Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
Merlin:
All you are doing is coming up with reasons to do nothing, while at the same time you say nothing is not good enough. Those lawyers are going to be there no matter what you do. In fact that is one of the reasons that the mantra of just enforce the law is so inadequate to the situation.
Here is a poll I lifted from Big Lizards . It is a behind a wall at NYT so I took it from this post.
The great majority of the country, however, is actually in agreement on most issues; and every element of the bill gets majority support. Look:
61. If you had to choose, what do you think should happen to most illegal immigrants who have lived and worked in the United States for at least two years: They should be given a chance to keep their jobs and eventually apply for legal status, OR They should be deported back to their native country?
Chance to apply for legal status: 62%; Deported: 33%
63. Would you favor or oppose allowing illegal immigrants who came into the country before January to apply for a four-year visa that could be renewed, as long as they pay a $5,000 fine, a fee, show a clean work record and pass a criminal background check?
Favor: 67%; Oppose: 27%
64. ASKED OF THOSE WHO FAVOR: Should they be allowed to apply for U.S. citizenship just like legal applicants, or should they have to wait until legal applicants have been considered first?
Should be like legal applicants: 16%; Should have to wait: 69%
On the question of increasing penalties on employers who knowingly hire illegals, 75% favor increased enforcement including higher fines, 15% favor increased enforcement without higher fines, and 8% oppose increased enforcement. On “guest workers,” 66% favor and 30% oppose.
And here’s the biggie:
73. When the US government is deciding which immigrants to admit to this country, should priority be given to people who have family members already living in the U.S., or should priority be given to people based on education, job skills, and work experience?
Family: 34%; Workers: 51%, Depends: 5%.
So there you have it.: When Americans are asked about the specific elements of the bill currently wending its weary way through the whitewashed walls of Washington, they are strongly in favor of each and every part: enforcement, regularization, guest workers, and reforming legal immigration policy.
Terrye
“While we are on the subject of paranoid hateful people deliberately spreading misinformation to kill this bill, or any like it, I read the other day that on Hugh Hewitt a claim was made that if the bill passed millions of people here legally would be forced to leave. Needless to say there was nothing offered up as way of evidence, but these folks do not need evidence, they are on a mission.”
We were on the subject of paranoid hateful people? The only people talking paranoid and/or hateful I’ve seen is you and AJ. You “read the other day that on Hugh Hewitt” well that is some really good information. “someone” made a claim. That sounds like you might have been over there making some of your foolish statements that you can’t or won’t back up. I’m sure if I or Dale or Apache or R05 etc “made a claim” you would expect us to back it up or you would consider it invalid, but you have no problem repeating a ‘claim’ that someone (and you don’t know who) made and you buy it hook line and sinker. And who are ‘these folks that are on a mission’ do they have two heads or something? (Notice I didn’t use the word ‘one’ which you take exception with)
Terrye
You still get me wrong after all this time and telling you many times before.
If we have to have a bill , I want a bill that will work and improve the issue.
This bill does not do that as written, there are to many optional parts that someone is assigned total digression as to what sections will be enforced and to what level. That makes a BAD bill.
Those are the things I want fixed.
Even if they are fixed, then we still have a massive enforcement backlog that will overload the system no matter how you cut it.
Terrye, very good info in your poll data, and every single one of those results are EXACTLY opposite your beliefs, so I’m not really sure why you were so anxious to post it.
unfortunate the current proposed bill supports none of this.
AJ,
The anti-immigrant commenters are offended by any labels.
Well, what label applies to the argument that Hispanics will lower our IQ and the “white” culture will be changed? Yesterday we saw this from Atlantin. Then he referenced a eugenics supporter. Then FE jumped in and complimented him for an article on white flight in Europe.
Terrye, you are doing a great job with the baracks lawers.
Apache, I haven’t had time to study your link. It may be an answer to my complaint.
Terrye
Your big lizards link is broken, it is spelled wrong.
The gallop pole you linked before that does not have numbered questions like the data you are using.
You only link to the site, not the post with the poll data.
Macker: you said:
“Then FE jumped in and complimented him for an article on white flight in Europe.”
to be accurate, here is my ‘compliment’
Atlantin, good info but you can’t use logic on the illegal alien issue. It’s only an emotional, name calling, personal issue. Save logic for something that it applies to.
It would be nice if in trying to suck up, you could at least be honest.
FE,
If that’s not a compliment, what is? And do you think the threat to Europe from Moslem immigrants is similar to the impact on America of Hispanic immigrants? If so, you need to get out more .
Talk about sucking up, you were associating yourself with a poster of dubious idealogies.
Macker,
you can’t avoid the issue. telling someone that an article has ‘good info’ that doesn’t apply to the subject is a compliment?
If that’s not a compliment, what is?
how about?
Terrye, you are doing a great job with the baracks lawers.
Now that is a suck up compliment.
and:
And do you think the threat to Europe from Moslem immigrants is similar to the impact on America of Hispanic immigrants? If so, you need to get out more .
At no time have I referred to Moslems vs Hispanic immigrants and I specifically said the white flight out of Europe had no relevance to the USA illegal alien issue.
and as I said: It would be nice if in trying to suck up, you could at least be honest.
Now you’re being even more dishonest in trying to make me a racist or ethnicists, no where have I used race or ethnicity in any of my discussions. Remember you, Terrye and AJ are the name callers.
Macker, just out of curiousity, do you think that info about white flight out of Europe is factual or made up? Do you, or do you not, think it indicates a looming real problem for Europe.
If you do? you’re a racist, buddy boy.
FE,
I don’t doubt many would like to migrate to America. The threat from Islamists is not racial. Europe’s problems are real. Socialism, low birth rate, faux equality and importation of workers with incompatible values all are producing Eurabia.
You should check out Atlantin’s sources. None in your camp disavowed them.
One more reason we need a fence
Border warfare: Illegals using fire to clear border
Oh what is the word for someone from across the border attacking your forces on your own land? War? What do you call what is allegedly happening along the U.S. border as set out here? U.S. Border Patrol agents seeking to secure the nation’s border in some of the country’s most pristine national forests are being targeted by illegal aliens, who are using intentionally set fires to burn agents out of observation posts and patrol routes.
The wildfires also have resulted in the destruction of valuable natural and cultural resources in the National Forest System and pose an ongoing threat to visitors, residents and responding firefighters, according to federal law enforcement authorities and others.
In the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, with 60 miles of land along the U.S.-Mexico border, U.S. Forest Service firefighters sent in to battle fires or clear wild land fire areas are required to be escorted by armed law enforcement officers.
Armed smugglers of aliens and drugs have walked through the middle of active firefighting operations, the authorities said.
Merlin:
Here is your Big Lizards link
FE, do not bother talking to me because I intend to scroll right by your posts. Life is too short to waste one more minute of it on you.
Here is another poll from a couple of months ago that contradict some of the polls cited by hardliners.
Terrye, can’t get away from the name calling, huh?
hardliners.
That poll doesn’t contradict hardliners? most law enforcement first types don’t care what happens to the illegal aliens that are already here, they just don’t want it to continue till another 30 million are here.
Life is too short? you not planning to live much longer? most be from worrying about all those illegal aliens.
And this is from Michael Barone’s blog dated May 23, 2007. He cites Rasmussen:
The Senate voted yesterday to keep the guest-worker provisions in the Kennedy-Kyl immigration bill. I think everyone who wants to pass something like this legislation should pay close attention to this analysis by pollster Scott Rasmussen. Key paragraphs:
Advocates of “comprehensive” reform have taken to arguing that those who want an enforcement-only policy must explain how they would deal with the 12 million illegal aliens already living in the country. The public reaction to that question appears to be “Why?” Only 29% of voters say it is Very Important for “the government to legalize the status of illegal aliens already in the United States.” . . .
Still, 65% of voters would be willing to support a compromise including a “very long path to citizenship” provided that “the proposal required the aliens to pay fines and learn English” and that the compromise “would truly reduce the number of illegal aliens entering the country.” The proposal, specifically described as a compromise, was said to include “strict employer penalties for hiring illegal aliens, building a barrier along the Mexican border and other steps to significantly reduce the number of illegal aliens entering the United States.”
The willingness of voters to accept compromise and allow a path to citizenship suggests both pragmatism and a strong desire to do what it takes to reduce the ongoing flow of illegal immigration. The challenge for proponents of the legislation is to convince voters that they are serious about enforcement and that the proposal will truly work.
You can frame questions on immigration to get the kind of results you want. But I think Scott has hit the problem advocates of Kennedy-Kyl have squarely on the head. Just saying enforcement is not enough. You have to convince people that you really mean it.
Merlin, where are the eco-nuts on this? Hell, I have a neighbor that can’t build on his land because the Houston Toad was discovered there.
This is a true story: a state park in Texas was going to do a controlled burn to rid the underbrush so that the trees would continue to grow. The eco-nuts from Austin found out about it and protested. The eco-nuts came up with a plan that Texas taxpayers paid for; the state had to tunnel under a two lane state highway and put drain pipes so the toads could escape from the controlled burn. Of course, there was no physical barrier that would prevent the toads from leaving the park to begin with but the eco-nuts were afaid that the toads would be run over by cars if they jumped on the highway. Everyone in the county was laughing our asses off.
But the illegals can trash our national parks, they can burn them out and leave millions of trash everywhere and the eco-nuts are silent.
My thought? Built the fence. Bore under it and put in large drain pipes. When the illegals pop their heads out of the pipe, haul their tails to a jail run by Sheriff Joe. They are just coming to work, after all, so then Sheriff Joe can put them on a county farm where they grow food to feed the poor of America. It would be a win-win situation. The illegals get to work and the poor get fed.
Wonder how hard they would work to get in if they knew they were going to be guests of Sheriff Joe and made to wear pink underwear?
FE,
Europe has a number of problems. Socialism is one of the biggest. Low birth rate and exaggerated tolerance don’t help.
The commenters in your camp didn’t disavow Atlantin or his sources. I guess you all buy the eugenics theories.
G.Bush handling of immigration issue
approve 27 disapprove 60
So they DON’T support the bill. hmmmm
Congress is doing their job
appr 35 disapprove 52
So public doesn’t like them trying to slip immigration bill thru.
22% of people think immigration is most important issue
not too much interest there.
republican popularity today compared to 2 and 3 months ago
34 2 months ago 34 3 months ago 38 today. hmmm went up huh, so the immigration bill is killing the republicans?
how serious a problem do you think illegal immigration is to the country right now.
61% very serious
30 somewhat serious
6 % not very serious
seems as if about 91% think it is more serious than not.
do you think illegal immigrants do more to strengthen the country or weaken it because of providing low cost labor
70% weaken country
23% strengthen country
so 3 1/2 times as many thinks it weakens country.
should illegals be prosecuted and deported just for being in the country illegally?
69% yes
24% no
that the picture you’re conveying?
I kinda had a hard time finding the support in that poll that Terrye does. I think she does a lot of wishful thinking.