Jun 18 2007
Catch-22 On Securing The Border
The far right is going full steam over the cliff of nativism. Oh well, it was a good ride while it lasted. So we might as well keep pointing out the illogic of their positions – just for fun. So, we noted how the real fear of the right is the legalization of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here now. Even though the amnesty hypochondriacs still cannot accept fines and back taxes and background checks as penalty enough for a paperwork crime, the fact is that is the fear that drives their resistance to this bill. All the diversionay worries are just rationalizations or cover so the country doesn’t become a ‘third world toilet’ as many classy people have eloquantly stated their hate. As we all know, if the bill did not deal with a path for those here illegally to move out of the shadows and become fully participating workers (pay all their wage taxes) then there would be no problem!
And the canard that we need to secure our borders first is a simple delaying tactic so the far right can stoke up more hate of aliens in general – which has been their bread-and-butter business for some time now. I have spoken to a lot of conservatives who work and live with immigrants and they all agree the GOP is headed for disaster. The hardest workers these business people have are immigrants. They have no way to validate the workers’ legal status, and legal status is a transient thing (most come legally and overstay). So when these people see their best workers being identified as illegal aliens (and being let go of course) they just shake their heads at the stupidity of it all. Everyone would prefer penalties and some process to keep their workers. It is the nativists who hope to ‘cleanse’ the country of the ‘diseased’.
So let’s remind these amnesty hypochondriacs that without dealing with the 12+ million people here we will NEVER know if we are securing the border! That’s right. You need some measure of whether the immigration is subsiding or increasing. And the only way to know for sure is to be able to measure who is in the system. And the only way to measure who is in the system is the get them INTO the system. So the far right have developed an impossible benchmark. We cannot determine success at the border until we can monitor the level of immigrants here now. Ooops! The hypochondriacs never thought of HOW to do what they fantasize. It is all so simple in their heads – it is amazing we ignoramouses who disagree cannot see the simplicity of it all!
These hypochondriacs are willing to leave the hard core criminal element amongst because they will not enact programs that entice the illegals to step forward. They are clear on that. They want so much punishment and hoops their Rube Goldberg Mouse Traps (i.e., the ‘touchback’ silliness) means we will not get a handle on who is here in the underground economy draining our public resources. Without the enticement no one steps forward. Without people stepping forward we cannot track and monitor them and give businesses the tamper proof ID and validation system to make sure everyone is on the up and up. And without people stepping forward we cannot cull out the really bad apples (those who do not have the new IDs). So they stay, and the far right insults their heritage and their culture. And al-Qaeda tries to recruit them.
And we sit here fat, dumb and happy on a powder keg – enshrined by the far right – with hard core criminals living in an underground culture with decades of experience going undetected inside our current FUBAR’d (but supposedly preferred?) system of broken laws. And these hard core criminals, instead of getting an expidited deportation, respond to the anger from the right with their own anger, which leads them to ponder dangerous actions to avenge their heritage and culture. And on the chance they meet someone from al-Qaeda who shares their hate of Americans…..
But this is the preferred solution. Keep telling yourself that. And don’t forget to click your heels three times! And remember – people who see this pending disaster are just not being realistic. And those crazy caricatures that people lable the right with will never actually stick. Never in a million years. How could they stick to the saviours of the free world? And of course, no amnesty hypochondriac would say this:
Given W’s untreatable Mexican fetish, it may be prudent to simply shove him out of Air Force One, swaddled in a golden parachute, somewhere over Mexico City.
Remember, the man is nearly 61 years old, and is obviously growing weary and older by the minute.
And why shouldn’t he be burned out?
After all, actively helping millions of illiterate peasants to invade America is hard work that would wear anyone out!
….
Some of use are not knee-jerk Bush-haters. We’re just wondering why he is obsessed with rewarding invading barbarians in ways that citizens and lawful immigrants don’t enjoy.
…
It is high time the VP do his duty under the constitution and replace our sick President. He tried to do well but the job was obviously too much for him and now he is being led and not leading.
And those leading him are destroying America.
Emphasis mine, hate from the hypochondriacs – who would now apparently support a coup d’etat right now. Never take advice from people so obsessed they not only figuratively turn on their allies, they ponder literally turning on them. Just a reminder, it was once ‘popular’ to own slaves and outlaw liquor and not give women the right to vote. All ideas once constitutional and part of America. For those who blindly follow laws and mob-popularity.
FE,
Enterprising people fleeing Europe is probably the result of its pervasive socialism .
When looking at all these polls and the crosstabs behind them a pattern becomes clear.
There is a lot of knashing of teeth but it is apparently mostly between the hardliner right and the hard liner left.
Despite all the registered disagreement between the right and the President, the rep support numbers are fairly unchanged.
However the Dems numbers are tanking and in a trend. A portion of that is due to the immigration bill but also other responses indicate a larger loss for the dems is lack of immediate or near term withdrawal from Iraq. Plus the dems are taking heat for their perceived do nothing congress.
When right of center position on multiple questions can hit consistently above 70 % or more that is hardly a marker of great differences and a split in the party. Sounds like more bark than bite to me and they are actually closer in concept than some would allow.
Terrye
Big Lizard needed to be careful with that poll, he picked the general concept questions which are not surprising in their results. However there are other questions in the poll that counter some of his concepts and maybe in the morning I will address them.
I could spreadsheet all the polls but I generally see they are all fairly in agreement within the margin of error. Proper interpretation requires looking a the full base of questions and each poll has it’s strengths and shortcomings.
Also one very important point , is that even though many supported concepts the bill was supposed to have, this poll Terrye addressed was very early in the game and I am not sure based on the date if even the draft was available for examination.
That has been the whole kicker here, people generally are in agreement in what has to be done, but once the bill was examined (by those who took the time) it exposed the weaknesses the bill has from getting from point A to point B.
Weakness due to questions NOT asked in all the polls I have looked at
Would Americans work the jobs others have displaced them from if the wages were enough to support themselves
Can America adsorb more low skill low wage workers or are we nearing the saturation point.
Only one poll out of 6 addressesed what to do with illegals who were also criminal lawbreakers serving time.
No polls addressed the issue of what to do about those who had used forged documents.
No polls addressed the legal system structure that is necessary to do the enforcement of the sections of the law
Only one poll addressed the concept of catch and release
There are many other things I could also hit on , but basically the polls I have seen hit the high spots and tend to avoid the nitty gritty of what is really needed to make the whole ball of wax function, just like the bill itself does.
It addresses the major poll points consistent with all the polls, with varying degrees of success, by has gaping holes related to the dirty unseen background stuff that has to be improved to have any hope for the thing to actually have a chance to succeed.
It’s like building a city without a sewer or water system. Doable but not very good in function.
This post is gonna have a couple of links so AJ will probably have to approve it
Read this one which has part about Iraqi Immigration into the US.
An interesting case as we are reminded that the US is on the verge of admitting up to 25,000 (and possibly more) Iraqi “refugees†in response to UN pressure…and doing so with an immigration bureaucracy that is hardly capable of dealing with existing workloads.
Note and this event does not include the impact of the pending immigration bill
Read this one also and remember this only talks about the number of known terrorists that have been exposed in the public domain to testify in front of congress with.
You can bet the bank the number is actually much higher.
This report covers the immigration histories of 94 terrorists who operated in the United States between the early 1990s and 2004, including six of the September 11th hijackers. Other than the hijackers, almost all of these individuals have been indicted or convicted for their crimes. The report builds on prior work done by 9/11 Commission and the Center for Immigration Studies, providing more information than has been previously been made public.
Macker
Enterprising people fleeing Europe is probably the result of its pervasive socialism
Probably?
Really?
How insightful.
Macker
Enterprising people fleeing Europe is probably the result of its pervasive socialism .
Probably?
Really?
How insightful.
Here is that complete quote from the bill that bestows the voting rights from page 322:
including the patriotic integration 27 of prospective citizens into– 28 29 (1) American common values and traditions, including an 30 understanding of American history and the principles of the 31 Constitution of the United States; and 32 33 (2) civic traditions of the United States, including the Pledge of 34 Allegiance, respect for the flag of the United States, and voting in 35 public elections.
I added the bold to highlight.
FE
I will take exception a bit there, I believe it is discussing their base knowledge of the voting process as an assimilation education , not giving them the vote.
Having said that, once the are re statused, look for the most liberal of states to give them voting rights justs with a zcard for local and state elections but not Federal.
If you are looking at the 790 page version, the same item is on page 646 and 735, just so you don’t have to look it up
immigrants who are not yet citizens don’t vote?
Think again.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0618/p03s03-ussc.html
Merlin, I know that’s been discussed and I think you would have to be an English Prof to answer definitively, but you can bet if it is open to interpretation, it will be interpreted as best to screw the American public, but here is the way I break it down.
including the patriotic integration 27 of prospective citizens into– 28 29 (1) American common values and traditions, including an 30 understanding of American history and the principles of the 31 Constitution of the United States; and 32 33 (2) civic traditions of the United States, including the Pledge of 34 Allegiance, respect for the flag of the United States, and voting in 35 public elections.
First: ”
including the patriotic integration 27 of prospective citizens into– 28 29 (1) American common values and traditions, including an 30 understanding of American history and the principles of the 31 Constitution of the United States; and”
you would have to assume that this is saying the integration of prospective citizens into understanding that America has common values and tradition BUT, not what those common values and traditions are, and that they have an understanding of American History and and understanding of the principle of the constitution of the US BUT; not know what that American History is or what the principles of the constitution is.
That would be kinda fruitless, wouldn’t it?
and then the second part:
“civic traditions of the United States, including the Pledge of 34 Allegiance, respect for the flag of the United States, and voting in 35 public elections.”
You would have to read this as: understanding that we have a tradition of the Pledge of Allegiance, but not knowing what it is or participating in it and that we have a tradition of respect for the flag of the US , but not knowing what that tradition is or participating in it.
Then you can make the leap to the tradition of knowing that we have a tradition of voting in public elections but not knowing what voting was or participating in it.
That wouldn’t make much sense to me.
I would interpret the entire passage as knowing, understanding and participating in each of the items listed.
or this way:
including the patriotic integration of prospective citizens into
(1) American common values and traditions, including
a: an understanding of American history,
b: the principles of the Constitution of the United States
(2) civic traditions of the United States, including
a: the Pledge of Allegiance,
b: respect for the flag of the United States,
c: voting in public elections
This is clearly saying to integrate prospective citizens into civic traditions which include the Pledge, Respect and Voting. I don’t see how it could accurately be broken down any other way.
R05 and Merlin, I know you both remember a couple weeks ago discussing the issue of illegal aliens voting.
In Oregon, for example, you have to show no proof of anything to get a drivers license and once you get that you are registered to vote and it is all mail in voting so no one ever checks whether it is legal or illegal, they just vote.
I know it was documented that JD Hayworth got defeated by the illegals voting in his district. I don’t remember all the details but it was discussed several times on this blog.
So anyone not believing the illegals are voting in huge numbers would have to be naive.
One benefit of the bill, from the proponent side, is that no illegals would vote. There wouldn’t be any illegals to vote, they would all have been made, instantaneously, legal.
FE, I gave the link where there are thousands of illegals registered to vote in Bexar County (pronounced Bear, for you yankees and where San Antonio is located) and they even learned that some did actually vote, although, according to a friend involved in the recount, Bexar County are not really sure how many voted. Some think that it contributed to Henry Bonilla’s loss and that when there was a run-off, the illegals voted in greater numbers. Bonilla, a Tejano, was against amnesty.
In Texas, all that is required to register to vote is to fill out a card, check the box that says you are a legal citizen (no proof required) and send it in. Thank you Bill Clinton for the MotorVoter Act. If a person registers at the Post Office or the county offices, at least they have to provide some information for the state of Texas. Really important things like a utility bill, pay check stub or a library card.
The Texas Senate, which only meets every two years, had a bill in front of it that a photo I.D. would be required when voting. Senator Gallagos (yes, a Hispanic) who had just had a liver transplant, had a hospital bed moved into a room off the side of the Senate floor so he could vote against it. It did not pass.
When registering to vote in Texas, you don’t even have to prove you are using your legal name if you register through the MotorVoter Act. How is that for stacking the deck against those Texas politicians who want border control and no amnesty?
yep, that’s the one I was referring to, and another about Oregon.
Can’t blame the far-right hypochondriacs on this report:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070619-121822-3573r.htm
“House Democrats say they may break the immigration issue up into a series of smaller bills that would put off the tougher parts and allow others to pass, such as border security, and high-tech and agriculture worker programs that have clear support. “
Can’t blame the far-right hypochondriacs on this report:
Well, not reasonably, but I’m sure a way will be found
They have been voting here in N.C. as well.
We had a case of E Colie in a China Grove, N.C. restaurant that killed someone recently. Drudge had a link to the story earlier today. It seems the Cook, a “Hispanic” who only speaks Spanish, slaughtered a Goat one night. They then used the utencils on the regular menu items the next day. They had to bring in an Interpretor to get the Cooks statement. Want to be on his status?
Charlotte is trying to get a Bond for over 600 Million Dollars for Schools. But the Citizens are taped out. A big fight over this locally.
Of course out of the additional 5,220 new students this year, 2,660 are “Hispanic”. And our Illegal Gang problem rages on.
The Washington Times has some excellent articles today. In one, the mention the Illegals starting fires in our National Parks on the Border. In another they talk about the House wanting Security First, Amnesty later. They want to pass just what is needed for Border Security. And finally, a great Op-Ed by the Times.
Take Care, got to go.
FE
I still maintain the that specific language of the bill was about teaching the concepts of integration.
However there is much evidence out there in the wild of illegals already getting the power of the vote.
Think how that will play out with neolegals or all the other forms this bill creates.
Meanwhile the bill is passing through for 2nd choice afterlife and the press coverage is a big ho hum, it’s like it isn’t even going on.
I am short live feeds I had last time around for this puppy and it has more stealth than an F-17.
Even CSPAN has gone brain dead.
Damn I’m waiting for Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan to do something really wild and crazy sorta kinky with Paris Hilton just to jolt us all up.
Merlin, I agree, as I said that it could be interpreted at least 2 ways.
so in this:
(2) civic traditions of the United States, including
a: the Pledge of Allegiance,
b: respect for the flag of the United States,
c: voting in public elections
So in a: it would only be teaching the about the Pledge of Allegiance, they wouldn’t actually be ‘doing’ it?
and they would only being teaching them about ‘respecting’ the flag, not actually doing it?
then voting would be teaching them about it, not doing it?
Doesn’t make sense that someone that wouldn’t be a citizen for a minimum of 13 years would have to learn about the Pledge of Allegiance traditions and it not mean anything til a min of 13 years down the road. ditto the others.
Grammatically, it can only be interpreted one way correctly, but I’m not sure which way that is.