Jun 10 2007
Democrats Make Sense On Immigration
I disagree with Dem Governor Janet Napolitano on many issues. But on immigration she (and Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sen McCain and Sen Kyle) and I agree:
Opponents of the Senate immigration bill — those who really want to do nothing — merely yelled “amnesty” in place of reasoned opposition. They were — and are — just plain wrong. Don’t let them derail your efforts.
No one favors illegal immigration. But there are upwards of 12 million people illegally in this country — people who work, who have settled their families and who have raised their children here. For 20 years our country has done basically nothing to enforce the 1986 legislation against either the employers who hired illegal immigrants or those who crossed our borders illegally to work for them. Accordingly, our current system is, effectively, silent amnesty.
If we have no comprehensive immigration reform this year, and if we do not deal rigorously and openly with those already here, silent amnesty will continue. As a border-state governor who has dealt with immigration issues more than any other governor I know of, I am certain that continued inaction by Congress — silent amnesty — is the worst of all worlds.
While the far right got the initial message that to do something is worse than nothing, I doubt that myth will hold up to the light of day. But one thing is for sure. The Dems are sounding damn good on this issue. Not all dems. The far left and far right repulse me equally (which is why I end up near the center I guess). But clearly, on this issue, the center is the place to be. And we see the foolishness of the anti-immigration crowd wasting law enforcement resources on kids who win science fairs instead of terrorists and criminals:
· The Immigration Customs and Enforcement agency has sent several top-ranking students from Arizona State University to a camp in Eloy, Ariz., to await deportation to countries they have never lived in. The students have earned top marks, have never been in serious legal trouble and by all measures are primed to become productive members of our economy. This is a wise immigration policy?
· A team from an Arizona high school that has a high percentage of immigrant students went to Upstate New York in 2002 to compete in a science fair. After winning the top prize, the students crossed into Canada to see Niagara Falls — and were stopped at the border when they tried to return. After nine hours of interrogation they were allowed back into the United States, but a years-long legal battle ensued over whether they should be deported. We spent precious law enforcement resources on these high school students rather than on combating putative terrorist threats or, indeed, on infectious tuberculosis carriers. This is good homeland security?
And this is coherent national security – going after law abiding kids? Sure, whatever.
Addendum: Are the immigration hypochondriacs all upset that Dems are making reasoned sense and someone is pointing out how they left all these criminals in our midsts and prepetuated the silent amnesty of the status quo? I little reminder to our exaggerating and hyperventilating former conservative allies. The provisions this bill promises are more realistic than the wild claims those who support are for amnesty, open borders and immigrants being allowed to vote with instant citizenship. Accusing their former allies of being ‘traitors’ is par for the course for serial exaggerators on the right. No one who is pro-amnesty and open borders would support a bill that has heavy fines (up to $9K according to some calculations), strengthening the borders, and cutting off all paths to citizenship for guest workers. It is clear the far right hypes EVERYTHING on this issue. From their superior patriotism to the hurt feelings. So yes, after all the BS dems are much more credible.
The far right has no cedibility – they lost it all on this subject.
And btw back when the velvet hammer Tom Delay was using some questionable tactics to get legislation through the House we never heard the whining about how sneaky he was. Oh no, when it worked for them the right loved those tactics.
All this hypocritical grandstanding from people who call men like John Kyl, John McCain and George Bush traitors is so absurd. And what good has it done? If I believed half the crap I have read in some of the comment sections of the blogs I would never vote again. The hatred and distrust they show for their government is every bit as extreme as anything Ward Churchill said about little Eichmans dying on 9/11. It is every bit as paranoid as anything the Turthers ever came up with. So if I believed it, I would not be thinking about who I would vote for, I would leave the country.
Blame America First, courtesy the Right.
Ro5 does it again. Anyone not pure is a liberal at heart.
When R05 goes the name calling with no basis you know the far right is losing. No R05, we are not liberals because we disagree with you. We are intelligent, independent conservatives who do not need the far right to get things done. And, actually, right now would prefer to work with ‘sane’ conservatives instead of the dead enders.
LOL! Keep insulting the moderates R05! That helps our cause more than you can imagine.
Terrye, if the Republicans pandered to Buchanan, he would have garnered more votes. He didn’t and they don’t. No more than the left panders to someone who claims that Bush created 9-11. There are nuts out there, like David Duke, who no one really pays any mind to unless they, themselves, are lunatics.
Boy, is it easy to drive you lefties into a snit.
AJ, I realize that you take any questioning of your position as a personal attack. Perhaps you should not be so thinned skinned. Your grandfather should have told you that politics is a contact sport.
Did you miss Terrye’s post where Terrye admitted to being a libeal in a previous time? As to the name calling, AJ, I do believe you hold the record.
Retire:
You need to read the thread. It seems you don’t know what you are talking about re Buchanan. Keep up.
Speaking of liberals, I hear that the Democrat Dorgan is quite a hit with the righties. Now he is as liberal as Kennedy but they kiss his butt anyway because he came to their rescue and saved them from a fate worse than death. Of course he did it to suck up to the unions but who cares about that?
You whine about these illegals like they are all criminals and then go to the grocery store completely oblivious to the fact that a lot of the food you eat is on those shelves because some horrid hispanic help put it there. Look at Yuma in Arizona, who do you think does that work and what is more you benefit from it.
We spend less than any people in the world on food, even our poor people are fat. We have more freedom, more choices and more self determination than any people in the world. People are literally dying to get in here.
And I have to listen to the right accuse the president of betraying them. Accuse everyone of picking on them and fibbing to them blah blah blah when it is obvious, they have no idea how blessed they really are.
Do not get on the same side of this issue as some socialist like Dorgan and then call me a liberal because I will not kiss your butt. No, I am not a liberal, but then again I don’t owe you anything so you can believe what you like.
Oh my God, retire caught me.Once upon a time I was {gasp} liberal. I am so ashamed. That of course means I am a bad person and always have been doesn’t it? Maybe you Republicans should do some kind of testing. Are you or have you ever been a member of the Democratic Party.
Of course the truth is that once upon a time the same could have been said of Ronald Reagan but then he was not real honest to God true blue American conservative was he? And the same could be said for Jeanne Kirkpatrick as well. boo hiss.
When I was young and I was in college I was involved in the anti war movement along with a significant number of other people in my generation. If that means I am not good enough for your party retire then I suggest you get used to being a minority because a lot of other people will not be up to snuff either.
And you know something, this is AJ’s blog, coming here and insulting the man over and over again is kind of like going to someone’s house and insulting them.
Who raised you?
I did a post in regards to retire’s silly post about how the same Republicans who are pandering to Buchanan don’t really support him but it is gone.
And calling anyone who disagrees with you a leftie is funny. What would soothie think considering all the times he has called me a fascist.
extremes meet. there is not a dime’s worth of difference between Dorgan and Tancredo. One is a lefite and one is a rightie and they have gone so far either way, they met in a nasty little circle of hate.
And something else. I am ashamed of the fact that I was demonstrating against that war while John McCain was in a POW camp. But the fact that he suffered what he did was not enough to make socalled self righteous sanctimonious hardliners even show this man some respect. They have no shame. None at all.
And the fact that George Bush was not a Democrat, ever, nor was Kyl or McConnel or Graham, who also spent years in the military has not kept the morality police of the right from passing judgment on them.
I am sorry,but if I have to pick sides, I pick the same side they are on.
So BigLSUSportsFan announces that he’ll try to get somebody to join this conversation, and Retire05 uses this as an excuse to claim that BigLSUSportsFan doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about and therefore has no credibility.
You know, if I were as contemptuous and annoyed as Retire05 and his fellows seem to be at the rest of us here at AJ’s site, I would have gone and found another blog to hang out at by now.
Aitch, perhaps you should reread another thread to know what I was talking about. I was reponding to a claim made by biglsufan about the Texas GOP convention last year. Instead of providing the information biglsufan said he had, he instead says he will now ask someone else.
But far be it from me to provide you with any facts that might get in the way of your name calling toward someone who has never called you a name.
You, who march lockstep with AJ and his opinions, remind me of the protesters of Terrye’s college days; the whole point is to shout they opposing voices down until they are drowned out. Never, NEVER, address opposing views or ideas.
Now, Aitch, would you like to address the many questions I have posed about immigration reform or do you simple let others do the thinking for you? After all, it is soooo much easier.
1. The below quotes are from “THECENTERCANNOTHOLD” ; the greatest “hits” from this board in the past couple of days, the Delusional rantings of a Lunar Chiroptera fringe nutbag, who is Racist against not only Jews but Hispanics; who is also Proudly Anti-American and Pro-Jihadi. A worshipper of fellow fringe nutbags from both the left and the right; his “heroes” include: Ron Paul, William Lind, Juan Cole and Pat Buchanan:
“You’re going to lose both the Southwest and the Mideast.â€
“And yes I said “Surrender to Mexico Strata†because long before ragtag bans of Moslems will make his kids bow to Mecca, the Mexican revanchists will recapture the Southwest for “La Raza.â€
“I would remain silent, avoiding all protest, at the transmogrification of the Southwest,…â€
“Aj of course is an Islamophobiac, which is several degrees worse than a hypochondriac inasmuch as it is Hispanics at 15% and with a nation bordering us, not Moslems at 3% with nations a half a globe away who constitute a challenge.â€
“..as you are to the fifth column of Zionist neocons posing as conservatives who fool dupes like you to shed their children’s blood for Ashkenazi racist endeavours.â€
“…of the neocon quagmire beleiving in traitors and fools who…â€
“….is any Moslem anywhere in the world who wants Israel to give back the West Bank and Samaria to Palestinians and who resents American subsidization of Israel and it is any Moslem in the world who wants American bases and meddling, including CIA meddling in
Moslem countries elections and government,expurgated from Islamic nations…..â€
You can’t make this stuff up!
The fact that there are such brain-damaged individuals as he and “Soothsayer”, who actually “pass” as American “citizens”, is almost inconceiveable!
R05,
Nice try – but bringing up my family means nothing. You’re losing and you are helping it happen – as I orchestrate. Politics is hard ball – and you are in the amatuer leagues. Are you going to impress us with more personal attacks against fellow conservatives to illustrate how honorable and great you are?
LOL! Thin skinned? Now that is funny coming from someone like you who lashes out at everyone and anyone.
AJ, from a man with 3 times your intelligence, 5 times your experience, and 10 times your maturity and class. Steyn.
Terrye:
I’m not insisting on having everything my way. I’m insisting that the Congress not lie to us and live up to its promises.
And as far as strengthening this bill in the House, if God forbid it would get there in its current form, I’ve been told that Pelosi will only bring it to the floor for an up and down vote – no amendments to be permitted. And, she will only do that if at least 79 Republicans will vote for the bill as it comes out of the Senate. She does not want the Democrats to be painted as the party that owns the bill. So don’t hold your breath for the House to “fix” or “strengthen” any items contained in the bill’s language. That will not happen as things stand now.
AJ, I believe if you will check previous posts, it was YOU who referred to your grandfather. I have no way of knowing your family history unless you reveal it.
You seem to think that you are major league when it comes to politics but have no clue as to my occupation, history or experience. You might be surprised. But that information is inconsequential to the argument. And please, where did I ever say I was great?
I don’t lash out unless lashed at first and I think a brief review of previous posts would show that I have not only tried to present a different side of the issue but tried to do it without drawing blood, which is more than I can say for some of the AJ groupies.
It has become quite clear that anyone who holds a different opinion is going to be ridiculed here, not only by you, but by your following. That mindset is not only juvenile, but it gains nothing in the debate.
As one poster suggest I just leave this blog and go somewhere else, I am sure I can find a site where someone who tries intelligent debate is not insulted. But someone will replace me and when they do they should be told to “enter with caution.”
I leave you to your mutual love fest.
Just like Big Lizards pointed out what really stopped progress on the bill today Fred Barnes nails Harry Reid to the wall.
It matches what I saw watching the coverage streaming online that day.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118152105979330707.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
True enough, neither the White House nor most of the so-called “grand bargainers” who’d drafted the immigration bill were on Mr. Reid’s side when he called for restricting debate through cloture. They wanted a few more days to debate additional Republican amendments. They voted against cloture, and when it failed, Mr. Reid snatched the bill from the Senate floor.
Yet Mr. Reid was putting blame for defeat upon the one man — Mr. Bush — whose unwavering support for immigration reform had never before been questioned. Now the fate of immigration reform, the most important domestic legislation of the 2000s, rests solely in the hands of the Senate Majority Leader. Mr. Bush and Republicans can’t put the bill back on the Senate floor. Only Mr. Reid can.
More wisdom from Fred (Barnes not Thompson)
And, by the way, Democratic senators do have more amendments. After all, as Sen. Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico has pointed out, the bill was brought directly to the Senate floor, skipping the committee process in which a bill’s details are routinely worked out. Now the details can only be dealt with through floor amendments.
Mr. Reid bristled when Mr. McConnell told him the legislative successes of the newly Democratic Senate would be meager without immigration reform. Not only that, Mr. Reid risks alienating Hispanic and other immigration groups who are prepared to hold him, rather than Mr. Bush and Republicans, responsible if the immigration bill dies in the Senate.
Should it pass, however, Mr. Reid will get considerable credit. So will the president. Mr. Bush didn’t author the bill, but he has been a fervent backer of immigration reform since he was governor of Texas. He is the godfather of immigration reform.
Mr. Reid can blame the president all he wants. But the decision on resuming Senate deliberations — and in all likelihood passing the most significant immigration legislation since the 1960s — is his alone. Mr. Reid can be the hero who saved immigration reform. Or the goat who killed it.
Why full review and not legislating in a rush is warranted
http://tinyurl.com/2lzxw9
Currently, the time in which an immigration adjudicator is expected to approve or reject an application is six minutes. That’s not enough time to read the basic form, never mind any supporting documentation. Under political pressure to “bring the 12 million undocumented Americans out of the shadows,” the immigration bureaucracy will rubber-stamp gazillions of applications for open-ended probationary legal status within 24 hours and with no more supporting documentation than a utility bill or an affidavit from a friend. There’s never been a better time for Mullah Omar to apply for U.S. residency.
Remember the 1986 amnesty? Mahmoud abu Halima applied for it and went on to bomb the World Trade Center seven years later. His colleague, Mohammad Salameh, was rejected but carried on living here anyway. John Lee Malvo was detained and released by U.S. immigration in breach of its own procedures and re-emerged as the Washington sniper. The young Muslim men who availed themselves of the U.S. government’s “visa express” system for Saudi Arabia filled in joke applications – “Address in the United States: HOTEL, AMERICA” – that octogenarian snowbirds from Toronto who’ve been wintering at their Florida condos since 1953 wouldn’t try to get away with. The late Mohammed Atta received his flight-school student visa on March 11, 2002, six months to the day after famously flying his first and last commercial airliner.
All the above passed through the legal immigration system. Whether they were detained, rejected, approved or posthumously approved, in the end it made no difference. Because U.S. immigration had no real idea who these men were.
” You whine about these illegals like they are all criminals”
Strawman. Illegals (and legal immigrant Hispanics) are however, substantially more criminal than white-bread Americans. (Roughly three times as criminal, as measured by incarceration statistics) The Hispanic incarceration rate is roughly).
This means that substantially more Americans get murdered, raped and robbed each year because of lax immigration policy. That a majority of illegals are law-abiding (except for immigration law of course) is largely irrelevant – the marginal effect is what matters in the end.
“No one who is pro-amnesty and open borders would support a bill that has heavy fines (up to $9K according to some calculations), strengthening the borders, and cutting off all paths to citizenship for guest workers.”
Yes, they would, if they had good reason to believe the enforcement provisions would never materialize. You know, kinda like the last time a “grand immigration bargain” was struck.
As for the fines, you should be perfectly aware of the fact that no fine whatsoever is required to attain a PZV, offering legal status in the US. Fines only apply for those who want a PV or citizenship.