Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
It is not pandering to treat people like human beings. Does the Right want to lose the hispanic vote the way they did the black vote? Who did that benefit? Other than people like Al Sharpton and Hillary Clinton that is.
I am not an hispanic and I have been offended by some of the things I have heard people on the right say. I honestly do not understand why people think it is necessary to treat an entire group of people like garbage just because their ethnic background is hispanic.
When I was a kid growing up in Oklahoma I can remember people treating Indians like this, calling them black rats. Who is proud of that today?
I only hope a compromise can be reached and some agreement can be met. If not this will go on with hardliners sounding more like Hugo Chavez or Michael Moore with every passing day. I do not want to be associated with the kind of people who make comments like those AJ cited.
I got a letter from my representative Brad Ellsworth today on this subject. He is the Democrat who beat the hardliner Hostettler in the 8th District Indiana. And it was not the fault of Iraq either, Hostettler was not a strong supporter of the war, he was a paleo.
I also wrote Bayh and Lugar but have not heard back from them yet.
This is part of what Ellsworth says:
To help solve this complex problem, I recently introduced HR 1951, the Legal Employee Verification Act. …..The Legal Employee Verification Act creates a new mandatory system where employers can accurately and efficiently check the legal status of a new employee through a national database, and it strengthens penalties for those who try to cheat the system…….
Now Ellsworth has also said he does not like amnesty, after all he ran as a blue dog, a conservative Democrat. The problem is that he does not say what he will do instead. He just says he does not want amnesty and he defines amnesty as any sort of program that gives people rights they did not have the day before.
Which of course makes no sense.
But one thing I am beginning to think is that some people have talked themselves into a corner on this. They feel opposed to any sort of amnesty for a number of reasons, among them being political, moral and ethical. However, there are those of us who do not consider paying a fine to be amnesty. These folks think that anything short of deportation is amnesty, but they say they have no plans to deport 12 million people.
Another Catch 22. However, at least Ellsworth is admitting that our current enforcement laws are not adequate.
Ro5,
What a lunatic you are!
“If you think pandering to the citizens that should be taken care of by President Calderon is going to garner votes for Republicans, you are smoking something you probably should be worried about being busted for. “
Dude – these are American Citizens. This is nativism at its most obvious and clear. They are FELLOW Americans, not Mexicans anymore. Face it, you don’t like hispanics.
Merlin,
your not well documented trends do not change reality. The country did not implode from the bad bill in the 1980’s and won’t from this much better bill in 2007.
Forget, there are not trends that show the sky is falling!
LOL
Dale,
Poll numbers matter – but they do not convey ‘correctness’ upon the topic. Most people at one time supported slavery. A popular, if incorrect position. Do not rely on the mob view to morally validate or technically validate the GOP’s self destruction!
That is all I am saying. Polls do not make the right answer. They reflect the current thinking – not whether it is right or not.
BTW, the current thinking in the polls is the Dems are better than the Reps on all major issues. I assume you now bow down to the polls on that conclusion as well?
Too easy.
So now we know, Senator Harry (never met a land deal he didn’t like) Reid and AJ thinks that all the citizens of Mexico, or any other nation, who manage to swim the Rio Grande are AMERICAN CITIZENS.
Never mind they have not relinguished their citizenship to their native lands, the are AMERICAN CITIZENS.
And now being a nativist (caring about your own citizens before you care about the citizens of another nation) is a bad thing. Gee, AJ, why don’t you just call us “isolationist bigots”? Or had you not thought of that one yet?
Do I care more about Americans than I do the French, Germans, Irish or Saudis? Damn straight I do and if you don’t, shame on you.
Perhaps AJ, who likes to quote other bloggers when he thinks it suits his agenda, would like to read the blog of someone who is married to a naturalized American and cared enough to actually read the bill before he gave it his support.
http://www.macsmind.com/wordpress/2007/06/18/blogs-vs-bush-on-the-bill
Back when Eisenhower was president we had the Bracero program {much like a guest worker program}and there was no where near the population in the southwest or even the water to support the kind of population we see now. That was a half century ago, and by the way there was no wall either. But tell the hardliners that they don’t need a wall because Ike did not have one and somehow magically dealt with the problem and see what kind of reaction you get. Besides, it is obvious that whatever Eisenhower did, it did not stick.
And this stuff about just enforcing the laws is getting old. How are you going to do that?
The laws were adequate 50 years ago, but they are not now. For the life of me I don’t know where people who say that think we are going to get the people and resources to just enforce the laws ……and I do not know if they think all the border agents and everyone else involved is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to tell them to just do their jobs.
After awhile this just enforce the law mantra starts to sound really idiotic.
Too easy.
Left by AJStrata on June 18th, 2007
What’s too easy AJ? Do you think you rebutted my point with that?
Not at all! You are the one who has spun the polls, two different ways, with two different results, then you lecture me on how polls are not important, if they don’t agree with you!
I didn’t do that, you did; you’re not rebutting me, you’re rebutting YOURSELF!
Dude – these are American Citizens. This is nativism at its most obvious and clear. They are FELLOW Americans, not Mexicans anymore. Face it, you don’t like hispanics.
Left by AJStrata on June 18th, 2007
AJ: do you even know what you are posting any more on this topic?
Why did you say that to him, that’s not true!
Besides, who is/are “American citizens”??
What are you saying there, are you saying the ILLEGALS are “American Citizens”??
Is that what you are saying? Are you pulling a Harry Reid and a Geraldo Rivera; who both, in the past two weeks, have referred to the ILLEGALS as “undocumented AMERICANS”!
Is that what you are saying?
Because it is clear to me, from R05’s statement, that he is talking about the ILLEGALS, and you’ve just plain out granted them all American Citizenship with your comment!
I thought enforcement promised that he was not going to post on this anymore.
Terrye, and where are we going to get the resources to process upwards of 20 million people? How are we going to complete background checks in just 24 hours when ICE and the FBI admit they can’t process all the applications they have now?
Try reading the damn bill. Until then, you are just a uninformed person who is buying the crap that AJ puts out.
R05,
You can process quite a few applications for background checks using the fingerprint systems now in place. And you don’t need to do them in 24 hours. These people have been here sometimes for 10 years or more. Another day is not going to bring the sky down.
And at least Terrye knows the difference between citizens who vote and illegals who can’t.
Dale,
I never spun the polls. The ones I sited had the results they have. And when the WSJ poll came out showing a big drop off in support I noted it.
I just don’t get led around by the nose by them.
And yes, I refuted all of what you posted quickly and easily. As I said, if you put faith in polls to do what is right you would vote Democrat since polls say they are right on the issues.
There’s your logic for ya!
Dale,
I never spun the polls. The ones I sited had the results they have. And when the WSJ poll came out showing a big drop off in support I noted it.
I just don’t get led around by the nose by them.
And yes, I refuted all of what you posted quickly and easily. As I said, if you put faith in polls to do what is right you would vote Democrat since polls say they are right on the issues.
There’s your logic for ya!
Great Post AJ!
The one on the home page that is.
I see you got the dog chasing it’s tail again.
Dale,
The comment to R05 was about HIS comment about voters supporting Kyl and how the 40% of Hispanics who voted for him should be the responsibility of Pres Calderon (sp?). I was noting how judgemental he was being regarding US Citizens of Hispanic decent, and what it exposed about his feelings.
Read slower.
Polls are strange, if you asked me if I thought border security was a priority I would say yes and I am sure there are people who do not support any kind of “shamnesty” who would say they supported guest worker programs.
So we are at the mercy of the pollsters. I know that gallup and Rasmussen sound as if they are talking to people from two different countries when they do polls on immigration. There is something so subjective about polls.
As for polls making a thing right or wrong, it should be remembered that the pro life people have very rarely come out on top in the polls and yet that did not change their minds or their hearts.
However, elections are the real deal and right now the people who appear inflexible are not doing well.
People do not like the idea of a lot of things like amnesty {who would?}, but they do want some solutions that will work. They want alternatives to the status quo.
And I just do not see how ignoring 12 million people and hoping they go away can be considered a solution.
For instance, I do not think a lot of these people can even agree on what “secure” is. Does it mean all the borders or just the one with Mexico? I don’t know, but there are some real unpleasant and obnoxious people out there driving this debate and that is not good for Republicans.
And AJ, don’t bother trying to get through to Retire. He has not even come to terms with the fact that four or five generations ago Spanish was the language in the southwest and the place was settled by people who named their communities with strange sounding names like El Paso and Los Angeles and San Diego and Corpus Christi and Tuscon and Reno and Santa Rosa and somehow they managed to become Americans and pay taxes and send their sons of to war wearing the uniform of the United States.
They are not really citizens to people who want to see a more European {white} America.
LOL!
Ro5, you were discussing how Hispanic Voters for Kyl were Mexico’s problem sent here. Either type slower or do something to communicate better. I just showed you what you wrote in quotes.
Not my fault if you can’t get your point across!
AJ–
…As I said, if you put faith in polls to do what is right you would vote Democrat since polls say they are right on the issues…
Oh, brother. Now that is circular reasoning, since most of the Democrats won’t take a stand on anything unless they put their fingers in the wind first. If the public decided tomorrow that they really wanted to win in Iraq, the Dems would be climbing all over each other trying to show how warlike they are. Don’t deny it, that’s what they did when the public went sour on the war.
Naw, AJ, illegals don’t vote, do they?
http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=119078&article=2138213
So AJ, if the FBI can do background checks so fast on those who are going to apply for visas, why are there still over 300,000 waiting for those background checks to be completed by ICE and the FBI? Why is it that at least 15,000 from the ’86 amnesty doesn’t have their background checks completed yet?
These people have been here 10 years? Where did you come up with that? The bill says they have had to be here since December 31, 2006. Hell, that’s not even a year yet.
Are you dizzy from spinning yet, AJ?
I think there would be more support for the bill is there were not so many big far lies being told about the bill.
For instance, I have heard people say that these people get all the rights of citizens including the right to vote. I have heard people say there is no border security provisions in the bill. I have heard people say all kinds of things about the bill that are not true and I think that it has made people uneasy.
However, people do not want to deport millions of people, they do want to give some people the opportunity to become citizens, they do support guest worker programs and they do want better border security.
The trick is getting a bill that the hardliners will not destroy before it even sees the light of day.
And if you can not sign these people up for a data base or tamper resistant cards, how will you ever enforce the laws? After all to enforce the laws you have to be able to identify who the aliens are and where they are.
No, I think that people have tried to oversimplify this problem.
AJ: sadly, you’ve never refuted anything I posted; you only refute yourself on this topic; you’ve adopted and aruged both sides of every poll, and you spin “supporting” arguments, quote out of context, cherrypick; ignore the actual facts, etc., etc., and pass if off as “analysis”, and your only refutate of ANYTHING that I’ve ever posted, is that “it’s my site”1
No AJ, sadly, you cannot refute me, nor anything I post, on this topic…
And you certainly didn’t refute my last post on the polls; you cherry pick the polls, as you see fit, and insult the “winners” of the polls, when they disagree with you, and when you think you find ONE poll that does agree with you, you trumpet loudly from the rafters, as “proof” that you are correct…
Sigh….No AJ, you cannot refute any post I made, nor rebut it; you only do that to yourself…