Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
Terrye
It is as if the right has a political deathwish. We don’t need the blacks, we don’t need the hispanics, we don’t need women, we don’t need gays, we don’t need to win elections
Would you give us a line to a site where someone on the right says that they don’t want the hispanic or women or gay or black vote? I’ve never seen it, but then I don’t frequent the leftie sites.
enforcement:
There are border security provisions in the bill, you are just too paranoid to believe they are for real. And nothing will convince you otherwise because you enjoy the paranoia. It makes you feel all self righteous and sanctimonious.
And it is a lie, a bold faced, out right complete lie to say that anyone and everyone who comes in this country can vote. This bill does not make it ok for just anybody to vote. That is bs and you know it.
I used to think you were a reasonable person with a different point of view, but your remarks show you are full of it.
By the way, the hardliners have been so busy yelling at everyone else over this bill they have not as of yet come up with one of their own that can pass or that even begins to address the issue of actually decreasing illegal immigration and enforcement.
They run their mouths, but so far all they have accomplished is to damage their party and their president, make the Democrats look halfway sane while at the same time they have offered not explanation as to how they intend to do the very things they demand be done.
Way to go. How much is Hillary paying you guys?
I don’t frequent leftie sites but when it came to hearing hispanics called wetbacks, greasers, criminals, liars, barbarians, savages, etc I did not have to.
Terrye: way to go; you’ve made generalized, all-encompassing statements, once again, I pointed them out, asked for your proof; you ignored my questions, and once again, have posted more, name-calling, generalized insults, that you cannot back-up, nor show sources for; then, you accuse us, of calling you names, and tell us to “grow up”; because we disagree with your position, to blindly support a flawed bill!
Wow, just a touch of irony there, dont’cha think?
Way to go. How much is Hillary paying you guys?
Left by Terrye on June 18th, 2007
Talk about “growing up”; c’mon; we disagree with you, and now, all of a sudden, WE are “Democrats”?
Are you a serious person?
“I don’t frequent leftie sites but when it came to hearing hispanics called wetbacks, greasers, criminals, liars, barbarians, savages, etc I did not have to.
Left by Terrye on June 18th, 2007”
Well, there you go again!
Could you please post ONE link, to any reputable website, or to a comment made by ANYONE OF US, that EVER, used such language towards ANY HISPANIC, on this site, or any other?
I’m waiting, please….
“
Terrye,
Illegals voted Hayworth out? I doubt that. Is there any proof of that or is just another hardliner myth? Like day one they get a card, day two they get to vote, day three Spanish is the official language. Paranoia is not attractive.
I have to second Dale, Terrye makes my head hurt. Illegals? vote? Hayworth? Don’t you read StrataSphere, I could show you quotes on many posts on illegal immigration that mention that fact. and those other things, No, you misunderstood the process, it all happens on day 2 after the 24 hour background check when they are all given legal statuse, irrevokable, and that includes the right to vote and speak Spanish and get the card and 13 years later citizenship… I thought you said you read the bill and know what’s in it then make a dumb statement like that.
Name calling,, all the name calling is by you and AJ, don’t see it from any Hardliners.
Oh yeah and as for the gay, I can not believe you even had to ask.
As for blacks, well that is how the Republicans got the southern white vote isn’t it? I don’t think that is the case today, but those stereotypes are there for a reason, and once they are there, they are hard to live down.
The same could be said for the Republicans in the 20’s who said they did not want Jews or Catholics. Those people are long gone, but the damage they did to the party lasted a generation. The same is true with women’s rights.
But then again, you don’t care what I think enforcement, you got it all figured out.
Build a wall, enforce the law.]
Terrye
I have seen you commenting on several other sites , not just here, and it is always the same.
Generalized fluff with no factual backup of any kind, but saying this is just an extreme right wing thing where all the opposition is.
When pointed out to you how it is documented as being widespread across the board rejection of the premise, you still blindly go forward with your original meme even though if was factually countered, and then you call almost other commenters differing from your position all kinds of nasty things.
Great method you have there.
I am not interested in some crap you heard enforcement. I heard that Jorge Bush is going to merge with Mexico and do away with the dollar too.
I said is there anything like evidence, or proof or whatever that Hayworth was actually defeated by illegals voting as if they were citizens of the United States?
I think the thing that I find interesting is that when the Minute Men get caught in some direct mail scam it is all hushed up, but when it comes to making outrageous claims about Bush and McCain and the plans to destroy America there is all kinds of yakking going on.
There is no point in talking to you enforcement and there is no point in people like Kyl or Bush trying to appease you. You have made up your mind, you will believe what you want to believe. You will offer no alternatives and since you distrust and hate your government as much as any loon on the left ever did, then anything and everything it does will be seen in the prism of that hate and distrust.
But we still need to deal with the problem, hopefully people like you will not make that impossible.
adios.
Terrye: There are border security provisions in the bill,
Annnddd I notice you didn’t tell me exactly in the bill where they are located. I challenge ANYONE to do that.
you are just too paranoid to believe they are for real.
for real? they don’t exist.
And it is a lie, a bold faced, out right complete lie to say that anyone and everyone who comes in this country can vote.
Avoiding reality there? terrye? The bill CLEARLY gives them that right. You’ve been quoted the page and line number numerous times. Paranoia?????
This bill does not make it ok for just anybody to vote. That is bs and you know it.
Okay, enumerate who it excludes?
I used to think you were a reasonable person with a different point of view,
Funny, I never thought of you that way.
By the way, the hardliners have been so busy yelling at everyone else over this bill they have not as of yet come up with one of their own that can pass
But my plan has already been passed, they just aren’t enforcing it.
make the Democrats look halfway sane
Just which dimmicrats do you think look halfway sane?
Terrye: Hmmmm, let’s see, some REAL History, not your interpretation of it!
Abraham Lincoln: Emacipated the Slaves
Party: REPUBLICAN
Abolitionists: almost, 100%, REPUBLICAN and White!
Gen Nathan Beford Forrest: Founder of the Ku Klux Klan
Party: DEMOCRAT
Enforcers of Slavery, and later Jim Crow Laws: almost 100% DEMOCRAT
Only living member of Congress/Senate who has been a member of the Ku Klux Klan: Senator Robert Byrd
Party: DEMOCRAT
Party that championed and PASS Civil Rights Legislation: REPUBLICAN!
Party that campaigned against, and filibustered Civil Rights Legislation: DEMOCRAT!
Party affiliation of the people who have most recently used the “N”-word in taped Conversation: DEMOCRAT (Senator Robert Byrd, and Bill Clinton’s BROTHER!)
Hmmmmmm, wonder how that all works?
Dale,
Maybe you should take the entire quote when you take it:
“WOW! 41% of Hispanics voted for Kyl. It seems biglsufan cannot do math any better than Terrye. This means that 59% voted against Kyl. And the last time I checked, it takes a majority to win. But never mind a little thing like a fact to get in the way of someone who wants to prove a point. And don’t consider that the Pew Hispanic Research Center (their names tells you all you need to know about what they do) says that 49% of ALL Hispanics vote Democrat compared to 20% Republican.
If you think pandering to the citizens that should be taken care of by President Calderon is going to garner votes for Republicans, you are smoking something you probably should be worried about being busted for.”
Note how the topic of the comment is voters (aka – US Citizens). Note how the entire first paragraph is about US Voters. Note how, in the 2n paragraph, R05 use the phrase “panders to the citizens” – which refers apparently to those US Voters being discussed previously. No change in subject. US Citizens all the way through.
Sorry Dale, but any fair reading of this is a slam against US Citizens of hispanic decent. You are not a mind reader – and R05 wrote what he wrote. So I will go with R05’s words and not your spin all them.
Merlin:
Speaking of generalized fluff with nothing to back it up, I am still waiting for a detailed explanation as to how you intend to just enforce the law.
And what across the board rejection? You have completely ignored every poll, every bit of information out there that might interfere with your rigid mindset.
Most Americans support guest worker programs. Most Americans support regularization. Most Americans do not want to see millions of people deported. Most Americans want to see better border security. All of this is true.
If you asked me if I thought border security was a priority I would say yes. If you asked me if I would support only border security if I thought it would deal with the problem of illegal immigration, I would say yes.
I just do not think it will deal with the problem. As long as we have so many other ways in, as long as there are millions of undocumented people here who do not have to come forward, I just do not think that a wall is enough. And I don’t think most other people do either.
Terrye
The exact group and required support issues you itemized are at the near the 20% level. How is that most Americans? Is this the new math?
Of course there are additional enforcement provisions in the bill and I am not going to find them for you. Find them yourself or refuse to believe they are there, whichever. I am past the point of giving a damn.
Sorry Dale, but any fair reading of this is a slam against US Citizens of hispanic decent. You are not a mind reader – and R05 wrote what he wrote. So I will go with R05’s words and not your spin all them.
Left by AJStrata on June 18th, 2007
Actually, it’s not my “spin”, it’s a fact of what he wrote, not what you interpreted; in addition, R05 will come back and confirm; I don’t need to “read his mind”, it’s obvious what he intended, and it’s obvious what he wrote.
In addition, his follow up comment to you, makes it CLEAR, that my take on his comment IS correct, and not yours:
“So now we know, Senator Harry (never met a land deal he didn’t like) Reid and AJ thinks that all the citizens of Mexico, or any other nation, who manage to swim the Rio Grande are AMERICAN CITIZENS.
Never mind they have not relinguished their citizenship to their native lands, the are AMERICAN CITIZENS.”
It’s CLEAR, from R05’s response there, that he had the exact same reaction to your comment, that I did; and he knew his own intent!
Ergo, once again, I’m correct on this.
But that’s okay, I knew that anyhow.
R05: Would you please come back, and confirm that you and I are both correct as to your “intent”; though it should be obvious, from the subject/phrasing of the entire paragraph!
Terrye: Have you completely lost your mind, or just well on the way?
I am not interested in some crap you heard enforcement. I heard that Jorge Bush is going to merge with Mexico and do away with the dollar too.
That ‘crap’ I heard was from AJ, I was quoting him. Did you miss that?
I said is there anything like evidence, or proof or whatever that Hayworth was actually defeated by illegals voting as if they were citizens of the United States?
As I said, it has been quoted on this blog many times (but no one reads the archives, they are ‘out of context’) Proof? Do you think when the illegals vote that they are ‘toted’ up as one vote by an illegal? I wouldn’t think so.
I think the thing that I find interesting is that when the Minute Men get caught in some direct mail scam it is all hushed up, but when it comes to making outrageous claims about Bush and McCain and the plans to destroy America there is all kinds of yakking going on.
You say this as if I were involved. What outrageous claim have I ever made about Pres Bush, I didn’t even know he had a plan to destroy America. Do you have any details on that plan you could share with us? and I never talk about McCain, he’s insignificant.
You will offer no alternatives and since you distrust and hate your government as much as any loon on the left ever did,
My alternative has already been passed, enforce the existing laws. Hate the government? hardly, I happily and proudly volunteered and served in the US military.
prism of that hate and distrust.
and this prism of hate and distrust of who? I’m not the name calller on the site.
Terrye you should consider reading what you write, it usually doesn’t make sense.
FE,
You are so full of BS I can smell you in VA. There is NO process in this bill to allow illegals to vote before becoming citizens and that takes 10+ years minimum. All they can do is get Z-visas (you do KNOW what a visa is and why US voters – aka citizens – do not need visas) to stay and work.
Geez, the idiotic paranoid delusions radiating from those right wing tin-foil hats is clearly causing some brain damage. All because of poor reading and interpretation skills. If it is not spelled out in 3rd grade sentences in a Bill somehow it then magically appears out of thin air.
LOL! Immigrants are allowed to vote. And the tooth fairy is real too. And laws just appear out of words not on the books!
Thanks for proving my point FE. Why would anyone take advice from people whose fantasies are so strong they have lost their grip on reality is just beyond me. But FE – please keep posting. More of this and that nonsense and the credibility of the GOP will be totally destroyed.
Un-effing-believable!
Dale,
As I posted either he slammed the citizens or has poor writing skills. I am open to either one. LOL!
What a mess you folks have caused with this amnesty hypochondria. I am sure you will look back at the mess you made of the GOP and be proud of all the marks you folks left on it.
Right now it is in tatters! Damn us ‘traitors’!!!
Terrye
Each and every enforcement provision in this bill have two common threads.
1) The are unfunded because the Senate can’t do that
2) each and every one has a discretionary clause that says something like at the determination of the head of DHS or some such similar language. So it’s all OPTIONAL.
Now that really builds faith as to how this bill is the greatest thing since sliced bread.