Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
I think what Dale is overlooking is the fact that in the midterms the hispanic vote went 29% for Republican. In 2004 it was 44%. I have read that without 40% Republicans can not win in national elections. And this is not about “pandering” to illegals, when people like Linda Chavez are being called insulting names because they are Latino do not be surprised if hispanics vote Democrat just because the Democrats act like they want them around. Which is more than can be said for a lot of folks on the right.
You can deny it all day, but I have read and heard things in the course of this debate that have made me wonder if I want to be associated with some people on the right and I am a middle aged middle class white woman.
And the Democrats are picking up support. The people are not going right, so whatever you are taking away from the polls, remember that number. It is one thing to kill this bill, it is another to commit political suicide in the process.
Because sooner or later it will be necessary to do something, with or without you. It is only a matter of time. It might be incremental, but it will happen.
Well Dale, at least AJ tries to support his position with real ideas.
He does not just create a toxic environment by calling people traitors and then scream enforce the laws and build a wall over and over again until most of America just tunes out.
But let me elaborate:
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism.
Whatever that means, but it smacks of hyperbole.
So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now.
Well, I’m one of the “hardliners”on the right and I couldn’t care less about the 12+million that are already here. It’s the 30 million in the next 10 years I’m concerned about.
Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime,
Because we are naive enough to know there will never be any fines/back taxes or background checks.
Paperwork crime
That’s the new term for stealing someone’s Social Security card and Identity? All righty.
As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And of course that’s true because the ‘plan’ is instant amnesty and legality
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first
So securing the border is a canard!!!
I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants.
Would you mind publishing the results of this scientific survey? I personally don’t even know any conservatives who work and live with illegal aliens, but you know and have surveyed ‘lots of them’ sounds like a slight exaggeration, but I’m open to you publishing the results of your survey.
and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay).
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say ” most come legally and become illegal” legal status is transient? hmmm you mean legal people become illegal people?
So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all.
And this was revealed in your survey?
It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
Hyperbole? or exaggeration? Where did you get this insight?
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border!
Backasswards engineering. If the border is secure, we’ll know. There won’t be illegal aliens coming across.
And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system.
And these people that are still being processed from the 1986 reform bill, How is the system ‘measureing’ them? As still illegal or just ain’t got to ’em yet?
But this New deal will get all 12+million cleared up within 24 hours? You on the market for some oceanfront property in Arizona?
So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark.
Uh, I think it’s the non-amnesty-non-hychondriacs that dreamed this up.
We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
Did you momentarily forget which side you’re arguing? You’re the one that thinks registering and processing 12+million overnight is a snap. The right hardliners don’t care about them one way or the other. Secure the border, they’ll take care of themselves.
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward.
Does the word ‘naive’ begin to sound familiar here? We’re going to entice the poor dumb hard core criminals to reveal themselves so we can deport them? Ha Ha Ha. As you said, as I quoted you before from your archives, there are federal laws that can be used now to deport hardened criminals. We don’t need a new one, just enforce existing.
Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs).
So we give the really bad apples (who I guess, by now, have a tattoo of a rotten apple on their forehead) legality and one of these new tamper proof ID’s and a lawyer to appeal their case for the next 25 years to prevent deportation. Sounds good, next?
So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them. And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation,
Using existing laws? No, sounds as we should be deporting them now using existing laws instead of waiting for a pie-in-the-sky bill to make them all legal(after being foolishly enticed out of hiding).
And don’t forget to click your heels three times!
So now they’re the Gestapo?
And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick.
So then we won’t always be hardliners, amnesty hypochondriacs, etc?
And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this: Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Actually you are the only one I have read that is suggesting this. Or could you provide us a link to someone else?
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters.
Not knee-jerk? what kind of Bush-hater are you?
We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy. … It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President.
Why are you insisting that Pres Bush is sick, he still exercises every day and seems to be the picture of health to me?
hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now.
I guess I’m not reading the same sites you are. The only mention of coup d’etat I’ve seen at all has been by you. Are you trying hypnotic suggestion?
Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them.
But you don’t put yourself into this category do you? hmmmm…..
Don’t take any of this personal, just trying to illustrate a crock of crap.
Funny Terrye in the generic democrat republican polls Rasmussen says just the opposite
During the past month, George W. Bush’s Job Approval rating fell to the lowest level of his Presidency. Additionally, the number of Americans considering themselves Republicans has once again fallen to a new low. However, the number identifying themselves as Democrats also fell and is now at the lowest level in 17 months.
Again those pesky facts.
And Dale, it is not about just accepting flawed legislation, it is realizing that this is part of a process and by expecting to get everything you want up front, you have created a very high standard that it is unlikely any legislation will reach, especially in a Democratically elected Congress. I do wish people would grow up.
Never mind that money is tied to the fines that are to be paid by the illegals (a catagory eliminated by the Shamnesy Bill) when they apply for citizenship.
And don’t forget the earliest they can apply for citizenship in this bill is 13 years if the non-amnesty-non-Hypochondriacs are correct. That means they will start collecting the 4.5billion in only 13 years. Who’s blowing smoke?
He does not just create a toxic environment by calling people traitors and then scream enforce the laws and build a wall over and over again until most of America just tunes out.
Left by Terrye on June 18th, 2007
From Rasmussen come these figures
Sixty-nine percent (69%) of voters would favor an approach that focuses exclusively on “exclusively on securing the border and reducing illegal immigration.†Support for the enforcement only approach comes from 84% of Republicans, 55% of Democrats, and 69% of those not affiliated with either major party.
And that is only one option in the poll doesn’t sound like tuning out to me to generate those kind of numbers.
Terrye,
Does the Right want to lose the hispanic vote
So the right presently HAS the hispanic vote?
That’s comes as news. Could you provide a link?
Merlin:
I don’t know what you are talking about in that last poll. I am saying that I think Rasmussen has a particular mindset when it comes to immigration and I think gallup has another.
I also said that more and more people were going to toward the Democrats. This might be a natural cycle or something else.
And of course when you have the right raving like loons that does not help any Republican president.
Yes, those facts are pesky, like the ones that say people who keep saying just enforce the laws are not being honest about what it would take to do that, or if it is even possible at this point.
So, if you can not find them to sign them up for a viza program how will you find them to deport them and if you do not deport them then how is that just enforcing the laws.
I think you want to enforce some of the laws some of the time for some of the people in some of the places.
The truth is, I just wish people would approach the problem with less passion and more pragmatism, come up with the most reasonable solution and work toward it.
So sue me. I can compromise, I think this issue could be settled if other people could do the same.
But blaming this old problem on Bush and vilifying him after years of doing nothing or too little is not fair. Especially when conservatives like Newt Gingrich had their chance and blew it.
retire05
I find your comments puzzleing. IF Kyl had gotten 20 perecent of the hispanic vote he might have lost. The trend is Republican or at least has been.
I guess I just have more faith in our ideas and that we can seel them Hispanic voting can be divided into about 10 seperate groups. It also depends on the areas of the country. Big clue here. White folks like me in New York vote differently than white folks in my Louisiana congressional district.. SURPRISE!!!!
Yes not all hispanics think the same. However they will punish those at the polls that treat them as one large monlithic group and with associations that have a increasingy bad tone.
We just need to keep building our hispanic strenth in the party. The Goal is hopefully that they like Italians like the irish, and other groups will divide their loyalities based on their individial ideas, views and economic circumstance. In fact that is already happening
$$,1 billion is being given as Earnest money. The complaint last week was that this would not be funded. THe Goal post move again
PEople need to use some common sense here
bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
you know who you are.
“And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now.”
aj, you are special. with the comment above you try hide behind the broad brush stroke of the “far right” to malign the 72% of americans that want the border secured first when you are really hiding this –you are not only a bigot but a race baiter…….you have become a pathetic little man.
see you losers later.
Sigh….this almost isn’t fair, but I have to do it I guess!
Okay, here is R05’s ENTIRE quote, not as AJ likes to do, and take things our of context, to support his views:
“If you think pandering to the citizens that should be taken care of by President Calderon is going to garner votes for Republicans, you are smoking something you probably should be worried about being busted for. Low income people ALWAYS vote for the candidate that promises the most free stuff and illegals from Latino socialist or semi-socialist nations will not change their opinions about socialism just because we let them stay in our nation after they have broken the law.”
It is clear, from reading SLOWLY, and reading IN CONTEXT, that R05 started a second paragraph, and was NOT in fact, confusing his Hispanics here; it is CLEAR in the context of THIS paragraph, that he is referring to the ILLEGAL aliens/Hispanics, and NOT the Hispanics in the first paragraph, that he referred to as Citizens, and Voters, and Kyl supporters!
That is CLEAR!
Hence, it is AJ, who has referred to THESE Hispanics, as “American Citizens”; the ILLEGALS, NOT the US Citizen/Voters that R05 referred to in his first Paragraph!
R05, will post to Confirm this!
Sigh…..
Unfortunately AJ, it is YOU that needs to read SLOWLY, and comprehend, and it is YOU who has referred to ILLEGALS as “American Citizens”. Now, that may not have been your intent; but you did do it, plain and simple, because YOU DID NOT READ SLOWLY.
Round One to Dale….
Here in this Post: http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/4058
AJ takes Poll numbers, that HE thinks supports HIS position; quotes out of context, spins, and misinterprets, as usual, and as others on the thread pointed out, to support his position!
Please note, I did not post ANYTHING on that thread, regarding the validity of the polls, whether I believed them, whether they were “right or wrong”, etc.; nada, zip, zilch, zero, nothing!
Now, in this current thread, Merlin makes this comment:
“Oh BTW Rasmussen has the approval rating for bringing bill back up for a second try at 20% now down from 23% the last time they tried.
Left by MerlinOS2 on June 18th, 2007”
To which AJ immediately responds:
“Merlin,
Lots of wonderful ideas started out unpopular. The Chicken Littles cannot stop progress. So what if it is 23%. If it passes Congress then it is the law. Fortunately we do not govern by polls.
At least leaders don’t. Mobs follow polls.
Left by AJStrata on June 18th, 2007”
Please note, AJ chastises me to “read slowly”; when in fact, he cannot even grasp that Merlin has said that the support is now 20%, down from 23%, but regardless, he then makes the stunning observation, 180 degrees out from his prior use of Polls, the following:
“So what if it is 23%. If it passes Congress then it is the law. Fortunately we do not govern by polls.
At least leaders don’t. Mobs follow polls.
Left by AJStrata on June 18th, 2007”
So now, all of a sudden, because the Poll is not what AJ wants, it now a matter of “correctness” of the poll, not the fact that the HIGHER NUMBER “wins”; it’s “correctness”, Merlin’s poll cited, “doesn’t matter”, “so what”, “we don’t govern by polls”, “mobs follow polls”, “leaders don’t” (follow polls); etc.!
Wow, now, all I did, was point out that “contradiction” in AJ’s logic, and use of Polls, and he’s claiming he “rebutted” or refutted me!
He did no such thing, because I DIDN’T CITE A POLL!
You AJ, cited the Polls, and when they disagreed with YOU, suddenly they “don’t matter”, and now it is a matter of “correctness” in the poll that matters!
Wow! What a subjective interpretation AJ, and very convenient!
WHO gets to determine “correctness”, AJ?
Obviously, YOU do, in your world, because you get to determine if the poll is on the high side of your position, it’s “correct”, but if it’s on the low side, of your position, it is now “incorrect”!
Nice!
Bottomline however, you refutted nothing that I said, nor rebutted it; the only person you laid a finger on, was YOURSELF; in both cases!
Sigh….
And at least Terrye knows the difference between citizens who vote and illegals who can’t. Left by AJStrata
So AJ, there has been very much said on your blog about illegals having the right to vote, now you’re saying they Don’t ?
It was the illegals voting JD Hayworth out wasn’t it?
Retire05
“and cared enough to actually read the bill before he gave it his support.”
This getting so old. First the bill is not even a finished piece of work yet. Second it has to go through the house where it weill be furthered changed. It is like people don’t understand Civics or the process.
I do understand that theis legislation is being treated differently than any other. In the real world we know that the bill can get better or worse as the process goes along.
IN the end people just want to kill that have the mentality of OH OH OH loks whats wrong. When I hear this I don’t hear people saying lets fix it. I hear people say kill it all.
It is all so transparent
enforcement:
That is so obnoxious.
Well Republicans were making inroads with hispanics, especially in the southwest. But….. since all these right wingers decided that hispanics were bad people who should not be allowed to become Americans because they might vote Democrat….. so to help win elections the Republicans had to go out of their way to make sure all the hispanics, including the ones who serve in law enforcement, the military, and who pay taxes are excluded from America because they are not the right kind of people doncha know. Don’t vote the right way, etc. sheesh.
It is as if the right has a political deathwish. We don’t need the blacks, we don’t need the hispanics, we don’t need women, we don’t need gays, we don’t need to win elections….
This should be about immigration, but the right has turned it into an antihispanic rally and that is just stupid.
Terrye the more you write the more clueless you become:
For instance, I have heard people say that these people get all the rights of citizens including the right to vote. I have heard people say there is no border security provisions in the bill. I have heard people say all kinds of things about the bill that are not true and I think that it has made people uneasy.
You know why you hear people say these things? because they’re true. They do get the right to vote.. There are no border security provisions in the bill..
Since it is clear that you still have not read the bill, you shouldn’t be trying to say what is in it. Tell you what….
What provision in the bill says that the illegals Don’t get the right to vote. Exactly what are the border security provisions that are in the bill and what section of the bill(page and line number will be fine)?
Or would you like for me or Dale or Retire05 etc to quote to you for the nth time exactly where in the bill the opposite of what you claim is located?
And for the record, you’re said before that you weren’t gonna post again on some things and you did. I laid off for the better part of two weeks, mainly because of the name calling.
Ah shucks, where we go again with Terrye, my head is starting to hurt!
“I think what Dale is overlooking is the fact that in the midterms the hispanic vote went 29% for Republican. In 2004 it was 44%. I have read that without 40% Republicans can not win in national elections. And this is not about “pandering†to illegals, when people like Linda Chavez are being called insulting names because they are Latino do not be surprised if hispanics vote Democrat just because the Democrats act like they want them around. Which is more than can be said for a lot of folks on the right.
I’m not overlooking that at all, I’m well aware of the “polls”!
Some of you all were just trying to convince me, that LEGAL Hispanics, i.e. US Citizens, tend to vote conservative, and want “enforcement”, and don’t want to be “pandered” too; now, you are arguing just the opposite; that they voted Democratic, because we didn’t pander to them!
Which one is it?
Terrye, if you can find one quote, where I called Linda Chavez a “name”, I’ll apologize!
“Well Dale, at least AJ tries to support his position with real ideas.”
WHAT IDEAS Terrye? PASS THE BILL, no matter HOW FLAWED?
That’s the “IDEA”????
Are you kidding me???
“He does not just create a toxic environment by calling people traitors and then scream enforce the laws and build a wall over and over again until most of America just tunes out. ”
Terrye, since this issue started on this Blog, MONTHS ago, AJ has done NOTHING but call people names, and insult them! ANYONE who disagrees with him, for ANY reason on this issue, is automatically a bigot, anti-Hispanic, and the best one of all (according to AJ) is a “Immigration Hypochondriac”!
And you’ve been right there with him Terrye, calling people bigots, and everything else!
And IF Terrye, you can find one single quote, where I ever referred to YOU, and/or AJ, as a “traitor”, please post it, and I will apologize!
I HAVE used the term, “traitor”, freely and liberally with two people on this Blog:
“THECENTERCANNOTHOLD” and
“Soothsayer”!
and almost entirely, due to their Anti-American/Pro-Jihadi stances on the GWOT, Iraq, etc.
And, my use of that term, “traitor”, directed at THEM, is in fact, TRUE!
But I have NEVER referred to anyone else, including AJ, nor you, nor President Bush, by that term.
I’m in fact, very judicious in usage of that term, and I ONLY apply it to those who earn it, such as “Sooth” and “Center”..
Okay, I’m done again on this, my head definitely hurts now…
Illegals voted Hayworth out? I doubt that. Is there any proof of that or is just another hardliner myth? Like day one they get a card, day two they get to vote, day three Spanish is the official language. Paranoia is not attractive.
Right , I forget all hispanics are illegal aren’t they? Even if their families have been here for generations, they are brown, they talk funny and so they can not be real Americans.
And Merlin, that was a push poll. Look at the question. How would most people answer? No, I don’t want to secure the border and decrease illegal immigration? How would anyone answer?
But you can look at the internals of several Rasmussen polls as well as gallup and find majority support for several other options as well, whenever they are presented. All these people are not lying, their answers are not contradictions. They are just answering the question as it is asked.
Are you saying the Rasmussen findings that show strong majority support for a compromise bill are a lie? I don’t think so.
You see, what you are doing is picking one finding in one poll and using it to support your theory to the exclusion of all other polls. That is not a fact, that is a supposition.
Terrye
All the polls show the resentment for this bill is widespread and across the board. This ain’t just an extreme right thing.
I could cherry pick comments of of some netroots blogs that would make you blush, but whats the sense?
Those of us trying to look factually at the bill have put out multiple links for those who wish to objectively view the impacts of the bill and make informed decisions.
AJ slapped at me because I didn’t post links to government data even though I explained exactly why I did not provide the links.
I have researched the data and I see troubling trends, but not the sky is falling.
I could share the data, but it would be ignored because it doesn’t fit what some people want to believe.
Many times data has been presented and rejected without good cause.
So mostly I will sit back and just see how this plays out and understand that generalities without basis are viewed by some as more important than doing their homework on such an important issue.
Patrick Neid: don’t go away; and here’s another quote that is applicable as well:
“Zealot”: he who has forgotten his purpose, but REDOUBLES his efforts!
Kind of apropos, don’t you think?