Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
You think that’s hateful, AJ? I found a comment on Lucianne over the weekend that said that any politician who supported the bill getting bounced around in the Senate right now deserved to — well, here is the comment in full:
What the hell is the matter with these people? I realize people think the consequences of this bill are just awful, but come on.
Oh, and I’d like to summarize one of AJ’s big points from this post, before it gets lost in the inevitable back-and-forth between Apache, DaleInAtlanta, ForEnforcement, Retire05, BikerKen, and SteveVVS:
We don’t have any sure way to tell how many illegals we have in America. If this is true, then we also wouldn’t have any sure way to measure the effectiveness of any wall that we erect; we’d still be guessing.
(The only other way you’d be able to measure the effectiveness of the wall is if we’ve been able to tell how many illegals are crossing the border per day or per week or per month now. The only way to be able to do that is to have people all along the border keeping track of these numbers, and one of the problems I keep hearing that we have is that we don’t have NEARLY enough people to track movement across the border.)
(Now watch, I’ll get challenged on the particulars of THIS BILL IN THE SENATE and told I’m not qualified to participate in this conversation if I haven’t read the bill.)
Hey AJ, at least you know ONE of us is actually reading your posts. 😀
I don’t where all the “far right” characterization comes from. Opposition to this bill extends way beyond any right fringe.
It’s the Far Right pitted against White Guilt.
On this one I stand with Dale in Atlanta.
Take come consolation that this same mind-set treated Ronald Reagan the same way over disarmament in Europe. They treated him like dirt, and then went after Nancy. Now he is worshiped as their “god”. Twenty years from now they will be trying to destroy another Republican POTUS and worshiping GWB.
The Pink Flamingo
SJ Reidhead
It’s the Far Right pitted against White Guilt.
On this one I stand with Dale in Atlanta.
Left by thecentercannothold on June 18th, 2007
First of all, I don’t want to stand with YOU, on ANYTHING!
If you think you and I, have ANYTHING in common, you’re hitting the Bong pipe way too early in the day, and need to put it down, and back away slowly, …now!
In all my many posts on the topic, I may have made ONE comment, about the Left being opposed to this bill, because of Liberalism and “white guilt”; but that is an over-simplification, the way you phrase it.
Besides, I’m not opposed to the Bill; I’ve tried to say that, in a THOUSAND ways, and neither AJ nor “Aitch” nor Blu, will LISTEN!
I’m also NOT opposed, to a “Guest Worker” program; and by the way, neither is Bikerken and LE and Apache and R05 and Stevevys etc., etc., etc.
The only thing we have EVER SAID, again, Terrye, and AJ, and Aitch, and Blu, WON’T LISTEN; is that we’re fairly certain, from actually reading the Bill, that we’re being Shafted, with another Kennedyesque Immigration Bill, that come down the pike every 21 years (65, 86, 07), and which promises to be the END to the Immigration BS, and each time, the corrupt leading the blind (Kennedy leading the Republicans) sign on, an it never solves the problem, it just makes it Worse!
Because, IF Kennedy is supporting, it’s written in a way, to guaranteed, be bad for America, and good for the Leftists!
So, either there are no enforcement provisions, or no money funded, or so many loopholes, as to make it basically a piece of Swiss Cheese.
And, that is in fact, the case with this Bill; as WE’VE ALL tried to point out, time, and time, and time again, to AJ, and Terrye, and Blu, and Aitch.
And, AGAIN, YOU WON’T LISTEN, and you’ll call us names, and whine, and cry, and predict doom and gloom for the Republican party, because we are not “buying off” Hispanic Voters; and it is completely and thorougly Bogus “analysis”, bordering now, on a Mania for AJ, and one that is disingenuous, dishonest, and frankly, one that is not worthy of AJ!
But, it won’t do any good, because he’s just done it again, with THIS post; misrepresented FACTS, spun his favorite, bogus refrains, and now, AJ is bordering on a caricature of an “analyst” with this post, and a demagogue!
It’s sad, really….
DaleinAtlanta
“So, either there are no enforcement provisions, or no money funded, or so many loopholes, as to make it basically a piece of Swiss Cheese.”
I can see how the workplace verfication system and ID is not labeled enforcement. Also, as the news a s indicated the Adminsitration and the Senators are in agreement of doing a 4.1 billion dollar emergency supplemental for border enforcement.Earnest money as it were for those that have misgivings about the Govt.
I am sure conservatives in the house might try to blueslip that TOOO.
“And, AGAIN, YOU WON’T LISTEN, and you’ll call us names, and whine, and cry, and predict doom and gloom for the Republican party, because we are not “buying off†Hispanic Voters; and it is completely and thorougly Bogus “analysisâ€, bordering now, on a Mania for AJ, and one that is disingenuous, dishonest, and frankly, one that is not worthy of AJ!”
Go read the excellent link that AJ posted in this piece about GOP losing Hispanic support. You will find that hispanics are for very tough sanctions
By the way “buying off hispanics” is a term we should avoid. I don’t like the terms “buying off the Religious right” or “buying off business interest either”. Itis right up there with the word “pandering”. It is not “buying off” to listen to concerns of people and especially those that we are allied with. To view it that way is not too see these people as partners in a grand Coalition but as only tools and not very nice ones at that.
I toild you the center cannot hold and you will stand with
Paul Tancredo Duke and Buchanan on immigration or you will go under with the white guilters.
By the way, I’m hedging my bets. My money when it comes to
large numbers of white people not laden with guilt for their past
sins and ready to do battle for world hegemony is riding on the
Russians.
I told you the center cannot hold—now you’re getting it– and you will stand with Paul Tancredo Duke and Buchanan on immigration or you will go under with the white guilters.
By the way, I’m hedging my bets. My money when it comes to
large numbers of white people not laden with guilt for their past
sins and ready to do battle for world hegemony is riding on the
Russians.
By the way “buying off hispanics†is a term we should avoid. I don’t like the terms “buying off the Religious right†or “buying off business interest eitherâ€. Itis right up there with the word “panderingâ€. It is not “buying off†to listen to concerns of people and especially those that we are allied with. To view it that way is not too see these people as partners in a grand Coalition but as only tools and not very nice ones at that.
Left by biglsusportsfan on June 18th, 2007
Big: truth hurts, and as you know, you can put that lipstick on a pig, hell, put it in a cocktail dress and diamonds, take it out to dinner at Emerils, take it dancing, wine, dine, and limo it home, but at the end of the day, it IS still a pig! And when you undress it, and crawl into bed with it, only two things happen then: a) you get dirty; b) the pig enjoys it!
So far, AJ’s ONLY argument, for accepting this flawed piece of legistlation, AS IS, with no Improvments, with no dissent, with no discussion, with questioning, because that IS what he’s been telling us to do, from the the very begining, is to pander to the Hispanic community for Republican votes!
That’s HIS argument, not mine; it’s the ONLY justification, he’s been able to give, for over a month, on this issue!
Sorry if the truth hurts; but it is the truth!
Dale you said
“Big: truth hurts, and as you know, you can put that lipstick on a pig, hell, put it in a cocktail dress and diamonds, take it out to dinner at Emerils, take it dancing, wine, dine, and limo it home, but at the end of the day, it IS still a pig! And when you undress it, and crawl into bed with it, only two things happen then: a) you get dirty; b) the pig enjoys it!”
Again the article is important
“Polls show that Hispanic voters will support any preconditions to legal immigration, including forcing illegal immigrants to return to their native countries for a time, so long as a path to citizenship is created. Hispanics tend to doubt the motives of those who argue for enforcement-only policies and, as a result, believe overwhelmingly that Democrats are more sensitive to their needs than Republicans.
Still, they are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to candidates who propose solutions to the immigration impasse, even if the path to citizenship is difficult. Hence, even while enforcement-only advocates such as Rep. J.D. Hayworth and Randy Graf were losing GOP congressional seats to Democrats, Hispanics gave 41 percent of their votes to Kyl, who supports strong border enforcement but also an ultimate path to citizenship.”
and
“Get the immigration issue behind. Registered Hispanic voters often take conservative positions on immigration issues. In 2004, 47 percent supported Proposition 200, which required proof of citizenship for government benefits. Last year, 48 percent voted to make English the official language. But both substance and rhetoric on immigration issues matter to Hispanic voters”
Read that carefully. This doesnt sound like a group that wants to be pandered too. It sounds like a group that shares many of the concerns and is willing to accept a lot
If panderig is being done then perhaps people in order to find out who that is should go look in the mirror
Some are still ignoring the reality of history discussed here
Fifty three years ago President Eisenhower faced the same flood of illegal immigrants and he solved the problem in a very short time by enforcing the existing laws. What a novel idea – enforce the law! By enforcing the law, the flood of illegal immigrants over the border ceased and many of the illegal immigrants began to self-deport. President Eisenhower didn’t need the provisions in new improved immigration law, so why do our current politicians think we need a new law?
First, after the Eisenhower administration, the commitment to uphold the immigration laws diminished. Second, by definition, politicians create laws. Politicians believe it is their duty to create laws even if they aren’t needed. So the politicians decided they needed to write new immigration laws, and we got the 1965 immigration law. Then of course we got the 1986 immigration amnesty law. So rather that demand that the administrative branch enforce the existing laws, the legislative branch writes new laws.
more later
It has been reported that there are still 15,000 applications for amnesty from the 1986 immigration amnesty legislation. It is understood that screening applicants for residency or citizenship is a time consuming process – but 20 years is ridiculous. So what makes any Senator think that the government can adequately screen 12 million illegal immigrants in one day when the State Department can’t screen passport applications for U.S. citizens or 1986 amnesty applications in a timely manner?
Oh BTW Rasmussen has the approval rating for bringing bill back up for a second try at 20% now down from 23% the last time they tried.
Merlin,
History shows that ,while the 198o’s real amnesty bill did not work and left too much to be done piecemeal later (like todays hypochondriacs want), the flood of immigrants did not destroy this country or tank it. The reason we can absorb these people in the work force is because we need that big of a work force. Duh! We are at full employment right now and we have absorbed those workers.
What is more, most of our government budgets are in the black AND COULD BE CUT MORE! So the so called economic drain never happened in those two decades of ‘open borders’.
And history shows the US did not turn into a 3rd world country and we are still Americans. History is clear. The Chicken Littles are making up or exaggerating the problem. They are failing to adjust to this wave of immigrants like so many failed before them. And they were always a minority and always wrong.
That post is about the one single biggest crock of crap I have ever read on your blog site.
Merlin,
Lots of wonderful ideas started out unpopular. The Chicken Littles cannot stop progress. So what if it is 23%. If it passes Congress then it is the law. Fortunately we do not govern by polls.
At least leaders don’t. Mobs follow polls.
Biglsu: I don’t think you’re listening to what I’m saying.
I agree with you on the polls saying that Hispanics don’t want to pandered too; at least the LEGAL ones living here in the US; and the ones who have assimiliated, etc.
I’d be curious to see those same polls, however, for the ILLEGALS, but that’s a different issue.
What I’m saying is, that it is NOT the “Hispanics” that want to be pandered too; I’m saying that it is AJ, and his supporters, who are saying that their major support for this bill, is predicated upon THEIR desire to “pander” to the Hispanics for “Republican” votes!
And besides, I’ve already posted very good information, that refutes AJ’s contention, that voting and passing for this bill, will actually PRODUCE more “Republican” votes among the ILLEGALS suddenly becoming “Legal”; again, I’m not talking about the Legals!
AJ: actually, it’s 20% now, not 23%, and wasn’t it just you, a couple days ago, trying to spin some poll numbers that actually showed that people were Supporting what you were writing?
Now, all of sudden, because this Poll disagrees with your position, “poll numbers don’t matter”??
How does that 180 on poll results occur in a 3 – 4 day span?
AJ
You have your position and you are welcome to it.
I can quote and link studies from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, The Census Bureau and the Bureau of Prisons plus many other federal agencies.
I would not matter, since even if I posted them I doubt minds would be influenced.
Suffice it to say that if you look you well see well documented trends that just don’t get the coverage.
The provisions of this bill do not address the underlying issues that are creating the trends.
It is still not a given that a revived bill will pass the Senate.
But if it does survive the process in some manner, there will at least some data as to the effectiveness due to early reports just about in time for the next election cycle.
WOW! 41% of Hispanics voted for Kyl. It seems biglsufan cannot do math any better than Terrye. This means that 59% voted against Kyl. And the last time I checked, it takes a majority to win. But never mind a little thing like a fact to get in the way of someone who wants to prove a point. And don’t consider that the Pew Hispanic Research Center (their names tells you all you need to know about what they do) says that 49% of ALL Hispanics vote Democrat compared to 20% Republican.
If you think pandering to the citizens that should be taken care of by President Calderon is going to garner votes for Republicans, you are smoking something you probably should be worried about being busted for. Low income people ALWAYS vote for the candidate that promises the most free stuff and illegals from Latino socialist or semi-socialist nations will not change their opinions about socialism just because we let them stay in our nation after they have broken the law.
Biglsufan want to throw out the $4.4 billion plan as saying “ah ha, see, we are finally serious about security the border”. Never mind that money is tied to the fines that are to be paid by the illegals (a catagory eliminated by the Shamnesy Bill) when they apply for citizenship. If this administration was serious about securing the border, he would have done it six years ago on September 12, 2001. But he didn’t and now he is trying to make some moves (like moonwalking) so that he looks tough on enforcement.
AJ wants to try to tell us that we “immigration hypochondriacs” want to leave hard core criminals run lose. Perhaps he would like to tell us why so many of those people were NOT deported when they were released from prison. Perhaps he would like to tell us whose policy that was to turn them back into society. But I doubt it.
And no, biglsufan, we are not “buying off” anyone. What this bill does is sell the most precious thing on earth, American citizenship.
Dale, your words are falling on deaf ears. We are dealing with the three monkeys here when it comes to this bill; see no evil, speak no evil and hear no evil. But some of us were wise enough to read the bill. We know the truth.
Why was this bill plotted and planned in secret in the back rooms of the Senate? Because even Lindsey Graham know that sunlight is the best disinfectant and this germ of a bill could not hold up to the sunlight of public scrutiny.