Jun 20 2007
Administration Answers Immigration Critics With Brutal Reality
Ed Morrissey posts on one of the many conspiracy myth’s running around the GOP circles as they do their amnesty hypochondriac Chicken Little dance. This one had to do with how long it takes to process Z-Visas compared to passports (not EVEN the same thing) and the ridiculous myth background checks take time (having worked briefly on a design for the FBI’s modern fingerprint identification system I know this to be a myth personally). Here is the answer to the critics (for all the good it will do since the critics are not listening, they are running in full mob-induced panic):
I can see how, in order to score a quick point, it would be tempting to equate the passport backlog with the issue of Z visas.
However, you make a false analogy.Background checks are not a significant factor contributing to the current backlog in processing passport applications. Instead, the key reason for the delay is the non-automated and very labor-intensive process of verifying that the individual is indeed a U.S. citizen. Another major reason for the passport backlog is the time-consuming process for producing the passport itself, which requires an electronic chip, a machine readable strip, and other tamper-resistant features.
By contrast, adjudication of a Z visa application does not require verification of citizenship status because the individual acknowledges at the outset that he or she is illegal. And any delays due to production of the document, of course, are irrelevant to DHS’s ability to handle the background checks.
The background check at issue for the current undocumented is an automated process involving an electronically captured print that will be run through database checks.
I made this point many times. Bounced right off the redfaced foreheads of the hypochondriacs. They don’t understand the process or the systems, but damn they are expert geniuses when they need to be. Did it move Morrissey? Nope, he went to grasp another straw:
However, this isn’t quite responsive to the main thrust of my argument. It does address the issues surrounding the 24-hour background checks, but not the main point about allocation of resources and the instant creation of a new bureaucracy that will have to handle upwards of 12 million applications almost immediately.
Sorry, but as much as I like Ed Morrissey and I know he is the superior blogger, he is just making a silly point here. First off, the 12 million will not come in the door all at once on day one. Second, they will not need to be processed all at once, but the system has a huge capacity. Needless to say those that come forward initially will have little to fear from the background checks! I mean – Duh! The purpose is to get the haystack of good, reasonable people to come forward and step away from those bad needles we need to find and deport! So what if we wait a bit (and I mean a short time) to validate their own confidence they will pass the check? Geez, doesn’t anyone remember the purpose of this?
In addition, what is the alternative? Oh yea – no one steps forward and no one gets checked! We do nothing. So in a fit of a incredibly implausible scenario dreaming we see the reason to do nothing. But let me bring technical reality into the debate (and very few are going to argue a system I know about). IAFIS is the current finger printing system. Here is a capacity metric for it from last year:
While Congress initially mandated a capacity level for IAFIS of 62,500 matches daily, the system’s busiest day so far has reached the 100,000 level.
The architecture is a completely scalable parallel processing system which processes requests by sending them to a number of parallel processing core servers. Capacity is EASILY increased by simply adding more core processers AND by upgrading the existing ones to faster motherboards. But let’s do some math for the hypochondriacs on last year’s capacity numbers. At 100,000 submissions a day the 12 million submissions can be processed in 120 days. Yep. Less than three months. As I said, we know there will be a rush of people confident they can pass the check, but waiting three months do have them verified as crime-free after 20 years of doing nothing is a no-brainer. If you are using your brain. It takes longer to take the print than for these computers to do the match.
And make no mistake about it. The system can absorb these checks from taking them to submitting them. One day in our recent history (when IAFIS was operational) we had 100,000 prints somehow taken. That is how they hit that record number. The system is very large. Morrissey may have a question – but its roots are from his lack of knowledge. Not from a lack of capability in our government. What is the passport processing capacity of America? Again we have information at hand:
The Department of State set new records in March and April, issuing more than three million passports to Americans planning international travel.
This is clearly the much more arduous process than the Z-visa background check. But even at these levels it would take 8 months by this metric. 8 months and we would have 12 million undocumented workers now documented? The actual time is probable between these two numbers so between 3-8 months, depending on how many people come forward. Seems like damn quick and better THAN DOING NOTHING. See, this can be done FASTER than building the wall which has simply logistical problems you cannot overcome. In the same time it takes to raise a 5 story building you can get the undocumented documented.
I cannot help but note and share the administration’s exasperation with all these armchair experts who know nothing about what the government systems can do. I too weary of their lame excuses and irrational theories and inability to note how many times they lose these discussions when reality clobbers their fantasty nightmares. We can process the illegals just fine. End of story. Not the end of the hypochondriacs endless excuses to do nothing. No, those will never end.
Update: Ed Morrissey has responded and I clearly did not communicate my point:
AJ Strata thinks I’m gnowing at a bone of amnesty conspiracy thinking. Actually, my original post had nothing to do with “amnesty”; it had to do with competence, and AJ missed the point. He claims that the government has the ability to process 100,000 illegal aliens a day, but where is this supposed to happen and who’s supposed to do it? I’m sure that eventually they could get it done, but they don’t have the capacity to resolve an extra 5 million passport applications over a one-year period despite having an eighteen-month head start on it.
Actually, what I said was the amnesty hypochondriacs were the ones using the canard that we cannot pass process the background checks. I only said Ed Morrissey posted on that myth. I did not miss the point. But maybe it is just not so obvious to some as to me. The Administration quote mentions the background checks, which is done using the FBI’s fingerprint system called IAFIS. Ed Morrissey wants to know what system is going to do it? THAT system – IAFIS. It ties fingerprints to criminal records. This is well known to some, definitely to me. OK, it is not clear to Morrissey.
Which proves my point that his position is based on a lack of knowledge, nothing more. As the administration pointed out criminal background checks are quick and are not the driver on passports. The quoted response to him clearly mentioned the FBI processing the check. The driver on passports is different. It is the processing ito confirm US citizenship (hello – this is why the current system is too cumbersome for companies to confirm citizenship, even the government can’t get a quick answer – anyone listening as to why we need the bill?). So we are where we were before. Ed Morrissey posted a myth of the far right as fact. When told why it was a myth, with additional information from me which shows the EXACT capacity of the system which will be used for background checks, he doesn’t accept the fact the myth was busted. The administration answered his question on background checks, I confirmed nd clarified it – end of story. But the denial continues. Morrissey returns to repeat the same mistake he made initially. A background check (FBI and IAFIS) is not a check for US citizenship (Passports and Social Security, IRS and others). What are you going to do when they myth is busted and the fantasizers say “I don’t care, I still believe!”. LOL! You focus on the folks whose minds have not shut down. What else?
Update: Some information for those who want to understand the issue and the systems we have at our disposal. Here is a great pitch in IAFIS, portable fingerprint terminals and the whole lot which shows how fast we will be able to process people. Bottom line, we took the system to war with us and trained our troops to use it in Iraq and Afghanistan to collect information (clearly not going to find criminal records there). No big hit on their budgets. But if you want to find a potential terrorist IAFIS is the worlds largest (4 times larger than anything in Europe) and has connections to international systems. We use it to do background checks on all personnel supporting our military to make sure no one sneaks through the process. It works and is the best repository on the planet. This myth is busted!!
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Remember all those back taxes you keep yapping about, AJ? Check out Jeff Sessions #18 list. It fully explains (by someone who has actually read the bill and has a staff to translate the legaleze) about the fact that those applying for the Z-visa will not be required to pay back taxes. They will only be required to pay taxes AFTER they are amnestied and want to upgrade from the Z visa to a green card.
http://www.sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=275456
And AJ, your takedown of the Capt’s post, is nonsense!
The Capt has been a very sane and moderate voice in this debate, and his posts on this subject, are well reasoned, balanced, and reflective!
In addition, I work in an industry right now, where we do Background Checks, and Thorough Background check, which we pay Hundreds of dollars for, EACH, takes from 3 – 7 Business Days, PER EACH ONE!
IF it is done correctly!
I have no idea where you get this idea it takes minutes, or seconds, to do that, that is just plain ludicrous!
Dale,
What is it with you folks and your thin skins? Of course Ed has been low key – it is his nature. I truly admire the man (and he knows it because I have made it clear in my emails and discussions with him). But he doesn’t get a bye on grasping for straws. Sadly it took me a whole ten seconds to find the capacity of the IAFIS system (I knew the design, not the measured performance). I know what it takes (irregardless of what you pay somebody) to do the FBI check or being a convicted criminal. Want to know why you have to pay for the checks and they take longer? Because you are not the federal government and you cannot access those systems!
Duh!
Dale, do not pretend to dispute a system design I know very well (down to an dollar amount we negotiated with Oracle). And the fact is the processing is that fast. Forget it. Don’t destroy what credibility you have left pretending you know more about computer systems and how they operate. We both know that is not your experience base. I pointed to EASILY found metrics on what the system capacity is. And it can be increased easily.
This is information systems 101 my friend. And Morrissey cannot admit this myth has been BUSTED!!!
LOL! And honestly, I could care less right now who admits that issue is dead. My goal is to get the bill passed. I like Ed Morrissey, but his reasoning was not based on experience or knowledge, but on the lack of it. When the far right closed down and stopped listening to us traitorous moderates (check out Bikerken’s rants for an example) they became fair game. Establishing positions based on things like this myth was bad enough. Trying to salvage the myth based on a lack of knowledge was as I said it was – a last grasping at straws.
The numbers are there for the system. Denial is ludicrous!
Retire05
As to back taxes, can you tell us how the conservative voices are demanding the back tax provision be in the Senate bill and then plan to say that is UnConstitional because it originated in the Senate once this thing goes to conference? Blueslip it as it were. ALso as has been pointed out the money to stay at Z visa status is a lot. More than any back taxes that would have to be be paid. Especially at these levels of income
NExt
Dale
You said
“In addition, I work in an industry right now, where we do Background Checks, and Thorough Background check, which we pay Hundreds of dollars for, EACH, takes from 3 – 7 Business Days, PER EACH ONE!”
Dale:
the Govt will not be paying a compay to do Background Checks. IF they are then that is a scandal lol. THey shall be doing it. AJ is right. When I was a little ole asst DA I was able to get a rap sheet and a ton of stuff in no time. When people are processed their prints are run and they get results back lickety split. Theere is no major problem here
Actually, NASA can handle far more data than you just described…
Millions of data many times over per 24 hours for the shuttle AND station together. In terms of seconds, milliseconds, nanoseconds, etc.!
And we have humongous amount of backups of all kinds!! Needed for playbacks as well.
Our networks, computers, and servers are so fast today. We’re in the process of replacing the old Digital / Compac Alpha machines with the new HP dual core Linux boxes. Man, these machines are fast. But we’re having to adapt some of our software to run dual core.
Once the data’s in, no worries. Typing data in takes time but if they provide online electric forms, then no typing required!
According to the FBI:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/faqs.html
How long does it take to get a background check once the FBI receives the request?
Plucked directly from CQ -
UPDATE: AJ Strata thinks I’m gnowing at a bone of amnesty conspiracy thinking. Actually, my original post had nothing to do with “amnesty”; it had to do with competence, and AJ missed the point. He claims that the government has the ability to process 100,000 illegal aliens a day, but where is this supposed to happen and who’s supposed to do it? I’m sure that eventually they could get it done, but they don’t have the capacity to resolve an extra 5 million passport applications over a one-year period despite having an eighteen-month head start on it.
Obviously, it’s possible to do it, but this bill doesn’t provide the resources for it — and it’s one of several mandates in the bill that have to be accomplished concurrently. That’s my point, and neither AJ nor the White House addressed it.
– end the pluck
You are spinning everything as usual, AJ. And, as usual, you keep missing the main points while you are busy performing your spin.
Follow AJ’s link to CQ and read the update at the bottom. It is toooooo funny.
AJ, Sessions spells it out: an person is only required to show proof of paying taxes when they apply for a green card WHILE WORKING UNDER A Z-VISA, and only federal taxes, not state or municipal taxes.
But you respond with another question. That is a clear dodge. I ask you to provide the text of the bill where it addresses back taxes. So far, all I have heard are the crickets churping, but no response from you.
Now you are saying that we have the data speed available to process all these FBI background checks in the 24 hours mandated? If that is the case, then why are so many illegals who have committed crimes back on the streets like those who have been arrested on DWIs?
A.J., you have SO lost it.
Apache, below CQ’s comment are blog links. Click on the Macsmind link and read Mac’s Update II.
Bottom line: none of this makes a damn. The illegal will get probationary status within 24 hours, complete background check or not. What we will have then are tens of thousands of “probationary” visa holders, who don’t pass the background check, in the same shadows that they hide in now and who the hell is going to be looking for them? No one. And only if they are caught for a crime will they be checked. Another case of closing the barn door long after the horse is gone.
“Now you are saying that we have the data speed available to process all these FBI background checks in the 24 hours mandated? If that is the case, then why are so many illegals who have committed crimes back on the streets like those who have been arrested on DWIs? ”
I can answer that. First many local jurisidctions that have jails that are full sometimes release them on bond. Hold from INS be damned. Further, it is law local law enforcement that contacts INS when it has someone. INS doesnt find this out any other way. Also in the past and I am talking post 9/11 times the INS would not pick them up because of manpower problems or at that point it was not a huge priority depending on the offense.
THe problem that you are talking about had little to do with the computers.
THe only crimes that would not be turned up are in po dunk areas where the local authorites do not turn in the info.
“an person is only required to show proof of paying taxes when they apply for a green card WHILE WORKING UNDER A Z-VISA, and only federal taxes, not state or municipal taxes.”
Good grief now the Feds are responsible for state and even municipal taxes loL.
Many of these illegals have been paying taxes. THe IRS issues 7.1 million numbers last year for this purpose. Also , as I keep mentioning let us look at relaity here. These folks are not at a high income level anyway.
As the White House has pointed out there is no icnetive to stay at Z status. THe various fees that add up quite quickly are a major factor in wanting to move to green card status. THe amount of ines in many of the cases will be much greater than any possible past tax liabilities
One final thought. Conservatives might want to think twice about hiring tens of thousands of IRS agents to search all these records and employers with a magnify glass. When this is doen they will still be employed and I am not sure that is a great thing
I’m going with the rocket scientist on this one, not the captain of an imaginary blog ship — who obsequiously kisses up to Malkin.
Yeah A.J., this is now an all-out war started by extreme mighty righties, and there is too much at stake to spare any feelings. The hardliners & demagogues have pitched this thing to a point where there is absolutely nothing to lose by telling the unvarnished truth. Plenty of us tried and did abide by Reagan’s 11th commandment. But that law has been trampled many thousands of times over… now we’re talking survival, and we are in uncharted waters.
I am continuously amazed and awed by the fact that an INDEPENDENT unaffiliated Republican such as you A.J., is one of the leading voices of sanity and advocates of saving the GOP. Bless you for doing the job that should be at the top of the list of any genuine, thinking, conservative Republican with a microphone or keyboard.
Biglsufan, I guess the reason the Duka brothers (of the Fort Dix Six) were allowed to get over 50 arrests between them, some for violent behavior and some for traffic violations, is because their town in N.J. is just some podunk town? And remember, one of them was a pizza delivery boy, just doing the job an American won’t do. Right?
Of course, you are not worried about them paying taxes. Maybe we could just cut them all a check for their Earned Income Tax credit when they apply for their “probationary” visas? And how long do you really think the fines will last when the ACLU gets involved? I can just hear the ACLU lawyers now; “oh, all those poor people being oppressed by the Federal Goverment and being made to pay fines with money they don’t have. It’s sooooo unconstitutional.”
SallyVee, AJ has said repeatedly that he is an “independent”. That means he is no longer a Democrat [as he said he once was] but has not crossed over to being a Republican.
Fine, ignore the Captain. But can you ignore MacsMind? Mac is married to a ‘legal’ immigrant and he is saying loud and clear, DUMP THIS BILL.
Aren’t you a little old to be a groupie, Sally?
Heres a little dose of reality:
http://www.kerman94.com/mexicotourism.html
Here is what I heard on local Birmingham radio (1070 AM) at 6:30 pm this evening. There is a new local guy on in the slot normally alotted to the Savage Wiener’s mad ravings. I thought I’d give the new guy a chance, thinking maybe Savage got dumped because he’s insane, and the replacement is a bit more moderate and restrained. Wishful thinking as it turns out.
So the guy proceeds to read the details of Spec. Jimenez’s presumed capture and his wife’s pending deportation. He then reads the details of the “ponytail bankrobber” who is operating somewhere in the midwest, and who apparently struck again today. He then states that these two cases are no different — both are criminals and both should face the full and immediate consequences of their law breaking.
The guy states that the fact that an illegal alien happened to marry an American soldier is not germane to the discussion whatsoever.
Throughout this diatribe, the guy periodically interrupted himself with one of two phrases: “I’m sorry, this is really distateful, but…” and “Folks, this really breaks my heart to say, but…” and then of course he’d repeat that Mrs. Jimenez is a criminal who needs to go back to wherever she came from, ASAP.
Then the guy gets into Kennedy & Kerry, saying “here are two guys who’ve shown us over and over how little they think of our military, and now suddenly they are rising to the defense of an American soldier?” Well, he had a half-point there. But the more glaring point to me was that a Republican did not beat Kennedy or Kerry to a microphone to stand up for this couple.
Folks, unless one of you hypochondriacs actually know the system like I do then I did not lose. I failed to penetrate your mob-think. You do know some people still believe we never landed on the moon. They too deny the facts right in front of their faces.
IAFIS exists since I posted an article that listed the exact capacity of the system to do what Ed Morrissey was asking about. Not my fault he is so wedded to the myths that even when busted he cannot accept it.
The government can process the 12 million checks using fingerprints and the IAFIS system within 3-6 months. End of story. Prove me wrong! LOL – Good luck.
Retire, my God you are a busy body. Have you ever thought about taking up needlepoint?
I can and I do ignore the captain, though I once thought he was pretty level headed. And if you want to do the tit for tat, try reading Big Lizard, whose wife is also a legal immigrant and who experienced the tortures of the damned getting legalized in our completely broken, capricious system. The Lizard routinely cleans the clock of guys like the Captain, especially on the war and immigration. His logic and writing skills are so vastly superior as to be in another galaxy. And he happens to support the current immigration bill — warts and all.
SallyVee
I am not suprised what you have heard on the radio. It shows how far this sickness has gone. We have to still oursleves for a months heavy Casualties because we are about to go head to head with AQ in what could be the big battle. THe last thing we need is a uproar in the hispanic community deporting a missing war hero that God’s know what happened to him
YEt, some ofthe hardliners say no exception. The illegals must go no exceptions. I kepp pointing out the disruptions to the economy, the practical politcal consequences, the effect (SOCIAL and ECONOMIC) it will have on the 3.1 million American children involved and no ones cares.
The plan is fair and just and fits withina Christian ethic to boot.
What gets me is that finally throught he worker verfications systems we can finally end much of the illegal immigration. YEt people are still focused on this silly fence . Regardless that 40 percent of the illegals enter legally. Its bizaree. The sooner we get started processing the sooner illegal immigration starts to go down.
AJ, you are so seriously deluding yourself. I am a systems analyst and I have not only worked with several federal databases but have also developed some specialized databases on my own for the fed. You have heard of the old GIGO haven’t you? Garbage in, garbage out. Exactly what search criteria are you going to have on someone who crosses into the country illegally, uses a fake name and SSN who hasn’t been fingerprinted in the US before? The correct answer is NONE. And might I add, that the kind of background checks you need to do on FOREIGNERS usually involves another country! What don’t you understand about that? Have you ever tried to contact Somalia for information on an illegal Somali? They don’t even have a functioning government! Do you think you will get a good response from the land of corruption to our south? I might add, that if this is your real honest opinion, then you don’t know the system at all. End of story.
And what happens if they make a fake name, get fake documentation, then use the fake documentation with their freshly minted fake name, to get a State driver’s license. Next, they take their State issued driver’s license and give someone a $100 to vouch for them and they apply for their Z-visa. Of course nothing will turn up under their fake name, and now, here is the best part, a terrorist can freely travel all across the United States with a FEDERAL ID and the blessing of Uncle Sam.
It’s just so bloody brilliant!!
Only a politician could come with this plan and think it was a “good” idea.
We need better leaders in Washington.
Well, since the topic is brutal reality, check this out from Say Anything:
Americans give both President Bush and the Congress failing marks on their handling of immigration, according to a new UPI/Zogby poll on the topic.
The Zogby Interactive poll of 8,300 adults nationwide finds just 3% of Americans viewing Congress’s handling of the immigration issue in favorable terms, while 9% say the same of the President-even as respondents in the survey rated it the second most important issue facing the country, after the war in Iraq.
3% – OJ’s approval ratings are higher than that.
Roger Hedgcock, substituting for Rush today, had on Michael Chertoff and Jeff Sessions. Too bad no one heard it.
A week ago or so Rush took a call from a guy who was an Ex Treasury Dept. Officer. He was trying to get another Gov’t Job after 21 years at Treasury. THEY TOLD HIM IT WOULD TAKE 7-8 WEEKS FOR HIS NEW BACK GROUND CHECK! AND HE JUST RETIRED!! Did anyone else catch that call last week? I wish I could remember what he was now trying to get a job as, but I can’t. It was instructive and funny!
If I still had Rush 24/7 I could look it up, but I can’t afford it anymore. Energy Cost and Tax Increases have hurt me.
Can a proponent of this bill tell me why some gang member, thug, child molester or wanna be terrorist would use their real name when applying for their Z visa????
I’m having a hard time picturing that happening.
And, if their finger prints or face isn’t in a FEDERAL database, how can you prove they aren’t who they claim to be??
I apologize in advance for injecting reality into this debate. I know how the proponents hate that.
Retire,
Thanks for pointing out the link to Macsmind. It was a good read.
Danke.
Charlotte Area News:
The Gaston County jail has begun checking inmates’ immigration status as part of a partnership with national Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
On May 21, the Gaston County Sheriff’s Office received final approval from ICE, allowing the jail to hold people on immigration charges for up to 72 hours. Ten deputies received the authority and training to check immigration status in February, and the computers that can access ICE databases were installed in March.
Sheriff Alan Cloninger had hoped to have the program running by late March, but was awaiting this final approval.
Mecklenburg and Alamance counties also are part of the ICE program, and 15 other N.C. counties have applied, ICE spokesman Michael Gilhooly said.
Since April, the deputies have been checking inmates’ immigration status part-time, Cloninger said.
T.B. UPDATE:
The national media covered tuberculosis carrier Andrew Speaker wall-to-wall earlier this month. That hubbub has died down, but TB scares across the country continue. Why no follow-up on this national health crisis? Because calling attention to it might earn you the wrath of Geraldo, Lindsey Graham, Linda Chavez, President Bush, and the rest of the bigot card-players.
So be it.
Take a look at the latest case in Greenville, S.C.:
The number of workers exposed to tuberculosis at a Greenville, S.C., chicken plant has grown to 131, but state health officials cautioned Tuesday only one is suspected of having an active form of the infectious disease.
The S.C. Department of Health and Environmental Control began testing employees at the House of Raeford Farms plant late last month after the agency was told about the infected worker. So far, 286 employees who have been in contact with the worker have been tested.
The percentage of positive cases is believed to be high because many of the plant’s employees come from other countries where the disease may be more prevalent, said agency spokesman Thom Berry.
Translation: Illegal aliens. Or, as President Bush calls them, “newcomers.” Or, as Harry Reid calls them, “undocumented Americans.” Whatever you call them, they are people who have not been screened for infectious disease before entering the country. The Charlotte Observer reports that “more than 60 percent of line workers in the chicken industry are Hispanic. And experts say most of the workers probably entered the U.S. already infected.”
While not considered an immediate threat to Greenville residents, the number of infected workers reflects a concern about a growing health threat: immigrants increasingly carrying TB to the U.S.
“It’s become more of an imported disease,” said Dr. Jason Stout, an infectious disease specialist at Duke University who serves as one of North Carolina’s tuberculosis consultants.
House of Raeford employs about 650 workers at its Greenville plant who process chicken for stores and fast-food restaurants. Many of the workers live in small neighborhoods surrounding the plant.
Foreign-born residents accounted for 55 percent of TB cases nationwide in 2005 — the last year for which statistics were available. The greatest number of foreign born cases, 25 percent, or 1,942 cases, came from Mexico, followed by the Philippines, Vietnam, and India. In 1993, foreign-born residents made up 29 percent of reported TB cases.
Every year, thousands of illegal immigrants come to the Carolinas to work in poultry, construction and other industries. But undocumented workers are not the only ones entering the United States without being tested for TB. While refugees receive the tests, many immigrants traveling on tourist, business and student visas do not, according to experts.
“That is a major problem,” said Carol Pozsik, CEO of the National TB Controllers Association…
The Saga Continues….
Stevevvs,
I heard both of the Rush Limbaugh shows that you are talking about.
I listen to Rush via Internet streaming. I didn’t record the one with the Federal Agent that retired after 20+ years getting his background check. But I did save the one from today with Chertoff and Sessions.
What was even better than Chertoff’s comments was Roger pointing out the insanity of the “engineering” problems on smuggler’s gulch. If they can’t figure out the “engineering problems” for a 2 mile stretch, just imagine how long the whole fence will take!
And that doesn’t even take into consideration all the legal challenges that will surely crop up.
The southern border won’t be secured for at least 20 years. And no one is even talking about the northern border.
Maybe this helps those wondering about the Terrorist Option:
Giving Terrorists Options
Inexplicably, proponents of the Kennedy amnesty bill assume that its enactment will allow the federal government to identify these terrorists. On the contrary, the bill will make it easier for alien terrorists to operate in the United States by allowing them to create fraudulent identities with ease. To understand what will happen if the bill becomes law, assume the perspective of the illegal alien terrorist operating within the United States.
Within 180 days after the President signs the legislation, the Department of Homeland Security must start handing out amnesties, in the form of “probationary” Z visas. (No border security triggers need to be met; the amnesty comes first, according to Sections 1(a) and 601(f)(2) of the bill.) At that point, the terrorist can choose whichever of three options suits him best.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1513.cfm
as they say, read it all..
Apache,
Glad you heard it today. Roger is the former Mayor of San Diego, and a lawyer, he knows his stuff. He will be on Thursday too!
Ya, that “Engineering” Problem was a scream. Sessions was awesom. Got to go. One post is missing. I’ll try a smaller version:
Take a look at the latest case in Greenville, S.C.:
The number of workers exposed to tuberculosis at a Greenville, S.C., chicken plant has grown to 131, but state health officials cautioned Tuesday only one is suspected of having an active form of the infectious disease.
The S.C. Department of Health and Environmental Control began testing employees at the House of Raeford Farms plant late last month after the agency was told about the infected worker. So far, 286 employees who have been in contact with the worker have been tested.
The percentage of positive cases is believed to be high because many of the plant’s employees come from other countries where the disease may be more prevalent, said agency spokesman Thom Berry.
Translation: Illegal aliens. Or, as President Bush calls them, “newcomers.” Or, as Harry Reid calls them, “undocumented Americans.” Whatever you call them, they are people who have not been screened for infectious disease before entering the country. The Charlotte Observer reports that “more than 60 percent of line workers in the chicken industry are Hispanic. And experts say most of the workers probably entered the U.S. already infected.”
While not considered an immediate threat to Greenville residents, the number of infected workers reflects a concern about a growing health threat: immigrants increasingly carrying TB to the U.S.
“It’s become more of an imported disease,” said Dr. Jason Stout, an infectious disease specialist at Duke University who serves as one of North Carolina’s tuberculosis consultants.
House of Raeford employs about 650 workers at its Greenville plant who process chicken for stores and fast-food restaurants. Many of the workers live in small neighborhoods surrounding the plant.
Foreign-born residents accounted for 55 percent of TB cases nationwide in 2005 — the last year for which statistics were available. The greatest number of foreign born cases, 25 percent, or 1,942 cases, came from Mexico, followed by the Philippines, Vietnam, and India. In 1993, foreign-born residents made up 29 percent of reported TB cases.
Every year, thousands of illegal immigrants come to the Carolinas to work in poultry, construction and other industries. But undocumented workers are not the only ones entering the United States without being tested for TB. While refugees receive the tests, many immigrants traveling on tourist, business and student visas do not, according to experts.
“That is a major problem,” said Carol Pozsik, CEO of the National TB Controllers Association…
Apache,
I’ve tried two post, both lost in the Strata Sphere. Glad you heard them today. Listen Thursday too!
That is PRECISELY what I was trying to point out in my other posts. It is utter insanity to assume that all of the bad people will step forward and give up their real name!!
They will either stay in the so called “shadows”, or they will step forward and game the system. It is as simple as that. And only a bloody fool would believe otherwise.
It isn’t like gaming the system is that difficult. The terrorists don’t even take it seriously now. And this bill does nothing but make it easier to game.
Some of the 9-11 hijackers put “Hotel America” for their “residence” on their Visa applications. And they were approved!!!!!!!!!
I posted this once but haven’t seen it yet.
AJ, you are so seriously deluding yourself on this background check. I am a systems analyst and work extensively with databases. I have used several federal databases and have created some special use databases for the fed.
You are familiar with the expression GIGO aren’t you? Garbage in, Garbage out. Exactly what search criteria could you use on an illegal who came across the border illegally, uses a fake name and SSN and has never been fingerprinted in the US? The correct answer is NONE. It is not possible to get an accurate check on someone using bogus information. And I would add, that when you do background checks on FORIEGNERS, you usually need to include response from a foreign country. Have you ever tried to call Somalia for a background check on a Somali? They don’t even have a functioning government for god’s sake! What in bejesus name are you thinking?
You are comparing rational logical adults to the people who don’t believe we didn’t land on the moon because they don’t believe these background checks can be done?!?
If that is your true opinion, you don’t know what you’re talking about at all! I’m really starting to wonder what’s behind that anomynity.
If someone had sat me down 6 months ago and said, “I need you write a piece of legislation that on the surface appears to be good, but in reality will make the illegal immigration problem WORSE and make it easier for terrorists to get into our Country”, this current bill is the bill I would have written.
Maybe I give myself too much credit. This current bill is the bill I would have tried to write, to meet the requirement above. I am not sure I could have done as good a job as our politicians.
We are living in some very, very strange times.
Steve,
I’ll listen tomorrow. Should I record it?
AJ: this almost isn’t fair anymore, I’m starting to feel sorry for you!
Since I first started programming FORTRAN in 1974, to working with mega-SQL DB’s based around WANG systems in the late 80’s, to helping design Data Storage critera for TS/SCI/Code Word DB’s in the early 90’s, to what I do now, in my “civilian” life, I’ve dealt with Computers, Programming Languages, DB’s, Data Storage and Retrieval!
I helped pioneer the usage of the old “Grids” for use in the field by Tactical forces; to using cutting edge Sun & SPARC machines in the early 90’s, that the Civilian World has YET to see!
In addition, my Aunt was a Dean of Compter Science, from the mid-70’s up to when she retired a few years ago, at a major college in Pennsylvania; we grew up around her talking about BASIC up thru C, C+, C++, Java, C#, .NET, etc.!
AJ, do you think I got my Current job, NOT knowing anything about computers? Are you kidding me?
AJ, you work for NASA for god’s sake, you know nothing about the IAFIS system, EXCEPT what you can Google!
I don’t care if you know how much Oracle is paid, I, myself PERSONALLY, placed a lot of those people working in Oracle, on those systems!
Geez, you are a stubborn, blinders on young man sometimes!
AJ, the IAFIS DB is a DAMN “Fingerprint” DB, with some Criminal Record capability, tied to the Fingerprints!
It is NOT a “background” check system for god’s sake!
If your fingerprints weren’t some of the 50-odd million sets of Fingerprints that have been collected over the past 60 years by Local, State, and Federal Agencies, and digitized, and put into IAFIS, you are NOT going to show up in a damn check of the system!
In addition to all that, from the time I joined the Corps for the first time, in 82, my job required me to be intimately familiar with REAL “Background” checks, what they entail, how they are carried out, how much they cost, and who does them!
I was the Security Clearance Background Check Officer, for just about every command I was in AJ! Man oh man, you’re killing me…
In my civilian life, it has continued, and I have access to the most uptodate Background Check services, nationwide, and the most comprehensive, and I use them weekly in my current job!
I KNOW how long they take, I KNOW how much they cost, and I KNOW their limitations and their weaknesses!
Geez, you really are completely and thorougly blinded by this topic AJ, completely!
Running an ILLEGAL’s fingerprints, thru IAFIS, when they apply for a Z visa or whatever, IS NOT A “BACKGROUND” check, no matter what it’s Data Crunch capability is, these days!
That’s a damn Fingerprint Check, that’s it!
There are a whole HOST of crimes, that you can commit, at the Local and State level, that don’t require the taking of Fingerprints, and you thus don’t go into IAFIS, AJ; it is NOT a “background” check System; it is a darn Fingerprint Storage system, that’s it!
There is NO SINGLE, SOLITARY National Database, even in the post 9/11 World, where you can access Every single Datapoint Needed, to do a Comprehensive Background check on a person!
IT DOESN’T EXIST!
To do an accurate “Background Check” you, have to check Local, State, and Federal Criminal Records checks, based upon addresses provided; you have to check DMV records, you have to check Credit Records, you have to check National Sexual Offender Register Records, you have to check Education Histories separately, you have to do a Skip trace on addresses/SSN’s, etc., etc.
THAT IS A BACKGROUND Check AJ; not what they’re planning on doing to these ILLEGALS; that’s a damn Fingerprint DB check against the IAFIS system only; and if they are NOT in it, they come up clean!
Guess what AJ, a check of the IAFIS wouldn’t have turned up the Fort Dix Plotters, despite the fact that three of the brothers had a combined total 78 Local Traffic violations!
It wouldn’t have turned up some of the 9/11 Hijackers, for gosh’s sake.
I personally, have been in IAFIS, and it’s predecessors, since I was 8 years old!
And I was entered again, when I was 24 years old; and again when I was 30 years old!
Guess what AJ, they “ran” a fingerprint check on me, when I was in my mid-30’s, when I was doing “something” for the Government,
and they couldn’t find me in the darn thing, even though I had been put in there at least THREE times in my life!
And it hasn’t gotten any better, nor more complete, no matter how fast you think you know it can search Fingerprints now!
Engrave it in stone AJ; NO SINGLE, SOLITARY DB, anywhere, that contains ALL relevant data on an individual, to do a Background Check; doesn’t exist; it’s Science Fiction for movies and TV series like Profiler and the such!
What the new Immigration Bill is proposing, is a cursory, Fingerprint check, against IAFIS and it’s planned successor, NGIS; that is NOT a “background check” AJ, even though you, and they, are calling it that!
That is Window Dressing!
Geesh……
Every time you try to debate me on these points AJ, you lose…it’s time to stop!
I just posted a long reply to AJ, and it got caught in the spam filter, because he frustrated me so badly, I used a couple of four letter words.
But I so thoroughly deconstruct his post to me above, I doubt if he’ll leave it thru the Spam filter.
Oh well, doesn’t matter, he lost the debate again.
I’ve tried 3 different debate strategies with the proponents. The fact based, appeal to reason has been my least successful. They aren’t interested in facts and they turn a deaf ear towards them. The only strategy that showed even marginal results was the appeal to emotion. Just food for thought.
I’m not saying to let up on the facts. Hammer away!! I know I intend to keep it up. Just don’t expect any results with the proponents who argue here on AJ’s blog. They couldn’t care less about facts. The most we can do is influence a casual reader.
Don’t feel alone Dale. I’m getting caught in the spam filter too and I didn’t use any four letter words at all in those posts. All I used was four letter logic.
All I used was four letter logic.
Good one. That made me laugh.
Careful Apache, you’ll be next joining me and Dale in the green room of this dysfunctional family reunion.
No doubt. I keep waiting for it. I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet.
– begin quote –
He would need to have been the hardest working boy in America, for — according to documents that employers filed with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Social Security Administration (SSA) — his efforts were not merely Herculean, they were miraculous.
He was born in September 1991, and by the time he was 7 — according to W-2 reports bearing his Social Security Number (SSN) — he had taken multiple jobs. From 1998 to 2001, employers filed more than 3,900 W-2s using his SSN.
By 2002, when he was 12, as measured by W-2 reports, the boy was holding down 919 jobs in 42 states.
But, as you might have already guessed, this boy was not really America’s most prodigious worker. He was one of America’s most prodigious victims of SSN misuse. Other people were using his SSN to work in the United States.
The basic facts of his story were published in a September 2005 audit report by SSA’s inspector general. (That report, by the way, did not indicate whether the child was male or female. As a rhetorical convenience, I refer to him here as a male.)
This child’s story is extraordinary, but not singular. The inspector general discovered that in tax year 2002, there were 11 SSNs that were used more than 400 times.
In fact, past SSA inspector general reports have discovered that certain employers, year after year, file massive numbers of W-2s that bear fraudulent SSNs or valid SSNs that don’t belong to the employee using it. These W-2s go into what SSA calls the Earnings Suspense File (ESF), where SSA deposits what it calls “no-match” W-2s.
About 9 million of these are filed per year, and SSA Inspector General Patrick O’Carroll told Congress last year “the chief cause” of them “is unauthorized work by non-citizens.”
Now, meet one of the great absurdities of U.S. law: If SSA were to discover that someone was misusing your SSN like they misused the SSN of the boy whose number showed up on 3,900 W-2s over four years, SSA could not tell you about it. “Congress has not provided authorization to disclose this information in the situation you described,” SSA spokesman Mark Lassiter told me. Nor would SSA refer the case to a law enforcement agency. “This tax return information is also generally restricted from disclosure to law enforcement agencies by Section 6103 of the Internal Revenue Code,” said Lassiter.
– end quote –
I wonder how many credit cards have been applied for using his SSN?
Source for the above -
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/TerenceJeffrey/2007/06/21/americas_hardest_working_boy
:Can a proponent of this bill tell me why some gang member, thug, child molester or wanna be terrorist would use their real name when applying for their Z visa????
I’m having a hard time picturing that happening.
And, if their finger prints or face isn’t in a FEDERAL database, how can you prove they aren’t who they claim to be??
I apologize in advance for injecting reality into this debate. I know how the proponents hate that. ”
The fact is if they committed any half way serious crime their prints would most likely be in the database. Thats the whole point
IAFIS is not some far fetched star trek thing. It is reality and has been used years. IT is very effective
“I’ve tried 3 different debate strategies with the proponents. The fact based, appeal to reason has been my least successful. They aren’t interested in facts and they turn a deaf ear towards them. The only strategy that showed even marginal results was the appeal to emotion. Just food for thought.
I’m not saying to let up on the facts. Hammer away!! I know I intend to keep it up. Just don’t expect any results with the proponents who argue here on AJ’s blog. They couldn’t care less about facts. The most we can do is influence a casual reader. ”
Good Grief Apache you think alot of yourself. If someone doesnt agree with you it s because they are not interested in facts? I find in the real world people can come to different conclusions based on t he same facts and influenced by various other personal experinces, education all of which the facts are filtered through
“According to the FBI:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/faqs.html
How long does it take to get a background check once the FBI receives the request? ”
Good greif this is completly different. THe do this in 24 hours they are not going to be mailing stuff to the FBI. They will almost immediate access. If you know someone at your local Police station go down there and see how quick its done
BLU, “The fact is if they committed any half way serious crime their prints would most likely be in the database.”
You forgot one TINY little caveat. If they were CAUGHT committing any half way serious crime…..AND that still doesn’t address the problem of clearing foreingers through their home countries. You are so hell bent on being for this legislation because the catholic church is in desperate need of millions of new parisheners, and we all know why, that you would make a deal with the devil himself to make it happen, which is exactly what you are doing.
Aj:
I don’t have time to read all the comments and do not have to. Some people are sooooo predictable.
But thank you for hanging in there. And sooner or later the people doing the bitching over there on the hard right are either going to have to come up with something better or they are going to start looking even more ridiculous than they already do..
Nonstop bitching is not a solution folks.
Bikerken,
Not my fault you developed GIGO. Unless you worked IAFIS you have nothing to say except since nothing is foolproof we should do nothing.
It is always the last desperate bastion of the hypochondriacs. It won’t work on a small fraction so forget the 99% it does work on.
Like I said, you and your ilk have shutdown the neurons on this subject. The backgroubnd checks can be processed as promised. We keep reminding you there is no tooth fairy and no perfection and you keep wishing it were so.
Appache,
SSA is not the FBI and a Social Security Card does not invoke a backround check. I know it is tough for you, but try and stay on the subject.
For the rest, IAFIS has been expanded. I will point you here for some information on the current state of the art. It ain\’t GIGO.
Copy of a comment I left over at CQ:
“I see the deniers still looking for perfection (and probably the tooth fairy). IAFIS is massive and is the largest criminal ID system in the world. It will find a criminal record. But no one can find a criminal without a record.
So the argument is since we cannot find criminals without records we should do nothing about the onese we know have records and we still cannot get deported by our FUBAR’s existing (yet magically effective) laws??
And people wonder why I nicknamed the opposition to the bill ‘amnesty hypochondriacs’! If IAFIS is 95% accurate (that means it clears the 80+% who are free of violent crimes and and find the 15% or so who do have records) that means the problem we have is not 12+ million people to sift through but only 600K. Still a large number – but a HUGE step forward.
My guess is it is much more effective than 95%. But here’t the flip side. In my example of above (way conservative on the numbers of violent criminals in the population) we find 600K a problem left to deal with, but we find 1.8 million criminals ID’d and on the way out. So I asl again? Are we going to do nothing because we are never going to get a 100% solution and NO ONE can identify a criminal who doesn’t have a record.
One last reminder: “Innocent Until Proven Guilty”. Remember our cultural foundations. Only the Europeans assume guilty until proven innocent.”
Many of the same immigration hypochondriacs pointing out the impossibility of 24 hour background checks have allready agreed that a 24 hour background check is a reasonable period to wait to procure a handgun. In fact you purchase any weapon now rifle, shotgun, handgun, etc. and you have a criminal background check performed almost immediatly. The databases are still a bit un synched yet and the AIFIS is a little slow still; however, these are technical challenges that are very acheivable in short time frame. We are there allready is my point. Even on weekends when there are numerous gun shows going on and thousands of firearms changing hands, the Federal Government still is able to check everyone in a reasonable amount of time. It is not perfect but it can be worked out.
And yes, Cheung did fall through the cracks.
AJ said -
SSA is not the FBI and a Social Security Card does not invoke a backround check. I know it is tough for you, but try and stay on the subject.
I admit I have a problem with leading people to what I consider to be the obvious conclusion and then not “saying” it. My problem is that I consider it to be so obvious, I don’t see the point in saying it.
The article I cited represents 9 million FELONIES!
Will those names be in your precious IAFIS database????????
The fact is if they committed any half way serious crime their prints would most likely be in the database. Thats the whole point
If true, then why would these people come forward?? Why wouldn’t they just stay in the “shadows”?
What if a wanna be terrorist, who hasn’t committed his act of terror yet, wanted a nice pretty federal ID. He has a real dilemma then. Should he use his real name or a fake name? Decisions. Decisions.
Bikerken,
Your snide comments to Biglsu were oozing religious prejudice and ignorance. Why should you be taken seriously?
The Preferences Are Coming – Twelve Million of Them
By Lloyd Billingsley
June 21, 2007
The 12 million or more who entered the United States illegally, and would gain United States citizenship under the current immigration proposal, Senate Bill 1348, will qualify for race preferences and privileges for which the majority of Americans are not eligible. This is not fair.
That is the view of Ward Connerly of the Sacramento-based American Civil Rights Institute, a veteran of battles against racial preferences in California, Washington and Michigan, and who believes that “race and ethnic preferences ought to be wrong under any circumstances.” The current immigration measure, Connerly believes, would constitute a massive endowment of such preferences.
“This is huge,” Connerly told Frontpage. “All this talk of going to the back of the line is B.S.. They would go to the front of the line. The minute they are Americans, they move in front of white males and in some cases white women.” Legalized Hispanic immigrants, Connerly says, would also gain privileges over immigrants from nations such as Russia because they would be part of an officially sanctioned “underrepresented minority.”
“We have to somehow make the American public aware of this. We are, right now, the Paul Revere on this. There is a problem here.”
The problem, according to Connerly, lies in “the nexus between illegal immigration and preferences.” That issue had not been part of the immigration debate until last Friday, when Connerly published an open letter in the Washington Times, signed by various individuals, some of whom disagree with him on immigration policy per se. Signatories include Grover Norquist, Linda Chavez, and civil-rights advocate Joe Hicks.
“This is one of those things that people have not thought through.” Connerly said. “A group that has never had the historic discrimination of blacks would be given the status of an underrepresented minority in this country.” …
Just another of the many unheralded benefits of the amnesty bill.
Macker, being at the ‘center of the storm’ so to speak in not only the immigration mess but also the catholic churches problems, these issues are discussed locally very much and they are very much connected. When Cardinal Bernard Law in LA, who it was recently found out, was knowingly shifting around pedo-priests from one parish to another, comes out as an advocate of opening the border to millions of more catholics, it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to see why. The Catholic church is paying HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars to countless victims of these perverts posing as men of god. They are bleeding green. You don’t think maybe they have a financial interest in bringing in as many Mexicans, of whom many are catholic to become tithe paying members? God is holy, the church is holy, perverts who commit horrible acts under this cover are not. It is an ugly truth what is happening here but that is not going to keep me from saying it. Snide, I don’t think so. True, hell yes!
Bikerken ,
I doubt the LA cardinal ( not Law) was motivated by money. Remember, your camp insists the immigrants are all poor, uneducated and in need of services. I rather imagine he was following a biblical injunction.
Finally, it needs to be said that if the GOP survives, and it will, we can thank GWB for not alienating the legal Hispanic population. That is part of the big picture.
You are correct Mack. Law had already resigned. I was speaking about him being in an LA because that where the trials are being held. It was Mahoney, who was covering for Law that was the LA cardinal. It’s so easy to get these people mixed up when they all behave the same and end up the subject of the same trial.
“I rather imagine he was following a biblical injunction.”
Thats what BLU said that got me to mention it to begin with. While I believe in god, I am not a church going person and I don’t believe that “biblical” is a good justification for allowing anyone in the world who can make it here to come. There were a lot of real catastrophes that were biblical. As a matter of fact, if you read the bible, there are all sorts of stories about the laws of unintended consequences where good faith is concerned.
Just so we’re clear, I have nothing against the catholic church, I think they have done a lot of great things. I do have a lot of justified anger against some of the people who have soiled it’s name through their own personal behaviour or use it to justify their own ends.