Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
Merlin:
I went over to gallup and found this. If you scroll you will see it covers a considerable period of time, up to this June. They even have a graph.
I am saying that 80% of the population do not want to see millions of people deported. 80% is not opposed to regularization of at least some illegals and 80% are not opposed to a guest worker program and 80% are not opposed to compromise. And I do believe that the majority want to see improved border security. They do not all agree on the best way to do it, but they do want more security.
This bill has been so maligned by its critics that people maybe very wary of it, but they are not opposed to all of its elements.
That explains why so many hardliners got their butts kicked in the last elections. They only look at the polls from one perspective and then even after they get beat, they still can not believe they are not the majority.
It is just like the social security issue. The Democrats and AARP were able to scare people off of private accounts, but most people still think the system is in trouble. They are just not sure about what to do about it.
Scaring people is a lot easier than fixing something.
AJ so clearly you still have not read or understand the proposed bill.
You are so full of BS I can smell you in VA. There is NO process in this bill to allow illegals to vote before becoming citizens and that takes 10+ years minimum.
Page and line number has been quoted to you so many times it must be engraved in your skull by now. That you choose to ignore it says more about your smell than mine.
All they can do is get Z-visas (you do KNOW what a visa is and why US voters – aka citizens – do not need visas) to stay and work.
Ah, yes I do, but apparently you do not.
Geez, the idiotic paranoid delusions radiating from those right wing tin-foil hats is clearly causing some brain damage. All because of poor reading and interpretation skills.
Hey, at least some of us have tried to read and interpret the bill, something you have not even claimed to have done. Is that because of NO reading and interpretation skills?
If it is not spelled out in 3rd grade sentences in a Bill somehow it then magically appears out of thin air. LOL! Immigrants are allowed to vote. And the tooth fairy is real too.
So you’re saying you believe in the tooth fairy? In fact, it is spelled out in the King’s english in the bill and couldn’t be clearer. Actually we’re talking illegal aliens that have been made instantly legal in the bill.
Thanks for proving my point FE.
Hey, glad to help out, but geez you sure make it hard,
Why would anyone take advice from people whose fantasies are so strong they have lost their grip on reality is just beyond me.
My point exactly, why would anyone take your advice until you get off this fantasy kick?
Un-effing-believable!
My point exactly. Thank for stating it.
Merlin:
Unfunded because the Senate can’t do that?
I don’t even know what to say to that.
And is not optional. Anything you do, whether it is Medicare or Education or anything is going to be dependent on Congress allocating and appropriating the funds. And anything is going to be dependent on someone executing the bill and there is always some discretion involved.
This is how bills are done, this is not Moses coming down from a mountain with words written in stone.
This bill is not even the final bill. There has to be House bill and then a conference bill…etc. That is how it works.
You have already decided that none of the provisions are going to be carried out and the bill has not even become law. This is like grabbing smoke. I don’t know if this will work the way it is supposed to, there is no way to know until and unless they try. But I do know that if we do nothing but argue things will never get any better.
Unless there is a recession and people just stop coming or unless the economies of countries like Mexico and Guatemala improve enough that people stop coming.
Terrye,
The very page you referenced only covers poll data up to 2006. Guess what on the same page at the right top their was a newer poll that must have scared you off by it’s title.
Quoting their opinion from the newer poll
June 06, 2007
While Majority Unsure About Immigration Bill, Those With Opinion Are Strongly Opposed
Little difference in level of support between Republicans and Democrats
by Frank Newport
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE
PRINCETON, NJ — Although the majority of Americans claim that they don’t know enough about the controversial immigration bill now being debated in Congress to have an opinion about it, opposition outweighs support by a three to one margin among those who do have an opinion. Among those who say they are following news of the immigration bill most closely, opposition is at the 60% level. There are only minor differences between Democrats and Republicans in terms of views of the bill. Independents are most likely to be opposed. Those who are opposed to the bill are most likely to cite that it provides “amnesty” to illegal immigrants in this country as the reason for their opposition.
Attention Being Paid
Gallup’s standard question asking Americans how closely they are following news events shows that only 18% are following news about the bill very closely, and another 42% are following it somewhat closely.
As you may know, Senate leaders and the president recently agreed on a bill dealing with the issue of illegal immigration. The legislation will be debated in Congress this coming week. How closely have you been following the news about this proposed bill to deal with the issue of illegal immigration — very closely, somewhat closely, not too closely, or not at all?
page 322 lines 34 and 35, couldn’t be clearer.. ‘voting rights’
FE:
I do not believe a word you say. Not one.
Biglsufan, first, I never said that Kyl only received 20% of the Hispanic vote. I said that the Pew Hispanic Research Center found that Hispanics vote 49% Democratic and only 20% Republican. Perhaps you can take a reading comprehension course.
AJ, I did not equate those Hispanics who voted Republican with President Calderon’s citizens. A paragraph usually denotes a change in subject or leads to another line of thinking. If you will read more carefully, you will see that the two subjects were addressed in separate paragraphs.
And Terrye wants to tout the increase in Hispanics voting Republican because of a 44% for Bush. While it may be true that Bush garnered 44% of the national Hispanic vote, it is not true that the Hispanics voted 44% Republican as a whole. This is just another spin from those who want to say “see, you immigration hypochondriacs are costing the Republicans votes”.
Terrye, not only do you make my head hurt, you make me wonder if you really have some cognitive disorder. You have been asked, time and time again, to site the bill itself and discuss the actual text of the bill. Instead, you throw out how you have heard racist remarks by rightwing immigration hypochondriacs against Hispanics. In my mind, the fact that you would even use such slurs to prove a point makes you the dirty dog. I guess we are to ignore what you, and the rest of the AJ groupies, have called us who question the text of this bill. Names like nativist (I had forgotten that patriotism and love of country is now an undesirable trait), and insinuated that because we care about our nation first we are somehow horrible people.
You and the rest of your ilk have ignored legitimate questions Dale, FE, Apache and I have posed to you. You are the ones who have no plans, just rhetoric. You love to throw out the old carnards like “just look at the treatment of (name your oppressed)”. As a half-minority, I resent that. I resent that you think that our nation has not grown in tolerance and understanding. But I would like to remind you of one thing; American Indians did not treat the flood of immigrants as a threat and look where they are now. And of course, resorting back to your liberal roots, you threw in the gays for good measure.
But if any of you, AJ, Terrye or Biglsufan, want to argue the text of the bill, I’m your Huckleberry.
Here is what Cornyn’s office told me Friday: if the bill passes, with all the proposed amendments, it will be upwards of 1,000 pages. The ACLU is already looking at it and trying to determine what parts, like the fines, that it will challange. The bill will be a judicial nightmare that no one understands, even judges who are schooled in Constitutional law.
And no, Terrye, conservative had not damaged the Republican Party. Those Republicans with a lip lock on Teddy Kennedy’s deriere are who have damaged the Republican Party.
You did not look at the whole thing Merlin, it goes into 2007 and there are specific questions about the bill etc. I just looked at the link again and saw it.
Oh and if anyone is still confused the bill that will be considered if the thing comes back up is not the one they put to sleep recently, this is a NEW draft bill so all those places you have been referring to for quoting bill provisions go out the door null and void.
The schedule that this thing is tracked for make it highly unlikely that the new text version will be released until after cloture occurs if the bill goes forward.
All the old amendments passed are officially history, were back to square one with a new square that nobody will know the content of.
Yup it’s got some 2007 data, but the graph stops at 2006
Lets look at some of that data (hope it formats right)
Wow that’s strong support for the bill the top two support groups a whole 11%
COMBINED RESPONSES: BASED ON NATIONAL ADULTS
Favor, strongly
Favor,
only moderately
Oppose, only moderately
Oppose, strongly
Don’t know enough
to say
No
answer
2007 Jun 1-3
4%
7
12
18
58
1
It looks like FE and the ACLU are on the same side:
Washington, DC – The American Civil Liberties Union today urged the Senate to oppose Senator Mitch McConnell’s amendment to S. 1348, the immigration reform bill, which is expected to receive a floor vote as soon as this evening. Senator McConnell’s amendment would require voters to present a government-issued photo ID in order to vote in federal elections. This requirement imposes an unnecessary and undue burden on the exercise of the fundamental right to vote for millions of Americans who are eligible, registered, and qualified to vote.
Merlin:
There are also links from that page that lead to other polls.
I think most Americans want to see laws enforced and secure borders. I would be amazed if they would answer differently on any poll. Think about it. What would people say?
I want the same thing, but I don’t think those laws can be enforced without additional resources and changes in the laws. And I think we need to decide exactly what we mean by “secure”.
From Terrye’s data
36% support stay and become US Citizen for illegals
12% think progress on immigration is being made
Less than 25% support deporting them all
Over half want to see the level of new immigration decreased
broken down to half of whites, half of blacks and above 30% of hispanics (averages)
When you look at the country of origin breakdown over 50% of hispanics think hispanic immigration is excessive
Terrye I do not believe a word you say. Not one.
The one word I said that you don’t believe is “one” where did I say that?
70 to 80 % think they take low paying jobs americans don’t want (doesn’t address same job at better pay)
70% want better border security hispanics low at 43%
If you look at the hispanics birth place only 55% born in USA
35% both parents born in USA
Only 24% believe controlling the borders is not or moderately important
While we are on the subject of paranoid hateful people deliberately spreading misinformation to kill this bill, or any like it, I read the other day that on Hugh Hewitt a claim was made that if the bill passed millions of people here legally would be forced to leave. Needless to say there was nothing offered up as way of evidence, but these folks do not need evidence, they are on a mission.
Right now it is in tatters! Damn us ‘traitors’!!!
Left by AJStrata on June 18th, 2007
AJ: I have NEVER called you, nor anyone I disagree with on this issue, a “traitor”!
Not once, if you can provide a link where I have done so, please kindly provide.
And to no include “Sooth” and “Center” in this; they earned that name for their stance against the President on the GWOT and Iraq; not on anything they’ve said about Immigration!
Terry
You keep missing , no matter which enforcement and deportation provisions you pass that you still have the same liberal immigration lawyers the same liberal immigration judges, there are still multiple appeal paths to various higher courts and the case load will be increased by about 300% or more even if you just consider verified illegals who are currently in prison for felony convictions.
If we had enforced existing laws all along, the problem would have never grown as much as it has, there would have been deterrence.
By years of neglect, liberal lawyers gaming the system and other advocate groups playing their part now we have a case load that will break the system because of all that accumulation.
If you look at all the illegals you have very few that are not current or former inmates, gang members, people using false documents (yes it’s still a separate crime). All those will have to be processed for deportation.
Terrye
I think most Americans want to see laws enforced and secure borders.
I think you’ve made it very clear that you don’t