminals in current laws. They know this. They are pretending misdemeanor charges on illegal entry can be used to get at criminals. As I posted the far right is delusional in their beliefs in myths like the ones posted below. The fact is under the new law we could deport every repeat criminal we find. Of course they are not going to come forward – they won’t now. But at least when you have them they can get a fast track out of here with the new laws.. If deportation was so simple to do for convicted violent criminals they would be out of here already.
Clearly they are still here and will be until we change the laws so that committing a violent crime trumps all process and appeal otopms.. What we see from the far right is delusion and denial. They claim the new laws would not do anything! They claim the new laws would not be enforced.
They claim a lot – and they have no proof they are right. They claim these outrageous things because they need to believe not a single violent illegal alien would have an expidited and immediate deportation for a violent criminal act, short-cutting the lengthy deportation process we now have for the crime of illegal entry. And let’s not even talk about the LEGAL aliens who commit crimes who too should be deported. We cannot do anything about those criminals, thanks to the far right.
The far right continues this farce because they have to. They went out on a limb and told themselves they were our saviors. They cannot live with themselves if they are, in fact, the force that left the criminals here to prey on our citizens. But they are the ones who did this. They knew this was in the bill. And they made up rationalizations to ignore this so they could be heroes.
They are not heroes. Heroes do not enable violent criminals the opportunity to prey on more victims. If I am right and roughly 850,000 future victims could be saved from criminal violence then it was worth passing the bill and fixing holes and warts with future bills. 850,000 potential victims are now out there because some inflexible people couldn’t believe that a law that would allow immediate deportation could work. Personally, I could not stand the guilt of not first seeing if it could do some good first. Why have any laws at all if you do not believe they will work? Answer that protectors of ‘law and order’!
Jay Cost, that brilliant young political scientist says it best–This was not a failure; it was democracy as Madison envisioned it:
“I must admit that I find myself disappointed when journalists with years of experience covering Washington watch our system stultify efforts to alter the status quo, and then declare – in so many words – that a failure has occurred. There was no failure here. A sole senator from North Dakota effectively vetoed it. This was an archetypical Madisonian moment! This was a sign that our system is functioning well – regardless of whether the bill’s policy prescription was an objectively prudent course of action to take. It was a divisive bill whose supporters constituted only a faction of the public. Even if the faction was the so-called “moderate,” “sensible,” “middle” – this bill’s coalition was never anything more than a faction within the whole. Thus, their bill was effectively vetoed.
The proclamations of failure from journalists like Mr. Franken discourage me because they engender in the public a sense that our system is not working as it should when, in fact, it is working exactly as it should. Our governing system is extremely complicated, our education system gives short shrift to civics training, and so there is a wide divergence between what the average citizen thinks our system was intended to do, and what it was actually intended to do. Misguided criticisms from journalists who look fondly upon those halcyon days of programmatic efficiency that never existed only exacerbate this disconnection.
When there is a nationwide consensus of significant size on the issue of immigration, then there will be reform. In the meantime, let’s stop implying that our system has failed us. It hasn’t. This “failure” is actually all part and parcel of the Madisonian system. Learn it, love it, live it. Believe me, you have no other choice. It’s not like you can change it.”
Madison
AJ
Ok I have seen your rant, now answer the question.
What section of this bill provides for this new capability?
I can’t find it.
Also, even if it existed it would STILL require a deportation hearing.
AJ said
You do KNOW that in deportation hearings you cannot bring up priors, just like you can’t in ANY OTHER case? Right? You are innocent until proven guilty and prior behavior is only used in sentencing – not in determining guilt. So the deportation hearings cannot distinguish murderers from nannies?
I don’t know how many deportation hearing you have been to, but I have been through over 50 when I was running my companies because an illegal snuck through the system.
Yes you can refer to priors just like the same condition occurs for all citizen trials.
You are not trying them on that you are trying them on the CURRENT violation.
So if you have an illegal drug dealer you are deporting him under that EXISTING statute.
It doesn’t matter if he beat his wife, shot his dog, or stole a neighbors car.
All that matters is the current issue he is charged with.
_ [attempt to close runaway link]
Apparently we’re at an impasse. The current laws, which people want enforced, are apparently unenforceable or unworkable for one reason or another, yet the death-before-amnesty people not only insist that the current laws be enforced but will also kill any new bill on the grounds that the government cannot be trusted to enforce new laws because they haven’t been enforcing the old laws. So even if Congress bounces back and makes a new proposal in a few weeks or months, we’ll get to witness another uprising.
In the meantime, the “invasion” continues unchecked.
Exactly Merlin. Except under the new law one strike and they are out!
Priors now count. But thanks – not even the ACLU could keep 1+ Million foreign criminals on our streets in a single week of obstructionism….
I am serious. You all should be so proud of what you wrought. It is truly stunning.
Clarice,
Hold onto that thought. When the bill comes back and passes I expect to see the same respect for the process when the far right loses. And it is losing. Round by round they are losing. That is also democracy. As is pointing out why a party or position is dangerous, incoherent and needs to be defeated at all costs.
When the center delivers its verdict on immigration and the GOP – I actually do not expect the far right to be able to honor the process. They will scream traitor and un-American. I just said their positions where incoherent and left us with all these criminals on the streets. Those are facts. I never called anyone a traitor.
And I doubt I will get much respect for taking up a cause and fighting an entrenched opposition which I have found has lost its way. LOL! Will I get the same respect Lieberman got when he took on Ned Lamont and the leftwing fringe?
LOL! Not holding my breathe. But like Joe I am enjoying myself.
Brandon,
You would sit watching a fence get built and leave criminals on the streets we could deport now? OK, that’s really insane. BTW – we can do more than one thing. And it is the far rights tunnel vision on those mythical magical borders which caused the rift.
You want to join the broader conservative movement? Let the bill pass since it has broad support. Otherwise be prepared to do battle and stay in the minority. The moderates are leaving the party in droves. Purity and minority or compromise and governance.
There are no other options. And there is no such thing as a secure border. Most illegals overstay their legal visit. Duh.
How in the name of basic math do you deport 12 million workers when you only have less than 7 million unemployed people to take their place without wrecking the economy?
Does everybody know in this bill the employer is NOT ALLOWED to use this new “VERIFICATION” system BEFORE you hire someone? YOU are FORBIDDEN from doing such. The Basic Pilot (SAVE) system is run the same way now. You can not pre-qualify or pre-validate anyone. You must HIRE FIRST, then FIRE them if the verification comes back bad.
Why is this….so the immigration lawyers guild can SUE YOU and keep them here for years on appeal.
Its not in this bill but a while back they put in some requirements to be an EOIR judge that hears these cases. Guess what the main requirement is to be one of these judges. You have to have at least 5 years of Immigration experience.
So guess who get to be these judges….this would be whoever is currently an immigration attorney, whom would also be very likely to be a PRO-Immigration supporter….?
AJ,
It has been a few days, and you have had an opportunity to rethink an earlier comment that you made. I would like to offer you a chance to recant that earlier comment.
You said that it would be okay if an illegal immigrant were using someone else’s SSN for employment purposes.
Do you still feel that way?
As someone who believes Americans shouldn’t have their identities stolen, their credit ratings trashed, their criminal records mixed up with someone else’s, their tax situation muddled, and their privacy rights infringed upon, I second this question.
What’s your answer?
Christoph,
My answer is the same – you fools left 1+ million violent criminals on our streets.
End of story. You folks are dangerous.
Apache,
You were clearly behind killing this bill and leaving murderers and rapists on our streets.
I know you haven’t changed your mind. You worry about SS IDs, not about real criminals…..
That was your choice. One you were proud to make. No reap your just rewards. Embrace the criminals you left on our streets to prey on our kids. They have you to thank for their continued stay.
You are proud of what you did? Right?
What a cop out, AJ. It was a simple question you didn’t answer.
And someone who uses someone else’s SSN is a “real” criminal.
Yes, both Apache, I, and the majority of your fellow Americans were in favour of killing this bill until a better one is tabled. Plus, enforcing existing law.
Ooops…it appears AJ that there is an underline/link stray close tag somewhere.
To respond:
I think you are fishing now. You said before that previous law did not allow for deportation “at all”…even for criminals. That’s why we have to pass the bill you support “now”..ie because that bill did. Obviously…you were mistaken (not that you’d want to actually admit that or anything). You also previously quoted penalties for non-registration (ie fines, etc)…and suggested that was the extent of our current law regarding illegals (ie..that they could not be deported under current law). I think you were even in agreement with Soothsayer at that point.. ie..being illegal under current law was only an administrative/fine offense for not registering….not something that would go to court or for which one could currently be deported. (which again..was why we needed to pass the bill you support)
Now you conceed that yes..well..we can deport people..but it just takes too long..and this bill makes it quicker?
What else would you like to clarify in your posts that you have not yet corrected?
Ooops…it appears AJ that there is an underline/link stray close tag somewhere.
To respond:
I think you are fishing now. You said before that previous law did not allow for deportation “at all”…even for criminals. That’s why we have to pass the bill you support “now”..ie because that bill did. Obviously…you were mistaken (not that you’d want to actually admit that or anything). You also previously quoted penalties for non-registration (ie fines, etc)…and suggested that was the extent of our current law regarding illegals (ie..that they could not be deported under current law). I think you were even in agreement with Soothsayer at that point.. ie..being illegal under current law was only an administrative/fine offense for not registering….not something that would go to court or for which one could currently be deported. (which again..was why we needed to pass the bill you support)
Now you conceed that yes..well..we can deport people..but it just takes too long..and this bill makes it quicker?
What else would you like to clarify in your posts that you have not yet corrected?
And just for the record if you actually read the current law I posted above (and sorry AJ that it was so lengthy…I just felt some context was important given the discussion), you’ll see that “criminal behavior” is only “one” area out of many that one can currently be deportable for. The current bill does not contain near as many provisions for deporting illegals as the current law does!
The fact that redtape was added by the Clinton Admin (J Reno) in prosecuting the current law…is an ENFORCMENT issue of the law!
The law itself is very clear. Read it.
If you want to play that way AJ..then think about this:
the people who left the murderers and criminals on the streets given that we have always had law to deport them…are the same stupid ass senators who are now pushing this bill and this propeganda that somehow we don’t have the authority to deport the bastards under current law!!!
The CURRENT law most certainly (read above) allows for the removale of violent criminals…and it says nothing about “red tape”. The fact that violent criminal illegals stil remain in this country to kill people….even though the law clearly defines they can be deported (without red tape)…is again..an enforcment issue. The current law…has no ambiguity in it. It says..clearly..such people “can” be dported. In fact..is says they “shall” be deported.
The fact that the Reno files…chose to not enforce the law…doesn’t change the fact that the law is what it is.
Nor does it somehow escape you from the fact that your law (no matter what it says) therefore may not be enforced.
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Friday that Washington is taking steps to address Mexican concerns the U.S. is not doing enough to stop illegal weapons from being smuggled across the border and into the hands of brutal drug gangs. . . . “The firepower we are seeing here has to do with a lack of control on the (U.S.) side of the border,” Patricio Patino, Mexico’s top anti-drug intelligence official, said last month.
You just cannot make this stuff up. We are at war with an enemy and the Bush administration is JUST now going to take steps to stop the spread of illegal weapons across the border. We better hope that Al Qaeda does not have Nukes cause if they do we are dead…they will just hire some Mexican gangs to bring them across.
Aj of course is an Islamophobiac, which is several degrees
worse than a hypochondriac inasmuch as it is Hispanics at 15% and with a nation bordering us, not Moslems at 3% with nations a half a globe away who constitute a challenge.