Jun 12 2007
America Speaks – Two Thirds Support “Amnesty”
The far right gambled and lost. Two thirds of Americans, Republicans as well, support legalizing the 12 million illegal aliens here now after they pay their debt to society by way of fines and back taxes:
A strong majority of Americans — including nearly two-thirds of Republicans — favors allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens if they pay fines, learn English and meet other requirements, a new Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.
…
Although the pathway to citizenship was one of the most controversial provisions of the Senate bill, the poll found the idea was backed by 63% of those surveyed — even by 58% of those who identified themselves as conservatives and 65% of Republicans.
That is a lot of traitors to the far right. No wonder we see so much backpedaling on the talk shows and elsewhere. With so many treasonous, open border, alien lovers out there, the GOP better rethink its self destructive strategy. And soon.
Addendum: In a complete blow to the “amnesty” hypochondriacs, their numbers are now around 1 in 5:
Only 23 percent of adults surveyed opposed allowing immigrants to become legal.
Some majority. The immigration hypochondriacs are outnumbered 4-1. So much for representing America. I expect them to be as proud of America in defeat as they were in their mythical victory over Amnesty. Anyone aligned with Lou Dobbs needs their views examined.
Update: The message is getting out that reform is better than nothing, and those getting the blame for the nothing are the far right GOP:
In an ill-advised game of chicken, Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) had warned members that unless they voted to limit debate to 30 more hours, he’d pull the bill from the floor. They didn’t and he did. That was good news only for the handful of hard-liners who’d rather live with the current dysfunctional immigration system than compromise on a solution. We like to think most senators — like most Americans — want this problem solved. And in fact, now both parties are working to revive the bill, with Reid agreeing to resume debate if Republican leaders can bring their recalcitrant members to heel.
…
The immigration bill is a fragile bargain struck during two months of closed-door negotiations between the White House and leaders from both parties. Everyone at the table found parts of it bitterly distasteful, but they emerged with a bill that would genuinely accomplish things. It offers more border security, more workplace enforcement, more legal workers to address the nation’s labor shortage and a realistic plan to legalize the 12 million undocumented workers who already live here.
More press like this and things might actually begin moving again.
….no pun intended.
He knows what he left out. That was not accidental. He’s been doing that since the beginning of this debate.
I know Apache. That’s why they also needed to shut the discussion on the bill down too. They are hoping they can let this cool off and come back to it at a different angle with better results. I can tell you, at least for now…(who knows about down the road), their current polling hasn’t been reassuring for them…particularly with elections on the horizon. If public opinion on this issue doesn’t change….I suspect that we’ll see the DNC and RNC start to separate more and to try and lead on who’s going to be tougher on immigration issues.
I think as a result of that, we may get a stronger bill. If AJ is right (and he certainly is not..at this point…but who knows later on), public opinon will start to shift dramatically at somepoint to change those statistics. I certainly don’t see that yet….but it’s obvious that others (including AJ) know this as well..hence ..trying to show that a “shift” has occured…by repacking previous results. Past results, btw, that do not support this bill. Who knows down the road?
Your arrogance is over the top, A.J.
Your interpretation of the facts is certainly not the only one and you insult those who, in good faith, disagree with you, but are generally on your side.
It’s offensive.
cheer up mates. this letter was handed to the president today when he met the repub senators. they have been reading our comments here and at other sites—SECURITY FIRST–all the rest is sputum.
Dear Mr. President:
Although the Senate’s effort to reform our nation’s immigration laws through the Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007 is stalled, illegal immigration remains our nation’s number one domestic issue. We therefore believe it is incumbent upon us and our colleagues to tackle this issue and not leave this problem for future generations to solve.
As we travel around Georgia and continue to hear from our constituents, the message from a majority of Georgians is that they have no trust that the United States Government will enforce the laws contained in this new legislation and secure the border first. This lack of trust is rooted in the mistakes made in 1986 and the continued chaos surrounding our immigration laws. Understandably, the lack of credibility the federal government has on this issue gives merit to the skepticism of many about future immigration reform.
We believe the way to build greater support for immigration reform in the United States Senate and among the American public is to regain the trust in the ability of the federal government to responsibly administer immigration programs and enforce immigration laws. There is bipartisan agreement that we need to secure our borders first, and we believe this approach will serve as a platform towards addressing the other issues surrounding immigration reform.
To that end, we believe that you and your administration could alleviate many of the fears of our constituents by calling for an emergency supplemental bill to fully fund the border and interior security initiatives contained in legislation currently pending in the Senate, as well as any outstanding existing authorizations. Such a move would show your commitment to securing the border first and to stopping the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs into our nation. It will also work towards restoring the credibility of the federal government on this critical issue.
We urge you to carefully consider this request, and thank you for the opportunity to express the views of the people of Georgia on this matter.
Sincerely,
Saxby Chambliss Johnny Isakson
United States Senator United States Senator
DaleInAtlanta gets my nomination for Asshole of the Day.
I said in a post on another thread that if a blogger and the commenters who agreed with him filled me with as much annoyance and contempt as we seem to have done with the posters telling AJ he’s wrong, foolish, and way out of line, then I would have moved on to more pleasant pastures. But apparently DaleInAtlanta and his fellow ranters have gone far enough toward monopolizing these threads that he thinks HE moderates the board, is qualified to warn long-time posters against “sticking their noses into something they don’t know anything about,” and can TELL other posters to leave.
I guess AJ has a point about the far right getting wilder and wilder, if DaleInAtlanta is any indication. Next he’ll be telling Roonent1 “congratulations, you’ve just been banned.”
Aitch:
I second the nomination.
The truth most Americans know that when these people rant about “just enforcing the laws” they are just blowing off and we see the same kind of arrogant in your face stuff right here. They have no respect for the opinions of others.
AJ does run the site, it is like walking into someone’s home and calling him names, it is rude and stupid.
There is an old saying, beware your heart’s desire for surely you will get it.
If these guys kill the bill, then they will be the ones responsible for what is left. If they can not just enforce the laws then it will be their stupidity at fault for claiming they could. If they can not get the wall built in a few months then they will be the liars and morons and frauds living in a fantasy world. If they can not magically remove 12 million illegals from our midst without mass deportation or additional funds or any fuss whatsoever because they will all just “self deport” then I guess we can say they are the ones who can not face reality.
So far all they have had to do is call other people names and act like bad children. They have not actually had to make their silly little claims pan out.
So, if all these readers are so offended by AJ, imagine how he must feel about them.
I saw this at Breitbart , it seems the magic wand waving is not enough. The Bushbashers on the right want 15 billion in emergency funds. And here I thought all they had to do was enforce the laws. How do I know I can trust them with that 15 billion? After all, they are the government. And we know how bad and evil our own government is.
And by the way, there have been polls by gallup, cnn, ap, and even rasmussen that stated the majority of Americans support both guest worker programs and regularization of illlegals. And anyone who says those polls are not out are being over the top and dishonest themselves.
Polling data is not always reliable when it comes to moving legislation – on either side. I remember that some one from Pew admitted a few years after McCain-Feingold was passed that they had manipulated the data to get the legislation moved forward even to the point of creating a website purported to be manned by supporters of the bill because they thought the bill was the right way to go since it gave the press more leverage – so they thought.
I have done polling and you can create an incredible advantage for your own agenda in the way you ask a question, the series of questions and the interpretation of the data. That’s why newspapers use polls to drive stories today. I’m not saying this is the case here, but you need to know the agenda of the people sponsoring the poll before you take it as the gospel of fact.
So Jacqui,
Rassmussen’s numbers (being an opponent) are as suspect? I will give you a hint: Rassmussen is bucking all other polls. I doubt they are all rigged and Rasmussen’s are the lone accurate picture.
Patrick,
That letter is the last gasp of the minority. We now know the 9-10 GOP senators who refuse anything giving legal status the long time illegals. What they have done is raised their hands and said ‘count me out’ of any compromise. Now they are out. The ones left can now negotiated with Bush and the Dems.
I take this as really good news. 10 obstructionists have come forward and taken themselves out of the equation.
I’m astounded at how the level of debate on this issue has deterioriated among good people who normally agree with each other on most other issues. You all are so firmly entrenched in your little ideological foxholes that you’ve totally lost sight of the issue. Everyone’s quoting polls that seem to support his or her point of view with the same polls often being used to support both points of view depending on how much of the poll you quote. Terrye’s last paragraph is a good example of that:
And by the way, there have been polls by gallup, cnn, ap, and even rasmussen that stated the majority of Americans support both guest worker programs and regularization of illlegals. And anyone who says those polls are not out are being over the top and dishonest themselves.
I am certainly one of that majority who supports a guest worker program, but, as DC notes:
It wasn’t amnesty or guest-worker programs or paths to citizenship that doomed the bill. Each of those provisions made it more difficult for some segments of the population to accept. However, most voters were willing to accept them as part of a true compromise that accomplished the primary goal of reducing illegal immigration.
I’m old enough to remember the immigration bills from 1965 and 1986. As far as I’m concerned, I’ve already been fooled twice, which is one over my limit.
I applaud the overall goals behind this legislation, but I have nearly ZERO confidence that, if passed as it’s currently structured, the Federal Government has either the desire or ability to enforce any of the meaningful portions of the bill. As someone pointed out earlier this week (I think it was Rich Lowrey) men with crude tools built the Hoover Dam and the Empire State Building in less time than it’s going to take to build the first 100 miles of border fence.
Oh, and Terrye,
AJ does run the site, it is like walking into someone’s home and calling him names, it is rude and stupid.
This is a 2-way street. It’s also rude to invite someone into your home and then call them names. Name-calling is stupid and imature no matter who doing it, and most of the people who post here are better than that, or at least I thought so. Calling those with whom you disagree names or questioning someone’s sanity or integrity are sure signs that you’ve already lost the argument.
Retired Spook,
\”Immigration Hypochondriac\” is a label to describe a group of people who are over reacting to the issue. The funny thing is I never once put anyone INTO that group. They mentally joined themselves. And this is a political blog. So when I take up a cause I take it up to win. But more importantly, the far right – which is full of claims of \’traitor\’ and \’unamerican\’ and being for \’amnesty\’ was the group which declared war on moderate conservatives. They set the tone – I just don\’t need to hyperventilate to enjoin the battle.
I think all the whining about \’name calling\’ is pathetic. No one was individually invited here, nor are they given some special shield from my sharp wit and elbows if they decide to challenge my views. The fact is I have used the far right\’s own tactics in a much more civil and respectful way. They call us traitors, I label them as hypochondriacs. They say they are for enforcement, I note how they pretend the status quo is good enough.
The far right had slogans which meant nothing. And they used to have allies in the conservative coalition. They dumped their allies to bath in their hate of illegal aliens. The rest of us have better things to do – much more constructive things to do.
Just remember, this is the great American civil process that gave the right their grand victory last week! We are in that same process still. Chipping away at credibility – which is what the zero sum game is all about.
RS,
Because you have no confidence they will act is not as reason not to try. And it is DEFINITELY not a reason to call those who believe the bill can work and will be tried ‘traitors’.
Sorry, but the far right is against the illegal aliens paying fines and becoming legal. Just because so who align with them are not that bad doesn’t mean that is at the core of the resistance in the GOP. If the labels don’t apply to you – don’t assume them to be about you.
AJ, admittedly, there are some on the far right that are against illegals paying a fine and becoming legal. I happen to think they’re a miniscule minority. I don’t have the sense that there are any who comment on this blog. There are, however, a large number who are simply skeptical that any fines will ever be collected period.
You and I are not in total disagreement on this issue, and I never assumed ANY labels applied to me. I’ve commented very little on this issue because, by virtue of where I live and what I do for a living, I’m largely isolated from the really negative aspects of illegal immigration, but I’ll be disappointed if some kind of meaningful reform doesn’t come out of this effort. I do agree, however, with the letter from the Georgia Senators that Patrick posted. At this point, some show of good faith on the part of the administration with regard to enforcement would go a long way toward getting more people on board. Why are you so receptive to believing someone who’s lied to you multiple times simply because their current sales package contains what you view as a good compromise on the issue? Your usual critical analysis on other topics like embryonic stem cells and global warming is MIA on this issue.
RS,
You have no reason except pessimism to not act. It is not a good enough reason. The administration has shown plenty of good faith and has defended a lot of the enforcement aspects of this.
Actually, why not you pessimists show some good faith and get behind the bill and push to have it done instead of complaining nothing will ever work.
I don’t think you will because I honestly don’t think that is the reason you are against the bill. And even if I am wrong about you most of the obstructionists keep shifting their excuse for opposition because deep down they want the illegals out. Whether they are kidding themselves or not doesn’t matter. That ain’t going to happen.
So pass the bill now. Then see if they do more of the same.
AJ,
I take issue with your characterization of your characterization of those of us who have issues with the bill, in its present form. You can read your own words to me or continue to pretend you didn’t lump us all into the same category by implication if not actual wording. I won’t bore the board with a repeat of your comments to me, but if you are honest with yourself you will admit you blasted anyone and everyone who didn’t full-out support the bill.
AJ, I’m beginning to see why Dale, Retire05, Bikerken, DC, Apache and all the others are so frustrated with this debate. Just like you, I could be wrong, but I don’t see anyone who posts here declaring that, because they’re pessimistic, we should do nothing.
The administration has shown plenty of good faith
I must have missed that. Could you give some examples?
and has defended a lot of the enforcement aspects of this.
I’d agree with that statement, but defending the wording of the bill and actually doing the, you know, “enforcing”, are two completely different things.
Actually, why not you pessimists show some good faith
I can only speak for myself, but I’ve shown “good faith” for over 40 years. Don’t have much to show for it either, so my “good faith” reservoir is getting a little low.
instead of complaining nothing will ever work.
Your words, not mine, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to read all the exceptions and loopholes in the bill to see that “not working” is built into the legislation.
I don’t think you will because I honestly don’t think that is the reason you are against the bill.
As little as I’ve commented on this issue, you’d have to be clairvoyant to make a statement like that. Besides which, I’m not even “against” the bill. I thought substantial progress was being made at improving it when Reid tabled it, which was probably one of the main reasons he tabled it.
And even if I am wrong about you (YOU ARE) most of the obstructionists keep shifting their excuse for opposition because deep down they want the illegals out.
Like I said before, there is a small minority who probably do feel that way. I don’t know anyone who thinks that way, and I can’t think of anyone who comments on your blog who thinks that way with the exception of Ken/TheCenterCannotHold. BTW, anyone else besides me think they are the same person?
So pass the bill now. Then see if they do more of the same.
And, if they do, then what?
No Sue,
I blasted the immigration hypochondriacs. And if you felt that was you then what can I say?
But I want the bill passed and, if not, those who obstruct to pay a political price in credibility so the next time comes around it gets closer to passage.
Welcome to the politics the far right invoked with their war on Bush and moderates. Do I need to point out RINOs have horns and know how to use them?
If anything, the impudent talking heads will learn manners and respect towards any future allies they can muster up. And if they want moderates back, they will start taking real actions to rebuild those bridges they burned.
And complaining we were too rough on the far right is not building a bridge.
RS,
This is my last attempt. I will prove once again the far right is far wrong. And when you hem and haw and cannot yet muster support we will all know the truth.
The lack of enforcement was not your real concern all along. It was just another ploy.
Find my comments too harsh? LOL! Now you understand why I found the right has no credibility any more. Facts do not move them. There is no reason to try and mend anything. It is time to win….